Status of Updates and Fixes (New as of 12-23-2015)

Actually, I am using a Windows 8.1 desktop computer using FireFox 19.0.1.

I understand the difficulty of the challenge of making a website work on all of the many mobile devices that are out there. But the development team should have examples of most, if not all, of those devices to pre-test the compatibility of changes before making them. Just as they should have all browsers in general use to test with.

All websites (and operating systems) are responding to the multi-mobile-device challenge, but this website is doing noticeably worse than other sites. Which should cause this website to reexamine how they are doing things. The software tool-sets that were usable only a few years ago are no longer appropriate. Perhaps the next big change should be to roll out a completely new methodology for maintaining this website. They are available.

This site should resolve not to make the regular users serve as beta testers. I have served as a beta tester from time to time, and I have noticed one important thing about beta testing. Regulars users are annoyed and angered about encountering a bug, but beta testers are delighted to find one and report it. Terry, you shouldn't be dealing with an angry mob.

ZM

As best as I can tell, yes. I went to a private forum while not being logged in and I could read it, but if I clicked on images, it says only subscribers can view them full size (or something to that effect). And of course I couldn't post.

I did not subscribe until 2013, if I remember, and this was only so I could post on a subscriber only forum since I had questions about native gardening. I basically treat them like public forums and not share a whole lot. I'll chit chat, but not get very deep.

I am on a Samsung tablet. The up arrow is an empty circle. It has been an arrow, a "back to top" and a meandering bouncing ball that drifts to the left in the lower portion of my screen.

My watched threads are not consistent and keep unwatching themselves. Could this be when a new page begins? I'm not sure. I've been afraid to even peek on my 'droid phone.

The problem of being returned to the beginning of a thread after viewing photos still exists.

If it says unwatch it means you are watching it. You need to click on unwatch if you want to stop watching it. I remember FB being like this yrs ago and it was very confusing.

I did not sign up to Dave's to be a beta tester. I've been to many sites that have updated but they weren't released to the public until they were ready.

Home button is working for me.

Yes, I know, Lisa but my problem is I am getting updates and suddenly not getting updates on those same threads. It seems to be random. Yesterday was the most consistent day so maybe this is being resolved.

Have you tried clicking on "Back to Post" (just above the photo)? It takes you right back to the same post you were on.

I understand the frustration you share with many others - and quite honestly, it is shared by Melody and me, and the techs. But I assure you (and everyone else) that we do not consider you a beta tester, either by design or de facto. Melody and I spent a lot of time with the techs going over the nooks and crannies of this release, and the problems we have experienced fall into one of two categories:

1. Plain, old-fashioned human error and oversight. I can only sincerely apologize for the things that we now realize we forgot about or overlooked as we tested. We really did think we had tested things on staging very thoroughly, but no matter how much you *think* you've tested, you invariably find things that you just didn't consider when you went through the litany of tasks and steps that an every day user and an admin need to be able to do.

2. Some things simply didn't work as well on production as they did on staging. That is an area that I can't speak to the how's or why's, but some of the problems we have encountered were not issues we encountered when we tested.

Thanks for reminding me about how to get back to a post, Nuts.

My ball is gone again and now I've got "Back To The Top". Why is it switching back and forth?

Maypop, my hit and miss experience is the same. I'll read a thread and go back to my homepage and it's still there.....: )

I'm back to the white ball. Rolling with it. lol This is so far down on my list of life crises.

One thing is for sure There is no way in the whole wide world you are going to please everyone! I believe DG has over 700,000 members. So it is a comparative few who are making all the noise about these changes. That 'noise' seems to run the gamut from praise (VERY few) to complaints, to helpful suggestions to downright threats to leave, antagonism and insults. So I have a tendency to believe that the rest of the thousands of members are perfectly happy with the changes, or at least perfectly willing to learn to use and accept them.
To be perfectly honest, I, too, was unhappy about it all at first. But as things roll along, I find I don't really mind it all that much. Mostly it's just learning to use the features. My main concern now is simply the over all appearance of the forum pages. The brightness is tough on these old eyes, and rather cold looking, instead of the 'old' warm and friendly. It simply means I spend less time reading here to prevent eye strain and headaches.
And to be honest, when I first joined DG, I found it pretty user UNfriendly. (There are still some things about DG that I don't know what they are, or what, if anything, one is supposed to do with them.) But eventually I learned my way around. At least enough so that I can read and participate in the forums l am most interested in, and I can use the different files when I have questions.
Actually, I just started out to say "thank you" to both Terry and Melody for your patience and efforts. I, for one, do appreciate all y'all are doing.
And this post turned out to be a lot longer than originally intended.
Vern

