Ipomoea purpurea X Ipomoea nil

Becky , here is what I use: floral wire ties... it is on a double spool and cost about 1.50 at Dollar General, or Walmart... may be at a Craft store such as Michaels', or hobby lobby,... I wind the wire web style around three or 4 short thin bamboo sticks, and I also use those wooden kabob sticks as supports. ( the dollar store or walmart about 50 for a dollar) if I run out of bamboo sticks. I have no clue as to what the Japanese do, but I get good vine climb and short space used, and it is light, and has a self clipper on the spool.. I will take a picture of it and post it for you.. Debra

Debra - I would love to see your spiral wire creation. :-) Please do post a photo. Thanks for the heads up as to what and where to buy the items! :-)

I just found some interesting websites for MG cages:

http://www.tomato-cages.com/
http://www.biconet.com/tools/veggieCage.html
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,43319,33282,58797&p=58797

These are all the same type cage.

Here is a cool idea:
http://albumo.com/photo/602199/Isolated-Morning-Glory.html

oh I love the bird cage idea lol...

If you go to this page and scroll down, you'll see how they used those spiral veggie cages for MGs! Looks great!

http://www.veggiecage.com/gallery_plant_supports.cfm

oh yes it does look good.. ... remember the pics I posted when I first came on? I had the two sides of my back porch with MG curtains? that was with the floral tie wire.. I strung the wire and secured it and let them go..

I also used the tomatoe cages .. grew them with the tomatoes lol.. here is the wire..

here are the babies so far.. we have the mg from the back yard ( the big one in the back there, (the flowers were the big blue ones by my back door) and then we have the purple blizzard in a recycled plastic juice bottle with spagmum moss, and then the moon flowers alba in the other recycled plastic container, and in the glass mug a project for an art endeaver.. ( this was just a jar and seeds, with a plastic water bottle over it for the nursery effect as they germinated) top off I have planted a mixture and posted it on my multiply site with photos : Here is a List of what is in this first "nursery planter" to grow all Winter and replant in spring:

5 sunspot morning glory seeds

5 Red Morning Glory seeds

2 white Chinese Bean Hyacinth

10 Red celosia seeds in groups of 5 towards the back of stems. One thin green Bamboo stick broken in half. One dried Salvia stem with root ball in middle. One water bottle with top cut off , inverted into One used Glass Handled Mug,

Filled with moist Potting Material, added seeds, dried Salvia stem, sprinkled fine vermiculite and moss cuttings over top, firming into soil, before putting plastic top on, inserted and wrinkled to fit. Insert Sticks into opening that was pre-cut from the bottom of the water bottle.

Put on window sill or in well lighted area. Watch for dryness, which is visible if no humidity forms inside. transplant when warm enough. You might have to use more perlite and vermiculite to remove easily in spring. Water with Mister Only while in planter.

Becky, I also like to use the light weight coated wire fence partitions, separated and bent to my liking, they stick in the pots real easy and act as a real good vine support.. hope I didn't take up too much of your thread..

great ideas and links everyone.....
those bird cages would make great hangers too.... you could swap the plastic base for a wire hanging basket....mmm....

Emma those are Beautiful!!
Kylie

Thanks, Debra! I'm looking at a lot of different ideas and some retail items to possibly use.

I have been collecting more seeds. It's looking good! I've gotten a few more light seeds. I am not as nervous about messing up this cross experiment. :-) I am going to grow out at least 2 or more over the winter and then save some for Spring and then Summer as well.

Here is a link that lists the Purple Flaked strain of I. purpurea. Is this a true I. purpurea? Or is it a cross species? http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/relatives/02.html

I can't find any information about the Blue Asago Willow Ipomoea nil vine. Anyone have a link they could share with me?


This message was edited Nov 22, 2008 12:22 PM

Here is a photo of the seeds that I have collected so far that are not dark. Out of 68 seeds collected to date, 14 are lighter color. That's about 20%. Don't know how many more I'll get as I wasn't as diligent about crossing since the Blue Asago Willow wasn't blooming as much as time went on. But I did try crossing the Purple Flakes with other I. nils. Though all those have dark seeds. So I can't visually determine what may have crossed from those.

The larger seeds in this photo are seeds that may not have been completely dry yet. With the cold temps, I collected a couple of pods that were crispy brown but not quite complete brown on the Sepal and Peduncle (stem). I'm planning on buying some sterile soil-less mix today to plant a few of them.

Here they ALL are. I had to darken the photo a bit, so the lighter seeds seem darker than in real life.

