coop forum?

Yeah, I figured it had just taken me a couple of days to realize the change had been made!

Most of us get weekends off... sometimes we just need a nudge to make us realize admin should get a break also! I've never seen DG admin do anything and just "walk away." I appreciate the way this site is handled. :-)

Lulu, could you please post that suggestion in this discussion thread, http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/921953/ ? That's definitely an alternative that wouldn't require any additional effort from admin. :-)

I read this entire thread very carefully and learned some things about a few members here that I didn't know before. Unfortunately, for all the posts in this thread, there weren't a lot of ideas offered on how to solve the problem. Anyway, here are the themes I noticed:

Have you ever had to ban someone from a website that they love? It's not fun and I don't like to do it. There is one member who is a chronic offendor who has been active on DG since the year 2000. You want the honors of banning her?









These are a lot easier said than done. I don't think you understand the difficulty of making the decision to remove someone, especially those who are genuinely nice people but can't seem to obey the simple rules we put into place.

Ignoring people who have been harmed by a bad organizer is also a LOT easier said than done. You don't know us very well if you think we can easily turn our back on people who are having trouble.



I don't see the relevance to this question, but the answer is that we currently have 7,357 subscribed members.




This is the most powerful argument I have heard for keeping the co-ops.



Another powerful argument in favor of the co-op forum over the marketplace/classifieds.




I agree I have a lot of work to do in the marketplace, and I admit it hasn't had the highest priority for me. I spend more time dealing with community
issues and fun features like the photo contest, Go Gardening and PlantFiles than I do in the Marketplace. The classifieds have been around for years but it still has that annoying bug where it shows a next page when there are no further posts. I guess if I cared about revenue more than fun community features, then I would get these (classifieds, marketplace) done faster.

But I hear you and I will make time to get to these features.





Unhelpful comments. If you're unhappy with Dave's Garden, my advice is to mind how you go and don't let the door hit you on the way out.



Thank you.






You're right, it would have been preferable to open this up for discussion before-hand. I underestimated the passion that you all would have felt about this issue. If I knew then what I knew now, I would have posted first and told you our problems and put the burden of you to figure out a way to solve them.



The first actual suggestion for a way around this problem. It's probably not the silver bullet, but it IS an idea and for that I am grateful.

Thank you Dave for continuing to think about this and filtering through to the suggestions made:-).
Bev

Dave, I understand you did what you thought was best. Please reconsider your decision.
Thank you,
Kathy

Dave, thank you for taking the time to carefully read and respond, even on a Sunday.

There seem to have been 2 separate issues with the co-ops: people "fronting" a co-op for a vendor to get around the "no vendors" rule, and too many Dmails and spillage into other areas of DG when co-ops go bad... Which was the main problem, or did both contribute equally to the decision?

Rather than banning members who are repeat offenders in offering co-ops that don't follow the letter and intent of the rules, would it be possible to ban them only from starting new threads in the co-op forum?

I realize the above suggestion might be irrelevant, unless you intended to open the discussion to constructive "fix the co-op forum problems" suggestions...

Dave-I definitley appreciate this more than the 1st comment and understand why that one was made. I do think that helpful suggestions are the way we need to go-but we were all upset at first, as you were in your first post, and as we are human, unfortunately our feelings get the best of us sometimes. We are a passionate buch which is one of the things I love about DG-the passion/compassion-that is what makes a community...

critterologist:

Those are the two exact issues that cause us the most grief from the co-op forum.

Jordonkittyjo:

You know my concerns. I can't reconsider unless we have a solution to the two problems we have.



If the posters in this thread would direct their energy toward finding a solution to those two problems, we can make progress and perhaps even bring the co-ops back again (for the third time). I'd like nothing better; I have participated in many co-ops here at DG and I love them. I know that Terry has organized a number of them quite successfully. We like the feature, we just hate the problems that we are dealing with. find a solution to the problems and we'll keep them on DG.



No, that's not possible.

Yes-lets see what we can do, instead of chastising-after all we are all adults-hopefully most of us have calmed down and can be rational:)

You were upset at losing your co-ops.

I was upset because I was attacked with baseless accusations, my motives were questioned and my character was brought into question by people that have no business making such comments. I hope you see the difference here.



Indeed.

