coop forum?

What does this mean?

Please say it isn't so!! I was just on a great brug co-op that made it possible for me to have some of these wonderful plants that I otherwise would not have EVER gotten a chance to grow. There have been things on the co-ops that I would never have heard about otherwise. I also really enjoyed the chat threads about the various co-ops and got some great ideas and information that otherwise would not have been available to me. Please, Please do not penalize everyone for the actions of a few. It states very clearly that they are "at your own risk"

It is of course the decision of DG admin, but it seems to me that there will always be people that make it their purpose in life to cause problems. By allowing this to happen it encourages that behaviour so that they will go on other forums and do the same thing. By specifically naming the DG marketplace as an option I would bet that it will be the next target for these people.

I have re-read the information at the top of the co-ops forum and reluctantly come to the conclusion that since co-ops are not profitable to the website that they are not wanted. I would offer a different view. If it were not for the co-ops "getting my feet wet" I would not even know that some of these things existed and go looking for more. In a sense that makes the co-op forum very profitable indeed. If there were no new "demand" there would not be a need for "supply" would there? This would result in less $$ coming in for ads not more.

I agree with you! Some people like to cause hardships for others, just to be able to think they have a little power! NOT alluding to the DG Admin. !

Bbrookrd, thank you for this thread, and it's good to see you.
. I learned about the co-op forum closing through dmail a couple of days ago; that announcement doesn't appear on my co-op forum page...this is what I see....so why is the closing being kept secret?

Co-ops Discussion Forum

See only open/unsolved threads.
Getting great deals on plants, seeds and gardening supplies is now easier than ever. The co-op forum is now closed, but we invite you to check out the DG Marketplace where you can find hundreds of plants, bulbs and seeds available from reputable merchants and members.

Looking to sell? List your extra plants and seeds for sale quickly and easily in the Marketplace! We also offer classified ads, where vendors or members can take out a two-week ad to list items for sale.

I am extremely saddened by the loss of co-ops. I have not found anything on Marketplace that matches the prices and selection in co-ops, and like tetley, participation in co-ops has opened new gardening prospects for me as well as established wonderful, long lasting friendships. The good has always outweighed the bad, and I've been in co-ops that were sour and gleaned me dead plants, just as I've been in incredible ones that filled my garden.

The marketplace is for vendors. Co-ops are for real people, individuals working together for a common goal, not one person (company) serving others. I hope this is not already decided and I hope if it is, we can as small groups of individuals, find a way to continue to buy and share together. :-(


Edited to add: I see I misread the top of the thread; my brain continued to read what I had always read. Magic of the brain...still...I am sad.




This message was edited Nov 8, 2008 8:45 AM

Well said 4paws!!

Unfortunately, the decision is final.

We've had two (failed) attempts to allow co-ops here, and both times, they were the proverbial "victims of their own success" - too many organizers bit off more than they could chew and too many vendors were attracted to the ready-and-willing buyers they found here, so they ran quasi-co-ops with "shill" organizers they hand-picked for the job.

The last time we shuttered the forum, we really didn't have any viable alternatives to offer members. Now we do: the Marketplace and classified ads are both easy ways that members can buy in bulk and offer the extras for however little or much profit they choose.

Vendors can offer discounts and sell direct to DG customers, without worrying about keeping up a pretense.

We encourage all past and future co-op organizers to consider using either or both of these methods if you are interested in getting a bulk discount, and offering the extras on the open market.

I just think it is really sad when the majority are punished for the minority-Lets say over the last year there were 1000 peopl involved in co-ops, and 20 were whiners, does that justify the other 980 being punished??

Ditto!!

Great post 4paws.

Terry-I don't have $5000 to do that-that is an average of my 3 co-ops

I just think it is sad is all and I am glad that we are allowed to express our opinion, it just sucks that my garden will suffer as I can't afford $20 for the things I get in co-ops for $4

There are at least two options available: invite the vendor to sell direct here and you can buy along with everyone else, without the hassles of collecting money, repackaging and sending out boxes.

Or start out smaller, purchasing the plants you want at a discount, and reselling the extras for a small profit. As you make a little profit on one purchase, you can use it to bankroll the next one, and so on.

Looks like the Dave's that I joined is gone.

