Is this really legal?

Wow, somebody just touched upon my single greatest concern. You may not realize it but this has already happened... "this practice came to the negative light of regulators". It is only a matter of time before the "Powers That Be" are in a position to take action. And they will take action once a systemetized means by which to regulate and enforce same is identified. I would hope that individuals who are perpetuating the spread of exotic invasives would be held personally accountable for their actions however our government (those beaurocrats) has a history of over compensating and practicing overkill in an attempt to make a statement while righting wrongs. One simple little court order can blow open the shroud of secrecy as pertains to the anonymity we enjoy by having user names here. I do not want to see a day when we all lose the ability to trade plants and/or seed amongst ourselves. I would much prefer taking a few baby steps and disallowing the trade of any and all seeds and/or plants deemed to be unlawful with out the appropriate permitting. Water Hyacinth comes to mind since it carries particularly stiff fines in quite a few states. There are others. Why not police ourselves and... dare I say it... practice personal responsibility by PMing people we see who are either wanting seeds/plants that are listed noxious weeds or listing seeds/plants that are listed noxious weeds. I am of the opinion that more often than not, the tendency of human beings toward good is not so dissimilar from water flowing downwards. I whole heartedly believe that if the vast majority of people know a particular plant is illegal or on the hall of shame list for their state that they will not allow it to change hands. Just my humble opinion.

Here's a great link-
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=noxious.cgi
Not necessarily updated to my liking but it's the best we have.

This is an extremely valid point, "I am really left wondering what it is that we don't know about all this and what other invasive plants will prove to be highly adapted in someone elses "unsuitable" region/climate, etc..." I could fill entire encylopedias with what I don't know. Kudzu, thought to be incapable of surviving in my region, is marching right toward me. Tamarisk, already mentioned by caron above, is here too. Tamarisk wasn't supposed to be able to survive here nor was Kudzu. But they have and are surviving quite possibly due to adaptive mutations??? I would be a proponent of the white list. Not unduly restrictive and definitely in the best interests of the tax payers.

Thanks caron and langbr. Those links are certainly both quite helpful. Thing is, the PDB says they MIGHT be noxious or invasive (which btw I'm not sure I understand the distinction between) by which I have been assuming they ARE in some areas and NOT in others. The federal one is more specific, but if I were a trader, it would be awfully time consuming to look up each seed for each state to know where I should not be sending them. I actually did try to do that in a couple of cases and gave up because I just don't have that much time to devote to hunting down the info on a state by state basis.. This is really the only reason I have chosen thus far not to participate in long distance swapping.

Oops, caron already posted the link. Great link!

Hi shazbot, your Variegated Japanese Euonymus sticks out like a sore thumb but that Rose Of Sharon might be an issue. I just did a quickie look and that's what I saw out the gate. Try to get the botanical names of your plants and it will make your searches so much easier.

The PDB warning is intentionally general because the PDB is used by gardeners outside the US as well as US members, and the laws vary from state to state and from country to country.

You may have noticed we provide a hyperlink to "invasive" so that you can learn more from other gardeners here:

Invasive: http://davesgarden.com/terms/go/500.html
Noxious weed: http://davesgarden.com/terms/go/2110.html
Undesirable plant species: http://davesgarden.com/terms/go/2111.html

Thank you, caron. I don't have anything on the list, except maybe one. There are 3 varieties of mimosa listed. I have a mimosa tree, and I'm going to check to see if it's one of the ones on the list. Thank you all for all ther info you've left here!

Understood Terry. And I really had looked at each of those links you posted before I even started this thread. As they themselves evidence, and as you actually stated, in the first one, the varying definitions of each of those terms is pretty pervasive, not just at DG, but everywhere. It is exactly those differences state to state and country to country that concern me. I am much more comfortable trading within my own area at local or at least within state swaps because I do have at least a passing knowledge of what is invasive, noxious, and undesirable here. However, IMHO, when hundreds of us actively encourage and conduct interstate and interactionational free trade, the potential for doing harm become exponential. My suggestion for a DB specific to INUs (don't know if that is an existing acronym of if I just now made it up...LOL) was as a possible means to continue the wonderful idea of trading, but make it easier, safer, and more comfortable for us to do so responsibly. I can see however, given all the hype, confusion, multiple definitions, and lag time in identification, how this might be too major an undertaking for us.