What's strange is I find this easier to read. I get less eye strain. Weird,

I haven't been on DG for awhile and viola! it seems totally unfamiliar. I'll be pestering you to the extent that I continue to use DG. (I was already disappointed in the previous 'improvements'.) I've been finding it much easier to just google something rather than use DG. It's probably a generation thing. But as a former programmer / analyst I am curious if members were surveyed as to any changes or new features that they would like. Or did the techs just make decisions on their own? (As I said, I haven't been around for awhile. Last 'features' annoyed me.)

I did notice yesterday that posts I had thought were 'pinned' had lost their bearings. You can guess by my name the forum that I use the most. I will ask the 'pinner' if her posts had actually been 'pinned'. If so, then I will come back to pursue this further.
Oh. One more thing for now. For simplification purposes, is it better to only ask 1 question per post, unlike what I have done here?
I look forward to your reply. Or anyone's reply. Thanks.

Response to those who feel like we're in beta testing: from my careers #2 (programmer) and #3 (analyst) in the wonderful world of computers, I say YES. It might be unintentional, but it definitely feels like beta testing to me.
Career#1 (not counting working for the parents) was teaching people with Learning Disabilities. I have found that experience instrumental in my work with computers and end users. (1) Ask a lot of questions. (2) Use short, simple answers. (3) Verify that questions and answers are 'related' and understood. (4) Keep it simple.

Response to a post from a satisfied user: I totally agree with you that you can't please all of the people all of the time. But just because some folks are not voicing their opinions does not mean that everyone is satisfied. (Does everyone always raise their hand when the teacher asks a question?) Also, pointing out necessary or desired fixes are best when they are not repetitive. Makes it easier for the analysts to make lists for follow-up testing or clarification or to submit to the programmers.

Thanks to everyone whether programming, analyzing, testing, crabbing, and just plain old trying to get things done.

What's the status of syncing the forums to the home page? This has gone beyond frustrating, and the site is becoming one of the myriad of clickfests on the web. This should have ALL been tested, prior to launch.

LoL I agree, it is just that beta testers are elated and thrilled when they find a glitch!


Speaking for myself I am soooo not looking forward to the roll out of any more changes and fixes here. Just knowing they (Home Page) are coming fills me with a sense of impending doom. I am in mourning for the loss of a daily activity, routine and community I have enjoyed that have been disrupted and dissolved for over three weeks with no end in sight.

Truth be told, the one change/upgrade that hit the right spot was being able to post more than one photo per post but that was quite some time ago.

As to 'repetitiveness of reports' sometimes if only one person reports a prob it may be deemed unique to that user whereas when two or more report on same it may be more likely to be seen as systemic. Also, it is strangely reassuring to find that I am not the only one with said prob and then to also benefit from otheruser input as to how to handle or work around same. Even though the site may be less 'user friendly' while under reconstruction, most users here remain friendly!

Terry wrote
Not highest priority, but on the list of fixes for an upcoming release:
Number pages at top as well as bottom.
Return to thread top (?) or bottom (?) or another spot after you submit a reply.
Add back the "while you were typing, a new post was made" alert when you are posting to a forum.
Tweak font size, background colors, etc. for readability.

Terry could you please add this to your list?
Site wide notice to all users via the Banner message of any further upgrades, changes and scheduled dates and times of same.

Thank you

To the extent that we have a confirmed ETA for implementing a roll-out, yes :-).