I had posted this on another thread "Personally, I have not used the DG marketplace or the classified ads and have no intention of doing so, especially now. I may be way off base but with DG being bought out it seems that the "profit margin" for the website is starting to be more important than the sense of community we had before. There were predictions of this but I took a wait and see attitude and it seems that the predictions are coming true."

The classified ads were introduced back in 2006: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/623916/ At $5 an ad, I'd guess this service barely breaks even; it is offered mainly as a service to the community.

The Marketplace was introduced at the request of several members who wanted an alternative to eBay. With its minimal selling fees, it's not something that is making money hand-over-fist for anyone here, although we do hope the vendors and members who use it are happy with how it is working.

At the end of the day, this is still the same DG I joined in 2001, albeit with a lot more members, and a lot of features and improvements built by Dave for the community--most of them at absolutely no cost to the members who benefit from them.

I only participated in one Coop, but I was very satisfied. I have no intention of buying from the marketplace, they are usually to high for my pocketbook! I wonder if the same people who are "whining" (quote),
are the same ones complaining about all the fun stuff on other forums!

The classified ad section is great for what it is. I've used it with limited success. Last year I bought 5000 glads thinking I could raise a little money for my dog rescue. I broke even and gave a lot of glads away.

It's a huge risk to buy perishables and hope they can sell before they spoil. I'm not in that financial position, though I've put myself in it often (and don't like to think about the loss, so I don't but try to avoid the position again.).

If, when I am ready to gather some friends again for a group buy, will it be against the AUP to post a thread inviting others to join in the appropriate forum? I've seen (I think) folks ask for others to buy with them in plant trading. All the business would take place off the threads beyond that interest post. In the plant or seed trading forum, it's possible to close the thread when enough participants have been gathered.

I would like to find a way for us to still work together. There are folks I'd like not cross paths with much if not for our love of great deals and I would miss seeing them. It's like that annual bazaar or flea market or whatever that the community comes out for - you only see the folks once a year, but oh, how you enjoy it when you do.

:-)

This is a truly a sad decision for many DG members. Me especially.

Could we have a Coop Announcement Forum which would just list the source, rules and updates from the host? All orders correspondence, chat would be submitted directly via d-mail to the host Thus we would not have to read any nasty remarks between host and participants. However that would greatly eliminate the excitement and frenzy that is such a joy to be part of on an open forum. I love all the knowledge gleaned while reading the chat about the much anticipated plants. Just check out the recent discussion on the Amaryllis coop as an example that was just run, and, ever so well, I might add.

I don't want to wade through the classifieds to find a coop unless you could give them a special section. I have had great luck with the direct vendor coops that people like 4Paws and Bleek have run together, so I am not adverse to that type. But aside from the couple of lousy ones, there have been some great coops run by some very dedicated DG members who, by their efforts, have brightened many a garden by their huge and generous efforts. My thanks to you all. Patti

Man.... Being on a limited budget the co-ops really helpd out.

I was wonsering the same thing-maybe posting interest and your email addy so all the other parts take place off DG??

don't forget that you can open a "group" elsewhere--you can also vett the members;)

4paws, sorry--other than on a VERY limited basis, we can't allow bulk purchases to be organized in other forums. An example of what would be permissible is a dmail asking a friend or two to split a package of [whatever]. Beyond that, we will not allow bulk purchases to be announced or organized in any forum, or we'll wind up with even more problems with self-promotion posts than we already have.

You can always take out an ad, announcing that you'd like to buy "XYZ" items, and people can contact you if they are interested. Depending on how much time you allow, you can probably wrap up most of the details with a single two-week ad, which limits your risk of pre-buying without knowing if anyone else is interested.

For vendors who use an organizer to announce their "DG-members-only" specials in the co-op forum, they can use the marketplace or classifeds to accomplish the same thing.

Yes, they'll have to pay for the privilege, but the cost is nominal, and it is only fair to the vendors who currently help sponsor the site by purchasing advertising and forum sponsorships.

It occurs to me that in addition to those that just enjoy creating drama the same ones that are whining about the co-ops are probably the ones that are trying to sell things on the marketplace and think that without the competition sales will go up.

Terry, I do very much appreciate all of the opportunities here and the hard work that you all do to keep it running as well as it does and that is to be treasured! The fact that you took the time to give a detailed explanation is appreciated as well. The closing of the co-op forum just crossed a line for me is all. The sense of community and sharing that I had is gone. It still is a great website, but now just one among many.