I don't know which variety mine is, but at least it's not one of the ones that's on my state's list :)

langbr
Your post illustrates the problem well and the mass confusion surrounding this issue for all of us!!

Allium textile is listed as invasive on DG. But, it is listed as a native plant by the Plants National Database. PND also lists Allium as an invasive genus (but not specific species) in the state of Arkansas. It is not listed in the big list of all legally controlled weeds under the name of Allium textile on this site.
Someone on DG listed it as invasive but not where it's invasive and we absolutely no idea who listed it.
Denver plants.com lists it as non-native but not invasive. Not true-it is a native.
Friends of Sweetwater Park (Georgia) list this as invasive in the park but it's not listed formally in Georgia as regulated.
Ok, that's alot for anyone to wade thru!!

Without further clarification I probably wouldn't trade any allium species to Arkansas. But wouldn't hesitate to trade this in areas of shortgrass prairie where it is a naturally occurring component.

Doubt anyone is going to shut down any trade site unless we are talking about federally listed plants being traded, pville. EDITED PART--Ok after reading Laura's post maybe not-she adds some very good points and concens.

We do the best we can (but need to honestly do the best we can), search out info, and talk to other gardeners on site like this.

This message was edited Nov 11, 2004 11:51 AM

Those who aren't comfortable trading online, don't know what is legal to trade from state to state, or for any other reason don't want to trade, shouldn't trade.

I suspect that if we took steps to enforce the USDA and state laws or provide "official" information about the laws, it would - in all likelihood - backfire on us. You know the saying, no good deed goes unpunished. If we began acting as the government's enforcer of these laws, we would become equally culpable for our members' infractions of said laws. Quite honestly, we have enough on our plates without acting as the seed/plant police or worrying about defending ourselves if/when the government agencies decide to get diligent about seed trading.

Don't we act as eyes for governmental laws all the time? Isn't it the specific regulatory authority the enforcer?
Yup, I report those I feel are driving so erratically as to pose a threat to others. I'll let the authorities figure out if they were drunk, on meds or just distracted.
Yup, if I see someone steal something from a store I say something. And I have literally grabbed children by the neck that I have seen shoplifting and had them return the items to the clerk. I'll let the clerk decide to press charges or not and the cops do their job calling their parents/taking a complaint.
Yup, I turned my landlord into the County Board of Health. They wouldn't fix the septic when there was raw sewage in the yard for weeks and they refused to do anything about it. I let the State do their job with my tax money.
I have also had polite talks with nursery owners here about selling legally defined noxious weeds. And I turned one person in to both the county and the state when those plants were not removed after a month.
It's funny, I know how much is spent in tax dollars to do weed control and eradication. I don't want to see people fined. But as someone who not only contributres to the tax base but is fully accountable for spending it, it kinda burns me when someone won't simply pull out that dames rocket from the yard when presented information on the law.

I don't feel like I'm a fanatic or anything-I don't do this all the time-but there have been occasions....

Wow, you guys were busy while I took a break. Many great points made. I trade and will continue to trade though because I enjoy it and because I am fairly confident in my knowledge of invasives.

I agree with you Caron, because that is what I would do, but I was just saying that many people just don't realize that something is invasive in another area when buying it and planting it. That's the problem. The people selling Water Hyacinth even though they know it is invading waterways in many states are another story. Not everyone is well read on botany and horticulture, or researches every thing on the internet though. Many are everyday gardeners who just buy pretty stuff and try it, not researching it or anything - most of our Grandparents were like that. I might buy Dame's Rocket at a store if I thought it was on clearance and pretty, because I never realized it was invasive elsewhere (until reading this thread). If I was not one who read everything about everything thing I buy or am interested in, then I might send seeds to someone in another state, who themselves do not realize it's invasive in their state. Most people are not spreading these invasives knowingly.