I want to address The comment of the thousands of members and only a few are complaining.
The number of members is deceiving. If you look at the paid subscribing members there aren't near as many as you might think. I looked at 5 states PA, VA, NJ, MD, DE and the DC area that I think of making up the Mid-Atlantic region and found approx 259 paid members. I know of many members that are very upset but don't post here because their concerns have already been very well represented here. Many have said goodbye permanently and many have said that they will be back when / if this mess is cleaned up. They have stopped their normal daily posting and once they have broken the habit of visiting this site and perhaps moved on to other things they just might not come back. I have been a member here for close to 10 years and have seen changes in the site but never anything like this mess.

I agree with what Holly said, certainly no 700,000 members. Maybe 700,000 userIDs

I think i'm coming up on 9 yrs being here, the majority of "friends" i've had over the years are gone, only a handful are left.
I'm sure I will continue to be a paying member as I have always felt this was my gardening "home" and I know the ones that stay feel the same.

The 700,000 number comes from the member page. I am not so stupid as to believe that those are all paid and active members. Nor did I try to figure out how many of those are paid members, or how many are active or where they live. But I do think it boils down to the fact that the percentage of dissatisfied members is quite low. I'm sure there are those that have left, or will leave. And that's a shame. But there will also be new members joining, and that's good.
Technology is changing (Growing? Progressing?) really fast. Apparently we mere humans are having a hard time keeping up.
Vern

There is a difference with keeping up with technology which I am capable of doing. And rolling out this mess on members. Yes, people will leave and others will come. I do not intend to attack you personally just point out a difference of opinion. There is a membership here and those that are speaking up, speak for them as well. As I am sure you speak for others that are just fine with this.

Demographics change and technology changes in the blink of an eye. People expect everything now simultaneously and instantly on their tablets, their phones and their computers all of which can be different brands and models with different requirements or set ups. Young people are deep into instant gratification and may favor Facebook or Twitter or similar sites and do less if any gardening. Those among us who continue to enjoy long friendships and conversations on Dave's Garden need to be a bit more appreciative, tolerant and courteous as changes and fixes take place. There is rarely One Size Fits All and I am certain that much work is being done behind the scenes here to make this site fully functional and and to meet many of the demands.

I've managed to get where I want to get on the site despite new and often perplexing changes. And I have had prompt responses from Terry on anything I've reported.

Just try to deal with Apple and the changes they make to the ITunes site! If you have a problem with your IPad or your Smart Watch -- good luck! You get to make an appointment with an "Apple Genius", drive to the nearest store and pay for the privilege of meeting with that "Apple Genius". ;-)

Well said June, I agree.

Hi Vern,

That 700,000 figure is totally bogus. I used to live in Maine a good many years ago, and the user name that I used on forums, including this one, was MaineMan. When we moved to Kansas I changed to ZenMan on GardenWeb and other forums, and I requested to change my "handle" here to ZenMan. Dave's Garden replied that ZenMan was already in use (a circumstance that I found quite doubtful) so I changed my request to Zen_Man, and that was granted, and I continued under that "handle" to this day. Wondering if we would ever hear from that mysterious ZenMan. I have never seen any evidence that a real user here is named ZenMan.

I have seen the same thing on other sites, namely that some people have registered great blocks of names -- just to "reserve" them. Hopefully that was NOT done by personnel working on this forum. But, that 700,000 number might look quite attractive to potential advertisers. I have mentioned this problem to the forum administrators -- that they need to "scrub" the fake users from their user list. No response on that. I suspect that over 90 percent of those user-names represent "fake" bogus users. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. In any case, let's hear a response from the "real" ZenMan. Come on, ZenMan, tell us you are still alive. If you ever were.

" But I do think it boils down to the fact that the percentage of dissatisfied members is quite low. "

I seriously doubt that. Although, for full disclosure, I do consider myself as a satisfied member at the present. That has not always been the case. Long story.

ZM

A lot of members don't come here except during gardening season, too.

Speaking of "site wide", I think there should be an obvious centrally located "How to use this site" or words to that effect. New users or visitors should see it at the "entrance" to the site. It should include "tips" on how to navigate the site, possibly relevant FAQs, etc.

And it should have tips on how to view and navigate the posted photos. It should mention that Dave's Garden downsizes over-sized pictures to only 708 pixels wide, but DG actually stores larger uploaded pictures, and that there is a simple technique for viewing a 708-pixel picture in its larger size.