I think I will just have to step back and try to think it through logically. DG is always evolving and I am sure will continue to do so. Who knows what could happen? In any case there are a few months to go on my membership and it is ultimately my choice as to whether DG is a part of my life or not. There is no reason for me to continue to discuss a decision that seems to be final and over which if have no power to change and make other people unhappy as well.

http://davesgarden.com/aboutus/

"Dave's Garden is a website which is building a community for the garden industry"

It would seem that not gardeners, but those who provide products are the main focus.

I had not seen that before. Kind of gives a person a different perspective doesn't it?

"For gardeners ..... By gardener"

isn't that in the banner on the home page?

Uh huh.

I had not seen this before http://davesgarden.com/aboutus/ Kind of gives you a new perspective doesn't it? The stated purpose of the website is apparently not about gardeners but about the gardening business and how to bring in more customers.

Ummmm, I could be wrong, but I *think* that has been there for several years, and probably not a lot of thought went into it ;o)

It doesn't mean we shouldn't take a look at reviewing it, but it's nothing new.

I noticed that the other day Terry and it gave me pause--before all this. I was cruising around--bored--normally I don't look at those things--since DG home is MY homepage. It might bear revising as it is "off-putting"

How long before they ban seed trading because it isn't fair to vendors and sponsors? Z

We understand this decision would be met with a lot of disappointment. We are sorry for that.

However, we ask you to trust that we made this decision because it is in the best interest of the community. I don't think anyone really wants us spending a majority of our time "policing" the co-op forum, settling disputes when people believe they've been ripped off, or investigating allegations that another vendor is using the co-ops to promote and advertise themselves.

For all those reasons, the forum has been closed, again. These are the same reasons the co-op forum was closed before, and we warned everyone that if these problems reared their ugly heads again, we'd have to close it again.

We will do our best to answer your questions, and address the constructive comments and concerns, but for the last time (hopefully), let's put to rest the notion this decision is somehow motivated by profit, because the facts simply do not bear that out.

Let's say a vendor or member sells $100 worth of bulbs, plants or seeds, their selling fee is 3%, or $3. That $3 goes to cover the cost of operating this website so the seller can promote their products to an audience of over a million visitors a month, and providing administrative and technical support when questions arise.

I don't visit DG much anymore except to check for new coop opportunities, reply to current coops I'm in and to work on my Journal. I understand Terry & Dave's frustration at how coops have gone over the 5+ years I've been on DG. However, I must beg to differ from Terry's posted opinion above. I think DG members WOULD like to have administration "policing" coops. It seems time and time again that that is exactly what members have asked for. What the reality is, however, that admin does not wish to "police". And that is certainly their prerogative.

As was posted earlier there are other coop opportunities outside DG. I encourage people to seek those out if you're really interested in continuing to get great deals in cooperation with other gardeners. You'll find, however, that as Dave & Terry have tried to make it here on DG, that these other opportunities are NOT businesses and do not operate for profit & loss and that all participants share (i.e. cooperate) in the venture and reap it's benefits and downsides together as a group. As such "customer service" as we like to think of it is not a function of coops. The coop organizers elsewhere on the internet do not offer guarantees, that is done by vendors if they so choose. That is the issue that has been a contention here at DG, so if you cannot accept that then coops are probably not for you.

I am saddened to see coops pulled here on DG as well, but I guess I also somewhat expected it to happen sooner or later. The end of an era as they say, I guess.

I sure hope that we see some work being done on the Journals feature in the near future. If you aren't into chat or don't have the time to keep up with it, then DG I hope will look at expanding it's offerings and improve the existing ones that get lots of traffic (and I think the Journals are a big hitter imo).

Hope to see some of you in coops in the future around the internet.

Brenda

This message was edited Nov 8, 2008 12:18 PM

Brenda, your points are well-taken, but as I'm sure you remember from the first co-op "era", we did police those co-ops heavily. Organizers had to complete a detailed form, describing what they were offering, where they were getting the plants or seeds from, etc. We would then "approve" the co-op or not.

Despite those draconian measures, some unscrupulous vendors still manage to slip through and "rook" members. Some co-ops still failed, and members felt we should share the blame, since we had put our stamp of approval on the failed co-ops.