The option of invasives on the PDB is definitely an opinion. Look at Winged Sumac. It is a native of the US, but is considered invasive because in it spreads like crazy especially when not in it's natural habitat (where it has competition).

FYI: Here are the links I have in my Invasive Species bookmark folder if anyone would like them. I spent a day or two researching this a while back and these are the best sights I could find for mostly my area:
http://www.invasive.org/eastern/srs/
http://www.bullcreek.net/invasiveplants.html
http://www.gwf.org/thinkagain.htm
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/invasive_species/page.cfm?pageID=1113
http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/
http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/factmain.htm#pllists

A little clarification edit. :)

This message was edited Nov 11, 2004 2:08 PM

Why not a Sticky Thread - Cautioning People To check State & USDA Regulation on a specific plant before trading. Many people just are not aware!!!

Judy

sweezel and caron....as I read it you are both saying pretty much the same thing. There is certainly a vast differnce in intent between the supposedly professional growers who do it knowlingly and intentionally, and the home gardener who does it unknowingly. The unfortunate part is that as far as the end result goes, intent doesn't matter much :-(

Good links, sweezel-especially The Nature Conservancy one. I use this all the time for control reference and ideas.
I do totally agree with you!! Especially this, "most of our Grandparents were like that. I might buy Dame's Rocket at a store if I thought it was on clearance and pretty, because I never realized it was invasive elsewhere (until reading this thread)."
I CONFESS, LOL!! I actually bought dames rockets quite a number of years ago BB (before botany), and planted it in the yard. What a heavenly fragrance!! It's not there anymore thank goodness!

Just bringing up some other points/questions/concerns... I gasped in horror this last year whenIi found myrtle spurge in a close friends garden. I really want to rip the darn thing out when she isn't home. I have resisted and do not want to continually bring this up all the time but it kinda bums me out-she has the info and does not seem to care.

I also agree that most are do not willingly spread invasives around. And that most is from ignorance. That's where we come in...
I do think tho that there is an additional element of not believing (after all, why the heck should anyone believe ME if I tell them this?), an element of "it's not invasive here" and an element of "no one will regulate what I can and cannot grow in my own yard".

Judy, I think that sounds like a good idea!

Pville, I think we are pretty much on the same page too. My arguements were not directed so much at her or anyone in particular :) I just don't want people to be disdained for their unintintional ignorance. As for the White list. I do understand why the White List proposition is out there, even if I do resent the bureaucratic process of it. There are many many beautiful plants that are non-native and non-invasive. I love the natives of my state and purposely plant them, but I also enjoy Tulips in the Spring.

lalalala....tulips in the spring.... lalala

Well, it took me forever with distractions to reply and caron you replied while I was typing :)

I think you are right and we should not be stubborn. I bought 'Morden's Pink' Lythrum, because it is recommended by many sources around here. Loosetrife really is not much of a problem in our state so I did not know the history until later. It is a Loostrife that is supposed to be sterile, so when I found out about the invasiveness, I just got stubborn and thought "it's supposedly sterile and not a problem here". But why should I be so stubborn when there are so many other plants out there. I finally decided it really was not worth it and it's gone, but it took me a while.

"My arguements were not directed so much at her or anyone in particular :) I just don't want people to be disdained for their unintintional ignorance."
Me either sweezwel, and I really hope I didn't do that to anyone..........

I'm listening to your arguments for and against trading. Very interesting.

One state's "wildflower" is another state's "noxious weed". I noted that a couple of years ago Iowa legislature declared Nebraska's state flower a "noxious weed" --Goldenrod. This action was in retaliation for Nebraska declaring our state flower (wild rose) a "noxious weed".

Iowa is in the process of restoring praire by planting wildflowers by roadsides.
I see quite a variety in their seeding including plants way too invasive for my gardens but happily competing with each other: Dames rocket, daisys, sunflowers, Queen Anne's Lace & many others listed as "weeds" elsewhere thrive by our roadsides.

If Europe cannot agree on regulations after years of strife, how can America which is much bigger and more varied? I certainly do NOT want the variety of wildflowers that thrive in Iowa to be limited by what thrives elswhere! Let each state govern itself.