To view the larger version, right-click on the 708-wide picture and choose "View Image" at the top of the popup menu that appears. A larger picture appears. Then, click your F11 key and the picture gets larger still, and expands to "full screen".

To get back, click F11 again, and click the Back Arrow on your Browser and you are back at the 708-pixel version, where you can click "Back to post" or "Next Photo" or "Previous Photo".

That technique can maximize your enjoyment of pictures on Dave's Garden. Just takes a few clicks.

I have uploaded a few 1000-pixel-wide pictures that you can try that viewing technique on. Larger pictures might also work, but my monitor gets fully filled by my 1000-pixel pictures.

ZM


This message was edited Jan 5, 2016 4:43 PM

This message was edited Jan 5, 2016 10:54 PM

I'm not looking forward to changes on the homepage bc that's how I get to all the forums. I never even thought to look on the forums page (and when I did I never could get it to load) BUT I click on the forum name and it takes me right to the forum. It might not show if there are updates but it's easy enough to find out.

Some of those 700,000 participants include people that have posted on Garden Watchdog 1 time, not what I would call members.

????

And those Garden Watchdog participants amount to a very small percentage of the current 730,000+ "members". The vast majority of those on the member list have never started a thread or even posted a message in one. It is unknown whether they even "lurked" a thread. They just picked a username and a locale (which they can leave blank and frequently do leave blank). There is nothing in place to prevent a person from registering many usernames and locations.

There is nothing to prevent a member from lurking forums without participating, but unfortunately DG does not detect lurking, so there is no way to determine if one of these inactive members has been a lurker or not. Being a lurker would be an activity of a sort, but DG is unable to give an otherwise inactive member credit for that.

In my opinion, Dave's Garden should grant non-paying memberships on a "use it or lose it" basis. Disuse for a period of, say a year, should be cause for membership cancellation. But lurking should be detected (possibly through mandatory log-in with a password or cookie detection) and lurking should be given credit as forum usage, for the purposes of membership retention.

I repeat: the current Dave's Garden membership list is in serious need of purging of "dead" members. And it might be prudent to require a new applicant to confirm by email their desire to register. Since anyone can get an email address (or a hundred of them, if they wish), it is not too restrictive to require an email confirmation.

ZM

Here is your ZenMan, Zen_Man. LOL http://davesgarden.com/members/ZenMan/ So at some point a ZenMan existed here and still may.

I think many sign up to post photos to PFs or to use other aspects of DG besides the forums. I think some even see a photo of a plant that catches their fancy and join so they can dmail the photographer asking for the plant. I know I have gotten a lot of such requests and when I look at their member page, they just signed up that very day.

I bet a lot just check in once in awhile to check a plant in PFs or the standing of a nursery, etc. Not everyone that joins, joins to chat in the forums.

I do not get why you even care how many subscribers have signed up Zen_Man. How does it affect you? And why make subscribers use the forums. I personally can go months with never using any of the forums, just going to PlantFiles. Why would it matter to you how I choose to use DG or how often?

And I doubt many people would want to sign up to DG many times using fake names and fake localities! LOL. Does not seem like that much fun. But even if they did, why care?

I think once you sign up, you are in for the duration. But I do not see how it really affects anyone. When I leave DG, I sure am not going to worry that my name is on a list with 700,000 others that no one will probably ever see or even care to see.

And ZenMan I lived in Canoga Park, CA (Zone 9b) with a birthday of February 6. Sounds real enough to me. But there is no record of any forum activity by ZenMan. I did send ZenMan a Dmail earlier today, requesting a reply. No answer yet, but I wasn't expecting one this soon. I will be surprised if ZenMan does answer my Dmail, because you have to sign in here to get Dmail notices.

You can't even take ZenMan's not answering you as a sign they are gone, (though he probably is) never to return again. I am ashamed to say, I sometimes do not answer Dmails. Depends on many things.

" I do not get why you even care how many subscribers have signed up Zen_Man. How does it affect you? "

The number of members affects how many advertising dollars the site can raise, which does indirectly affect all of us, if you stop to think of it.

" And why make subscribers use the forums. "

Subscribers are paying members, and can do whatever they want. And I am not trying to "make" anyone do anything. I think that the members should be using the site in some way, forums, plant files, whatever. How they use the site is entirely up to them.