Even with the "hands-off" stance, we have discreetly questioned (and cautioned) a few members about the nature of their relationship with the vendor. Our inquiries have generally been met with resistance, to put it nicely.

Several members openly questioned why we would even care if vendors did sell direct to them--they just wanted the discounts, and they don't really care how they get them.

When organizers and participants made it clear they don't want oversight, and co-ops started going bad (as they were bound to do), we concluded the only viable option was to treat these ventures as business transactions, and let vendors sell to members within the confines of the marketing opportunities we provide. Members who want to negotiate a bulk discount and market the excess now have the ability to do that.

And yes, it is possible to organize co-ops outside of DG. But keep in mind that other efforts have had mixed results, mainly because it's difficult to build up a base of buyers from scratch. And--like most other websites--we don't allow anyone to use our forums or memberlist to advertise to our members. (We don't go to other websites and promote DG to their members, so we expect other websites to do the same.)

Terry wrote;"Marketplace and classified ads are both easy ways that members can buy in bulk"

Perhaps some people have been successful, but I've had nothing but lousy luck with both of them. I can't get past page one in the classified (and never have), so I can't comment further on that. Every time I've tried to find anything specific in the Marketplace, I end up so frustrated that I leave. I put a specific in "search" and get back all kinds of irrelevant stuff.

I'm sorry to see this opportunity go, my garden will be the poorer for it. I did notice that some of the biggest complainers in the co-ops I was in were also the ones who backed out.....

I don't understand the closing of the co-ops. Why not ban the vendor and organizer from doing anymore or from DG all together? And the tattle tales be punished in some way.

As a parent no one would punish all your children for what one did? Or how about your child and the rest of the class get expelled or sat. sak for what one did? I don't think it is fair to the ones who participate or the organizers or even the Vendors that follow the rules and they work out Great. How many were we talking about? Even 10 co-ops bad out of 150 co-ops doesn't appear to be a reason to make the participants of the 140 co-ops be punished. Then there are the ones who participated in the bad ones who knew it was buyer beware and lost and never said a word or complained?

As far as vendor/organizer being both part of the wrong doing did the people buying know that was going on? Probably a very select few because I have never seen in my life a whole group of buyers be all in on what is spelled as plain as that. There would always be a good buyer or more speak up and if not and they are burned serves them right for participating in something they knew was wrong.

I know it was said if they were ever shut down again that would be the final co-ops ever offered. There would never again be allowed to be a co-op. I understand making rules stick but the above quote did leave this up to our policing and our choice and the administration would not be involved leaving them out of the middle of the whole mess. I understood why you did that. What happened to that? I am sorry to be so blunt but it does not appear to be a statement of integrity. You as the administration were not going to listen to the complainers. Why did you not answer them with read Dave's Sticky? The quote from above? Or better yet forward it back empty or delete it?

I know I am pushing boundaries here and I am sorry but if you were going to stay out and did not why not punish the bad and not the good. That is what the bad wanted. Did you check to see if they bought anything in the co-op and any major quantity? They could have been lurkers.

I am not saying administration is stupid or anything like this but I know first hand (personally) how a child can make a parents life so bad you have to ban that child to ever come back. Even if it is your only one. It is up to the ones buying to make their choices (Just as the child I speak of knew and made theirs) Now banned never to return or go to jail. Not all 33 yr olds will go to jail if this one 33 yr old child breaks this rule and goes. How fair would that be if all 33 yr olds went to jail? If the child or co-op participant can not live by the rules made due to their actions or others like them in the last co-op forum. If this child had siblings they would not be punished the same unless they followed in the others foot steps.

I am asking administration to please reconsider for us that obey the rules of the co-ops and know it is Buyer Beware.

I am not bashing the sellers on the market place or classified but I have not seen anything even 1/2 the price of what I can buy it for. I have not seen that big of a discount there. That is for people who are making a living at it or classified for people who want to make some money so they can purchase from the next co-op. That is What I would do because on disability I could not have some of the beautiful flowers (well now gone that the Hurricanes took away) unless for the co-ops.

I guess I could resort to breaking the rules and ask if anyone would buy them for me since I am being punished "as" if I broke the rules. Or open a thread for contributions for my need of such and such flower or helping quench my need to replace what I had or add to my plant addiction. (just an example)

I hope this will be reversed and just like stores here hanging up bounced and never paid checks for all to see I think names should be posted or put on their feed back they are whiners and can not follow rules. Or better yet let us have them to tar and feather !!