This message was edited Nov 11, 2004 8:16 PM

The European Union is agreed on regulations regarding plant material movememt between EU countries and have been for some time.

Wanda,

Dame's Rocket and Queen Anne's Lace are noxious, aggressive, invasive non-native plants. Doesn't matter what state they are growing in. They aren't native. Fortunately, they pull up easy, and succumb to round-up readily. Some varieties of sunflowers are not native, but passive. Some varieties of sunflowers (maximillian sunflowers come to mind) are native and aggressive. This is where research comes in! I find Echinacea Purpurea to be very aggressive in my garden, and it's native. Ox-Eye Daisies are not native to the US. I don't find them particularly aggressive, actually, I find them to diminish every year.. I do burns. Very carefully, as I live in the 'burbs. Even when they are not burned, I don't find them crowding other things out. I never found them to be crowding other things out, even before I stated burning. Their leaves are small, their root systems are shallow. This is definitely not to recommend them. Just the facts, as experienced in my garden.

What kind of rose? Rosa Multiflora is a noxious weed. Aggressive, not native. It deserves to be called a weed, IMO. It is cut down on sight here. Native pasture rose, however, is not. Rosa Carolinia, I think.

Goldenrods and Asters are native to the US. However, if they don't have the proper competition from other prairie forbs(flowers) and especially native prairie grasses, and aren't subjected to periodic burns, they will become invasive. If someone wants them as specimen plants, they will have to deal with their amazing ability to root-sucker, and keep on top of them.

If Iowa is planting these plants you mentioned by the roadsides...they are NOT planting native plants. They are planting things that are "pretty." Nothing wrong with pretty, though I think native plants are prettier. They are NOT restoring the prairie. They are helping to destroy it. To say that they're prairie plants, and "restoring the prairie" with them is not right. Because these plants did not exist in the tall grass/mid-grass prairie. They couldn't have. It would be physically impossible. 4 of the 5 plants you listed are native to Europe or Asia. The 5th one may or may not be native, depending on the species. Are they planting native prairie grasses with them? Probably not.

To be scientifically correct about it, native plants are ones that pre-dated settlement by Europeans. Which can be determined by soil core samples, Lewis and Clark, Audubon, and the rare remnants of virgin prairies.

"Wildflowers" and "Native Plants" are 2 VERY different things. "Wildflowers" are what you buy in a tin at Home Depot. Which, it sounds like, the state of Iowa did for their roadsides. They'll look nice for a year or two. Then it will revert back to some sorts of weeds that people will not be happy with, and they'll just start mowing it again.

I have about 30% "wildflowers" in my front yard, to keep within the weed laws, and please the neighbors and, yes, myself. My back yard is all native, all the time. April

Good points April!

I have noticed from looking at some of the states Department of Transportation homepages that some specify their roadside beautification plantings. They call these native wildfllowers. Wow, that sure gives the general public the impression that since the DOT is planting them and they look as to survive harsh roadside conditions then they must do well and be ok to plant in their gardens! A good portion are not native at all and consist of dames rocket, oxeye daisy, and others. Here's one from OK DOT, "You do not say where you are from, but in Oklahoma oxeye daisy is NOT an invasive species. " OK, I can live with that. BUT if the primary mechanism of spread for noxious weeds is by vehicles and Oxeye daisy is being transported into Colorado where it is a noxious weed and forms large monocultures crowding out other vegetation then I consider OK's plantings my states problem!!

I do have to give them alot of credit tho-they go on to say, "Oklahoma DOT is dependant upon donations for seed purchases and, at times, donors prefer certain species, despite our efforts to divert their interest to native species that will thrive and persist in Oklahoma's variable climate.....In response to your drawing this to our attention, I think we will revise our list and website, perhaps noting species that are invasive in other states. We are very careful not to plant anything listed on the OK Department of Agriculture's noxious weed list. "

This message was edited Nov 12, 2004 6:31 AM

You go caron!!! I love it when citizens can actually make a positive impact on the beaurocracy. I guess I have been rather naive. It never even occured to me that the roadside vegetation (flowers or otherwise) were actually planted. I've just assume that the wildflowers were, well....wild. In the spring in Texas we have a pretty eye popping display of bluebonnets and indian paintbrush all along highway medians and side banks, as welll as practically any park, field, or lightly wooded area. The Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center is not far from me and I know they do cultivate wildflowers (now that I think about it that seems like kind of an oxymoron) and they do have a pretty substantial education center. Thinking way back to when she was the First Lady, I do recall highway beautification being one of her pet projects.