" Why would it matter to you how I choose to use DG or how often? "

You have been an important contributor to the Plant Files, so whenever I need to use the Plant Files, I would be a potential benefactor of how you did choose to use DG. Hopefully you will continue your good work in the future.

" And I doubt many people would want to sign up to DG many times using fake names and fake localities! LOL. Does not seem like that much fun. But even if they did, why care? "

Well, first of all, after looking at the membership list in some detail, it doesn't look like people have been reserving blocks of fake names and localities, so I agree with you there. But, if they had, it would mean that the number of actual members was seriously inflated. A potential advertiser might consider that to constitute fraud, because the value of the ads depends on how many "eyes on" the ads have. If Dave's Garden got involved in some problem, legal or otherwise, with an advertiser, it could affect me (all of us) indirectly, by diverting DG's attention away from maintenance of the website. It is actually to our benefit if Dave's Garden has both favorable and profitable relations with their advertisers. So anything that is phoney-baloney can be problematic.

" I think once you sign up, you are in for the duration. But I do not see how it really affects anyone. When I leave DG, I sure am not going to worry that my name is on a list with 700,000 others that no one will probably ever see or even care to see. "

Just think, right now there could be a sweet little baby named Kelly who will grow up and want to get the Dave's Garden username of Kell. Don't you feel just a little bit of empathy for that sweet little baby?

ZM

No issues on my IPAD

I know that a long long time ago, many people would sign in, and lose their sign in names and passwords and there was no way to recover them. Perhaps too long disused, but I am sure there is one lost acct for me. Then the world refused to allow anything to get lost, and updating files over wrote the new stuff and brought back the past that should have been changed. Phones refused to dump ANY phones no matter how often you deleted the info- old loans popped up as unpaid or unfinished from decades ago and loan officers went back to collect old debts that weren't even valid. Shake head. Do we remove our members that have moved on? Or just post a memorium and carry on? Is this why when the site is restructured we once more have original threads popping up like gas after a bad meal? Every single time? Part of that old programming that refused to allow new material to update the old? There does need to be a division tween used and disused members, the same as on The id forums where threads never get closed,and posters probably forget they posted...

In a nutshell, no user names have ever been created by "personnel" here, other than our own. No blocs of names have been created by anyone for any purpose that I am aware of, other than a few isolated incidents of spam attacks, and we've taken great pains to remove those accounts.

I have my original username Go_Vols, which is a non-subscriber account that I use to test things how things look from a non-subscriber's perspective. The "Terry" account was previously registered but never-used and it was transferred to me by Dave when he asked me to join as an admin, and we felt it was appropriate to use real names for admins. (So even my second account didn't create an inflated account on the member rolls.)

The username "ZenMan" was registered in 2006 by someone with an AOL account who lives in Canoga Park, CA and provided their birthday as February 6. They posted to the Palms forum shortly after registering: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/589015/

Everything except the fact they used an AOL email address is information you can glean from their member page: http://davesgarden.com/members/ZenMan/

As a sidenote, we have two other users who also registered some variation of ZenMan as their name, so it's not *quite* as uncommon as one might think.

When we created the ability to ban usernames for site abuse, I asked Dave to be sure it subtracted from the username tally, as I didn't think it was appropriate to indicate those names are active users. I'm assuming that function works, although I can't easily test it with the number of new members always moving the number.

We do not remove or scrub members from the list for non-activity. Experience has taught us that members sometimes let their accounts lay dormant for a long time before activating them, or they appear to have abandoned their account, only to return years later.

Thanks for your response, Terry. I had already determined from inspection of the member list that there was no evidence of mass or bulk duplicate memberships, and I conceded that in a message to Kell.

" We do not remove or scrub members from the list for non-activity. "

I respect your right to have that policy, although I do not personally agree with it. I guess part of my opinion is based on lingering resentment over not being able to be ZenMan because I thought at the time that it was improbable that another user had that name legitimately. I was wrong. It happens. I am over it. How you manage your membership rolls is totally Dave's Garden's business, and I wish Dave's Garden every success in the future.

Incidentally, I may be in the minority on this, but I like DG's "new look".

ZM