My garden isn't harrowing itself and I have wheat to sow and more trees to plant. I'll come back this evening and hope to find some constructive ideas on how to have a co-op forum here at DG for the future.

How about another new thread so we can redirect our focus? That way, people who are new to this discussion don't have to read through all of the above to come to the place where we've (hopefully) taken a more constructive turn.

Dave, would you be willing to post a new thread about looking for solutions, or may I start one and quote this as your answer to whether or not you'd be willing to re-open the co-op forum?

"I'd like nothing better; I have participated in many co-ops here at DG and I love them. I know that Terry has organized a number of them quite successfully. We like the feature, we just hate the problems that we are dealing with. find a solution to the problems and we'll keep them on DG."

Since the issue here is open for discussion, and there are so many of us that tempers are bound to flare, may i suggest we nominate Stacey and Jill to represent us and our suggestions and concerns to Dave?

I can understand those are hard issues to deal with. Again, trying to please the masses while fixing the few bad apples....I can appreciate your willingness to come to a resolution.

I think that the vendors using a shill is mainly DG member vendors. And while I don't think they are all bad, I do think they are the main offenders.....I think I know who they are and the one member you are talking about and can understand your reluctance to boot them off. I don't think that is the solution either, but I also don't think that organizer/vendor should be allowed to run any further co-ops. I am sure it is really hard to get a handle on who is fronting and who isn't and that is the challenge at hand.

As for bad feelings spilling into other forums that is a harder issue to tackle. It would be nice if we could all act our age (myself being one of the younger ones), but these are people that thrive on drama, always have and always will. I will think long and hard about this one.....

Thank you Dave for taking time out of your weekend to come in here-we really do appreciate it...

I am fine with that-I have calmed down myself, and yes Dave I do see the difference, my point was simply that tempers were high yesterday....

Jo, thanks, but I think I'd rather have a thread where we can all post our suggestions and comments for admin to read rather than trying to figure out what I think Dave needs to know. :-)

I'm trying to brainstorm here... there has to be a "fix" for this!

Having "watched" this discussion and having been saddened myself, by the loss of the co-op forum, I must say, DG administration has had the highest level of professionalism here. I just wanted to say, thank you for allowing us to have a voice. We are very lucky to have administrators like all of you! through the good and the bad, know that I respect what you all do and give us here at DG. Thank you.

Jill, I was thinking we could all discuss it with you and Stacey, then you two can take what we come up with to dave

Whew! There's a chance we can have the co-op forum again but it's up to all of us to come up with a solution, not Dave.

Thank you, Dave.

We should all congregate on the same thread to find a solution that will satisfy Dave. I like critterologist's idea of a "Fix the co-op" thread.

I can say that one thing I have noticed-if I see something that someone posted and I think shouldn't be there for obvious reasons, I have often dmailed to ask that they remove it for the common good-it has worked every time but one time-one of the recent "public" arguments.

Jill-I am fine either way-I don't think we would be picking what to post, but I have noticed that some of the posts have a little constructive with a lot of hurt, so it would just be posting the constructive-again, I am fine with whatever....

Since Dave is willing to work with us on a resonable level, it is out obligation if we want these back to fix what is broken-it is obvious if they were spending a bulk of their day deling with complaints from this forum that it was broken-so peeps what are we going to do to fix it?? That is the question.

She has one in place for suggestions-she posted a link several posts above

I think Dave is out enjoying the day now... How about if I post a new thread and link it to Dave's post above about being willing to consider solutions (rather than quoting Dave without his express permission)... I think that will work... ?

Yes!

I wasn't aware that Dave no longer owned DG. That must have happened while I was out of the loop. I did notice the membership fee had gone up but figured it must have been necessary....I was just glad that I was finally able to renew. To Dave's credit, I haven't been able to tell the difference. Not at all like when Spike sold GW to Ivillage and everyone was immediately inundated with so many ads it would lock your machine up.

It's still Dave's Garden.

Dave, Thank you for that very good response. If it is still a possibility that co-ops can be reinstated, perhaps turning the policing and vetting of them over to a volunteer comittee of long term paid subscribers and experienced co-op hosts would be a workable solution. The members of the comittee could alternate according to some scheme periodically. Unhappy people could then write or post to a comittee of their peers and not involve the administration.

These last few post are good to read. Now there is real communication...and that that can lead to solutions. That doesn't mean co-ops will return, but this is how a community fixes things.