P'villePlanter, The thing about planting a praire is...you can't just throw down some seed, go away, and expect it to thrive. There is a certain amount of cultivation involved, especially if you are planting from seed. The first thing you must do is clear your future prairie of the "seedbank" of weed seed that may be there. Which means spraying everything with round-up. Wait until everything dies, then start watering. When the new weeds are a foot high...round-up again. Repeat at least 1 more time. In very late fall...(in my neck of the woods, late november) spread your prairie seed. Cover with straw, if you wish, to keep birds away from the seeds. The first growing season...you keep your prairie mowed to 6 inches. Knocks back weeds that may shade the native seedlings, and gives them a chance to get established. You will not see any blossoms the first year, unless Rudbeckia Hirta is among the seeds sown. This spring was my prairie's first. I identified rudbeckia Hirta and some switch-grass. Some baby monarda, and that's all I saw. Prairie plants, in their first growing season, are more concerned with putting down roots than with top growth. I'm working on faith, here. The early spring of this next growing season..I will mow it really close 1 time. And then we'll see what develops. I know for sure I'm going to be pulling up lots of queen Anne's lace....It is recommended that you don't pull up weeds in a first year prairie, as you may dislodge some seedlings. Some people even recommend not pulling weeds in the second year. Yes, the first 2 years a bit of cultivation is required..but after that...almost none, if you are planting native plants. April

Most interesting April. How big an area is this? Do you have any photos you could share?

She has a few photos posted here in the forums somewhere of her first year prairie.

RU isn't the ONLY way to remove existing vegetation to prepare for a prairie ;) Quite possibly the quickest though and it is a short life chemical.

For those who are vehemently opposed to even a short life chemical, there are a few options.

One can smother entire areas using tarps. Lift em up in a year and that should have sufficiently fried anything beneath beyond recognition. Great way to kill off GM too if one is opposed to hand pulling!

One can also go for the lasagna approach. Similar to above but utilizes layer upon layer of wet newspaper. Holes are dug and plugs are planted right through the layers of newspapers. Benefit is that the surrounding newspaper helps reduce the threat of invasion which keeps competition to a minimum while the plugs and seedlings are setting down roots in the first year when they are most vulnerable. The ink used in newspapers these days is soy based so no need to worry.

Me, I'm going for a combination attack thanks to dodecatheon pushing me over the edge and getting me to accept that some times... chemicals really should be used. I'm spraying RU on a day when there is no wind whatsoever to avoid any possibility of overspray. I'll try to spray around noon when the plants in the area should be photosynthesizing their little hearts out. I'll let that sit for about 2 weeks. Next, I'm butchering the grass by positioning the blade on the lawn mower to the lowest position possible. I'm a big fan of corn glutten meal so I'm sure I'll fling that all over the area to fix a little nitrogen. Then I'll begin to cover it with layer upon layer of wet newspaper in preparation for planting the native plug species I want. One thing, if you are going with a seed as opposed to a plug like me, skip the corn glutten meal. In addition to fixing nitrogen into the soil, it has properties that inhibit germination. Plugs will be safe from corn glutten meal, seeds won't be. The area I am converting over will be somewhere between a fifth of an acre and a fourth. The area dodecatheon converted is the entire back half of her back yard. It's awesome! Incredible display she has back there!