While I am here I might as well say telling a man he is Handsome is not sexual and more that the the Hottie used in the context we used it in means anything about sex. Little girls have t-shirts that says "Hottie" that 5 yrs olds wear. Is their parents advertising them? Kids stickers say "Hottie" It is a reference to cute, pretty, it is a slang word today. Now being off subject that is different. But if kids came in they would say look at those old women calling each other hottie. Believe me having 2 DGDs I look at the clothes and plastic beads for bracelets, and stickers. You know I had a t-shirt once it said "The more I know men the better I like my dog. I did not see anything wrong with it till a perverted person ask what I did with my dog. It went straight in the trash. Only because He was a husband of a friend of mine and DHs and I knew there were others like him. Fellow members whoever you are don't make things sexual that is innocent. That is when it gets people thinking it is when big deals are made out of it.
That was not for you Terry as I do feel someone told on that being used. After all you would have caught it long before the 33rd thread and stopped it if you thought it was sexual.

I guess I will climb down off my soap boxes.

Thanks for reading this Terry, Dave, Trish or all three of you.

Blessings,
Sandy

So then if the money is going to cover the operating costs of the website... why am I paying $20 per year for a subscription? $20 * number of users = A LOT!! And why would I want to pay for vendors to advertise to me?

I have checked the prices at Market Place. They are way out of the ball park. To say you aren't doing this to make money I believe is totally untrue. You think you will be forcing us to buy more from Market Place. That's obvious. In which you get 3% of. In co-ops, you got nothing.

Donna

What is the benefit of being a paid subscriber without co-ops? Every garden club has group plant purchases. Some of their members are always unhappy and the organizers take it as part of the territory. None ever stop the sales because it is one of the most significant benefits of membership. The DG marketplace is very limited, overpriced and offers no buyer protection like EBAY.

Why not allow co-ops that are organized by members who have already demonstrated successful management. Decisions that are managing to the exception often signal the death knell of an organization. This decision will significantly deter paid memberships.

Terry, I don't share my two cents often but felt I should. I have only participated in a couple of co-ops and they were wonderful. I remember when the co-ops were stopped - and for good reason. So am I wrong when I recall the "enter at your own risk" (or words to that effect) at the top of the forum? So - why is anyone contacting admin about something going awry in a co-op? My response to that dmail would be a link back to the "enter at your own risk".

I don't know why anyone would want admin to spend their time policing the co-op forum. They have better things to do.

I do not know what brought the co-op forum down. One thing I do know - there are lots of people here who just thrive on finding something wrong.

I do think a discussion before the end would have been nice. Maybe DG'ers would make their own policing committee and continue on. It seems with the economy as it is - this isn't the best time to put an end to the co-ops.

I am not commenting because I have been in so many coops and want more. It just seems like the few have ruined it for the many - again.

It is a shame. But this is Dave's Garden not Loretta's Garden. :)

Loretta

I typed this and let it simmer for about an hour. I realize others have posted and there is some overlapping - sorry.

i watch the co-ops all the time and didnt think any had gotten that out of hand!!!
some bad bulbs??? some refunds??? some bad feelings between a FEW people!
This was the only way for most of us to get great plants at great deals-im really sorry
to see it banned again becuz of a very few people!!!

It would have been nice for us to at least know that there were specific problems and had been aware that there were people who were breaking the rules, such that they were. People who broke the rules should have to deal with the consequences - diminished privileges or revoked membership. These forums are called a community, but the community is subject to unilateral decisions with no input, no warning & no say. To reply with "Unfortunately, the decision is final." effectively cuts off any communication. I've seen it here before and it really doesn't feel good. I'm 44 and a paying member, not a 3 year old.

There's been a lot of people and a lot of vendors who have worked to be completely up front, fair and even generous with complete integrity and this action fails to recognize that. You said you weren't going to police the forum; if someone wasn't good with that, it was their prerogative not to participate. The Marketplace as a substitute isn't even reasonable.

Every co-op I participated in was wonderful. I subscribed a whole year before participating and I'm sorry I didn't jump in earlier. I read the part where it said enter at your own risk and I realized the situation upfront before saying, I'm in.

Please reconsider.