That is the sprite of the Dave's Garden that I have known all these years.

The thread I started previously is for suggested *alternatives* to the co-op forum... that's still a valid avenue for brainstorming and may yield some good ideas regardless for improving the classified forum and the marketplace.

Here's a new thread for "Fixing the co-op forum": http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/921974/

:-D

My comment about kicking me off was in reference my apparent violation of the 'no vendor' rule on co-ops. I confessed and expected immediate consequences. Glad I am still here :~)

I am not all that unhappy with the decision to stop co-ops here.

Would anyone care to brainstorm ideas here before we start throwing stuff out on a new thread? An "anything goes", good ideas, goofy ideas, simple and complex?

For instance....
- Making the "complaints" a specific thread of their own and allow the "complain-ees" to also respond publicly.
- Shipping large amounts of rotting plant material to those who can't handle the co-ops and the inherent risk.
-A somewhat more prominent sign of AT YOUR OWN RISK (and removing the "contact admin" link from that page).
-Creating a separate site for co-ops that is not under the DG umbrella

Um.... c'mon folks.... more ideas....

I think that wht we truly need is self policing of some fashion-

Pagan-there are more ideas on how to fix it, but they are in other threads as well that are ONLY for constructive comments....

That's why I suggested doing what might not be quite so constructive - but perhaps more creative &/or stimulating - here!

Now worries-just didnt' want you to think we weren't having input:)

If you want silly we could send them a some cheese;) Get it;)

Send out the wah-mbulance?

I hope the meaning of my comment above was not mistaken, just an example of a possible abuse that may have lead to this. Dave, your answer to that group of quotes "These are a lot easier said than done" was the point I was (perhaps poorly) trying to make. I completely agree that the degree of monitoring required to prevent abuses isn't practical, and nipping it in the bud, so to speak, seems like your only plausible option.

Just wanting to be clear, that while a little bummed about it, I support and completely understand your decision.
Neal

I am sorry for the comments that I made in anger yesterday..I, too, had NO IDEA that the admins were getting bogged with so many complaints...like it was mentioned earlier, I have seen VERY few "negative" feedbacks, and assumed that things were going much more swimmingly than they were.
It just brings to mind the old adage: you can't please all of the people all of the time

If you have any help to offer to keep co-ops, please chare them in the fixing the co-op thread-if you want to keep them that is....

Dave - you sow your own wheat?!?

Sorry if I sounded contrary, I've always taken up for the underdog, and I'm disappointed for those who LOVE their coops! Maybe someone CAN come up with a constructive ideas for their sakes!

Wow, I just now saw the thread about the co-ops closing, even though the posting was done on Nov 5th! I woud have thought that it would have been posted more conspicuously. Well, getting plants and supplies cheaper was my main reason for joining Dave's because I liked the idea of volume discounts and being able to get plants that were different then the ones ofered at the only two stores in my area, WalMart and Lowes.
I've never had a problem with a co-op and am grateful for that. I can certainly see the potential for problems, though.
Oh well, sorry for the loss, it will certainly make Dave's a less interesting place.

Just my two cents here regarding RU's. Those of you who are vendors/own businesses and attend RU's miles away, you left out the tax deductable/business expense part.

Regular people just can't afford the pay for the gas, hotels, food , etc to attend RU's. I've only attended one and it was 2 hours away from me so the gas cost alone was almost $40.00 non deductible.

This message was edited Nov 9, 2008 1:48 PM

Hmm, I'm new here, so there's probably something I just don't get. Forgive me if this is way off base please!

What is the down-side of letting vendors run/offer co-ops? They're more set up to handle it, you eliminate the work for the middle man, and the source is obvious and out in the open.

If something goes wrong, you know exactly who is at fault, and hopefully they deal with it well and promptly as any business should. If not, the consequences here on Dave's would be immediate bad reviews, something any vendor presumably wouldn't want to risk, once they've seen the benefits of all they business they can get here.

There are alot of down sides and a whole can of worms woudl be opened. That is why Dave created the classified and then the dg market and if you look back throughthe pots on th eDvae forums you will find that the vendors all participated in the set up of the market place and voted on it and Dave has phone calls and dicussions with the vendors and the use of classified and the market place was the best way to go for the whole community of those that took part and voted.