Thanks for answering my question Caron. I'm sorry it took so long to get back here and thank you. I don't have any of the flowers on your list and I am glad that I don't. I made the mistake 4 or 5 years ago of digging up a wild flower that I thought was attractive in the northern part of my state and bringing it to southern lower Michigan where I live. I am not sure what the flower is, but have been told it is a wild flox. It turned out to be wild indeed throwing underground runners all over the place. I pull it up every year but it keeps returning. I sure don't want to experience the possiblity of ever having another flower do this. Another plant I have had problems with is Trumpet Vine. I had a neighbor give me one, not knowing much about this plant. It is awful. I have little baby trumpet vines coming up all over the place, as far as l2 ft away from the plant. The roots even go under sidewalks and show up on the other side. If I would have know this vine would be doing this, I never would have planted it.

We had several vines with similar characteristics when we first moved here. Lots of Porcelain Berry Vine and a few native grape vines that were choking an American Elm. I finally found a way to get at all of the vines plus the runners. This may work for your Trumpet Vines. I pulled as much of the vines out of trees as was possible. I laid them out on pieces of plastic and coiled the vine around on the plastic. I waited for a week when there was no rain in the forecast and when the temps were going to be in the 70's so the chemicals would work. Then I poured out regular strength BrushBGon into a little cup and painted the leaves with one of those throw away brushes. I let them lay in the sun until they were dry and then covered up the vines with another piece of plastic so critters couldn't get into the chemicals. The vines looked pretty healthy for over a week and then they started dieing off. I waited another week and then we cut them and bagged them and dug up the base and as much of the roots as we could get out of the ground. A few of the Porcelain Berry vines had to be repainted and left to lay out for another week. So far it has been two years and they have not come back.

Originally, I had used the undilluted concentrate of BrushBGon or maybe it was RoundUp. I suppose I figured if a little is good a lot would be better. Not true. The vines shrivled up and started turning brown in all of two days and I was thrilled. They appeared to be dead in less than a week. Problem is the undilluted concentrate works too fast. The plant died off above ground before it had a chance to transfer the chemicals into the roots and to the runners. Portions of every vine that I had tried to kill off using the "overkill" method came back to haunt me three fold. And they came back with a vengeance as there was a massive root structure with little or no folliage above ground to support. That was a real bummer to see them all come back like that.

Great idea! I'm going to try that with my morning glories. And the tip about not using full strength is particularly applicable to them since where they keep coming up is more through shrubs were it is almost impossible to dig to get to the roots. I might try it on some of the vinca too to try to get it back under control.

P'Ville,

First off.....The area I am turning into prairie is small...about 500 square feet, but I will double it's size next year. My personal experience with re-creating prairies is strictly the suburban cowboy type. I volunteer at nearby state parks, so I get experience in large scale prarie and savannah and wetland management and restoration from there. At my house, I'm doing a re-creation, not a restoration, as this subdivision was a swampy cow pasture for many decades previous to it's being a sub-division. I will post pictures of it tomorrow. It doesn't look like very much now. In fact, it looks quite dead right about now! We've had a couple of hard frosts. Equil is giving me way too much credit!

I am experimenting, so half of that 500 square feet is being planted with plugs, i.e., plants that are already growing, and as I can afford them. This is the half that I usually burn parts of every spring or fall, but I will give them a rest for this next year and see what happens. These plants have mature root systems that go very deep and can withstand the short amount of time that a "prairie fire" exposes them to high heat. Prairie fires burn very quick and very hot, depending on the fuel load. There are pros and cons on whether to burn in Spring or Fall, so I try to switch off. Also, I try not to burn the praying mantis egg cases, or any other egg cases, so I mark them off, and burn around them. The experts say you should burn no more than a third of your prairie in any one year, so you spare the bulk of the insect egg cases and larvae.

I volunteer to help at the burns the state parks do around here, too. Fire~Fire~

The other 250sf I seeded last November. I can't start burning it until next fall, at least.

The only picture I really have of the area is a picture I took before I got started with my little project....and it's a picture of an echinacea monoculture! I will enclose it. DH had gotten some "Wildflowers" Meadow Mix in a tin from Home Depot (about 5 years ago)and spread them there....and the echinacea is what survived and prospered! Oh, and the da*n dame's rocket. The dame's rocket I have about killed off, and the echinacea I give away to friends and/or offer up on freecycle.org. I got rid of a good chunk of it in one day this way. About 1/3rd of the entire prairie. I want echinacea....just not THAT much of it.

The seeded half of the prairie..well, here I made a mistake. The soil was very compacted due to foot traffic, to the point of hardpan, so I turned it up with a roto-tiller, prior to the Round-up and seeding. This caused a population explosion of queen anne's lace (QAL)! QAL LOVES disturbed ground. Like I said...I did see some native seedlings in there. I am going to mow everything to the ground, with the bag on, and I'll see if I can't get rid of lots of QAL plants and seeds in this way. I'll be using the "glove of death" next year for sure! The glove of death is a nifty thing.

I recommend Round-Up, or glyphosate, for these reasons: It breaks down into it's harmless components in the soil after 5 days, and is not toxic after 24 hours. Even when freshly applied, It's harmless to adults, kids and animals (ask Equil, I spilled a quart of the stuff down my legs at her house once, I was soaked in it, and am here to tell the tale! Wouldn't want to do that with Garlon!), however, it will kill fish. Do NOT spray it near your pond, or any body of water. Keep in mind, the spray will drift, and it will kill any plant it touches, so you still have to be careful. It can take up to 2 weeks to see the results, so be patient...you're not going to have a drooping, dead looking plant the next day in most cases.

The Black Tarp method is another way to deal with your weed seed "bank". What you do is, you spread a black or dark coloured tarp over the area you want to plant. You leave it there for one entire growing season. The heat of the sun will heat the top couple of inches of soil to the point where it kills the weed seed, and any other seed. On a sunny summer day...it gets to about 190 degrees under there! The following planting season, you are all set. This method requires patience, which is in short supply at my house, hence the Round-Up method, LOL!

The "lasagna" method that Equil mentioned is good, too. Though I would add that in addition to about 10 layers of wet newspaper, you need about 2 inches of sand to go on top of it. And on top of that, about an inch of mulch. Looks better, too. JMHO! Affix a bulb auger to your drill, drill planting holes and plant away! Right away! That's how we did it at the state park I volunteer at! I will go there tomorrow and send you some pictures.

Hi, vinca is a slightly different situation. That is sort of like English Ivy in that the top of the leaves are almost waxy so they repel chemical as opposed to absorbing it. I used a stamp licker bottle on those but any sponge applicator bottle will do even an old shoe polish bottle. Filled it up with RU and applied it to the underside of the leaves. You only need to get a few leaves on each plant and it does a pretty good job. In zone 8 you might still have enough time to go after a few of these this year.

Fascinating. I look forward to hearing more about your prairee as it progresses and look forward to seeing the photos from the park too.

So painting the underside of the vinca leaves with RU won't harm any of the shrubs or other plants they are wrapped around right?

Equil and P'ville,

i saw this recipe somewhere once, for killing vinca and english ivy.

Mix your Round-Up, at normal strength.

Add a Tblsp. of dish soap,

2 tblsp of fertiliser.



Spray.

The dish soap allegedly defeats the waxy coating on the leaves. The fertiliser encourages the plants to start growing and sucking up the poison at a an increased rate! April

P'ville,

As long as you get the Round-Up on the leaves of the plant you want removed ONLY, you shouldn't have any problems! I use an envelope licker thing that Equil gave me, or a small paintbrush, so i deliver the chemical only to the plant I want to go bye bye. April

I have several of the sponge foam type paintbrushes. I just wanted to be sure that there wasn't any way it could "leak" to other plants it is touching or wrapped around once it starts going through the vinca's system since they have so many little roots all along the runners.

Hi PVillePlanter- send me your address and you can be the proud owner of an Office Max... (maybe it was Office Depot) .99 cent stamp licker thingie too!

Hi April- Yup, your recipe helped me break down the waxy coating on the English Ivy this past spring but I found the undersides of the vinca leaves to be quite vulnerable and saved me an extra step when I was able to dab them with standard strength RU. I used Dawn dishwashing detergent in the mix for the ivy but skipped adding the fertilizer as I didn't know which one to add.

April, I was told a minimum of 12 layers (preferably 14-15) of wet newspaper and to skip the sand for plugs. I can see where the sand would be necessary for seedlings along with a layer of mulch but plugs should conceivably be able to go right in with my 2" auger? Right?

Gotta disagree with you on 5 days to break down on glyphosate. It is water soluble and does break down quickly but treated areas are generally not deemed safe to seed or plant in until at least 2 weeks preferably 3 weeks from application. The majority of the toxins are gone after 5 days however some do remain for extended periods of time and wild rabbits and squirrels have been found to have trace elements after a year. Don't know if the existence of trace elements was necessarily a horrible thing as I never could find any research on same.

Here were my biggie hang ups to RU. It is a chemical. It's no secret that I hate chemicals. Herbicides are designed to kill which makes me incredibly uncomfortable. The gylphosate is a fatty acid that clogs the vascular system of the plant. That’s what makes it effective. Several concerns are that study after study is revealing that use of same increases a soil fungus called Fusarium (sp?). Probably not a major concern to me for most areas of my lawn that I want to get rid of but a definite concern over by my little tiny orchard and in and around the areas where the Manchurian apricots, raspberries, and blueberries are planted. I'm thinking I am going to have to go with the tarps in that area and smother away for a year. Come to think of it, I couldn't use RU in that area any way as it is too close to wetlands. Another concern is the number of plants that are becoming resistant to glyphosate which I see as being a potentially major issue in the future if RU becomes over used. Drift is another concern. RU is a non discriminatory herbicide and the slightest of a breeze will carry it and some people get out there and just spray away with wild abandon. There are definitely temperature considerations when applying this product. To the best of my knowledge, temps need to be above 60F but below 85F consistently for a week for the product to have any effect whatsoever. The plant is dormant at temps below 60F. Above 85F, the plant shuts down to conserve resources. If anyone is applying RoundUp outside that temperature range... they are most assuredly just dumping chemicals into their yard senselessly. I may be a convert to using the product but I'm not entirely sold on using it any way other than sparingly and in moderation. We just don't know the chemical's full long term effects yet.

Overall, RU is extremly effective and quite efficient. It breaks down rapidly and is often considerably less destructive to other organisms. I'm going to use it in that one area but I still am sort of uncomfortable with my decision to do so. To date it is the only product I could find to help me waste the reed canary grass aka ribbon grass. If I hadn't used it when you told me to do so, I would be inundated right now.

See now y'all are confusing me again. Dead is dead. As long as you kill what you are going after and not anything else, what difference does it make if you clog it's arteries or fry it under a tarp?

Sorry Pville, that was more for dodecatheon as a comment on there now existing several species of plants that have "evolved" or been "engineered" so to speak to be resistent to the RU in that their "arteries" aren't clogging any more which means they aren't "dead" after RU is used. The RU will still work on your vinca and quite well I might add. The RU makes things "dead" faster than a tarp but it is not approved for use in or around any water and may not be the most appropriate choice in and around any food crops because of that lousy soil fungus that manifests itself about a week after use. Basically, if your vinca is by a corn or soybean field or other human consumptionable food crop... you might want to consider using something other than RU to make it "dead" until they know more about what impact the presence of this fungus may or may not have. I am very conservative and reserved and dodecatheon is more willing to experiment and practical is about what it comes down to. Use the RU on your vinca and slaughter it!

This is for April-
http://www.biotech-info.net/soil_fungus.html
http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=19754
http://www.pestlaw.com/x/press/2003/ISIS-20031130A.html

http://www.dcr.state.va.us/dnh/invlist.pdf

My veggie garden is in the back yard, vinca is in the front so should be no problem there. This fungus won't hurt my hedges, mums, or gerbera that are trying to survive in the vinca's midst?

Yikes Dyson.....your mess is right at the very top of the list!.

I noticed, I also paid very close attention on my way to town (Roanoke) to get parts yesterday, about a 30 min ride each way. The tree of Heaven is everywhere, anywhere there is an uncut bank on the side of the road, there it is,

Lots of it looking dead where the power company has sprayed it,only under their lines, the rest of it flourishing and spreading. This cannot be good for native species.

I am currently putting together a "slide show" w/photos of all the plants in the list.