Something that I have been wondering about ...

If in fact, these seeds do produce an I. purpurea crossed with an I. nil ...

if the seeds germinate, grow, and bloom ...

what do I cross future blooms with?

Should I also grow out more Blue Asago Willow seeds, more Purple Flaked seeds, or just try to cross it with itself? I'm trying to figure out what seeds I need to be growing out at this time during this experiment to produce more seeds (for sharing ... of course!).

hi becky... well done :-) and i would try all three ways :-)

Becky - The Ipomoea purpurea flaked strain is definitely Ipomoea purpurea and not an inter-specific hybrid of any type...there is nothing on the page that you linked to that states otherwise...

The seeds from pods that have not completely 'cured' in the usual manner that would occur on pods exposed to the outdoor elements can sometimes be a lighter color than the darker seeds that have cured completely outdoors...as I've also harvested seeds from pods that were almost fully ripened outdoors which yielded lighter colored seeds...if the lighter seedcoat is the result of atypical curing,the lighter trait will not be passed on to the next generation...

The advice Colin offered is sound...

I'm interested to see what the light seeds that you harvested from the flaked purpurea actually produce...and to what degree the resultant plants may differ from a flaked purpurea...


Best of Luck...(!)


TTY,...


Ron

Thanks for that information, Ron. I, too, thought that maybe immature seeds would be tan instead of dark, so I opened a couple unripe ones to see what the seeds would look like. They were dark, not tan. I can't explain the tan seeds at all except that they are most likely a cross with Blue Asago Willow I. nil vine.

I did get some tan I. purpurea seeds from Arlene this past week. Or at least I believe they are I. purpurea seeds. She had the packet marked Pink/Blue Star. And she had them mixed in with some Grandpa Ott's dark seeds. There were quite a few seeds, which also had me assuming they were I. purpureas. Is there a way to tell for sure if seeds are I. purpurea or I. nil ? I am hoping that they are indeed tan seedcoat I. purpureas so that I can use them to cross with some dark seedcoated I. nils.

I'm just having too much fun!!! :-)

Ron - When I clicked on the photo on Dr. Yoneda's webpage, I got this:

Aomurasakizyouhantensibori, Bluish purple flaked, Flaked
Copyright 1998-2004 Yoshiaki Yoneda

Corolla bluish-purple flaked spots and stripes. This is the first strain used for producing interspecific hybrids between an African strain of Ipomoea nil and Ipomoea purpurea.

Looks like it might just be a cross already afterall ...

Here is a pic of Esterella Blue I bought last spring on ebay , it's the same like Pink/Blue Star of Arlene in fact an variation of Sydney.
10 % of the flower are pink and 100 % of the seeds are tan like the Sydney seeds .

Dany

dany... lovely estrella blue..... can i get a couple of seeds of those??

becky... the pics you linked to on yoneda site are ipomoea purpurea Aomurasakizyouhantensibori (bluish-purple flaked) and are the same as the ones we grow...
this is the pic of the F1(first generation cross) hybrid between I nil(african strain) X I purpurea(bluish-purple flaked strain) http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/Images/PCD2521/C/26.jpg

from this yoneda developed the seiwa strain (presuambly by backcrossing to i nil)...
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/Images/PCD2521/C/27.jpg
and through backcrossing to ipomoea nil he developed youjiro strain... giving us chachamaru etc.....
and by introducing the dragonfly leaf gene, which has the added affect of increasing bloom size, someone gave us the fugi types :-)

apparently the original cross was pollen sterile but fortunatley was able to produce seed using either ipomoea nil or ipomoea purpurea pollen in back crosses.

good luck... i'm so excited for you :-)

Colin , Seiwa is not a pure purpurea ? it is and hybrid ?

.... becky... just a thought...
if you are aiming to "rust proof" your vines through this endevour.... i would also try using the pollen of any vine/type/strain (dunno what term to use) of ipomoea nil that you have noticed being more resistant to rust than others in your back crosses.... if that makes sense :-)

colin

dany... i don't know for sure.... but... if the original plants were pollen sterile then the second generation (f2) must have been backcrossed to either i nil or i purpurea and if you read this link, it quite clearly says seiwa was developed from the f2 generation and therefore has hybrid ancestry.
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/relatives/04_2.html

here are some other strains produced by backcrossing the original hybrids to ipomoea nil
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/relatives/04_3.html


edited for clarity...
This message was edited Nov 24, 2008 9:52 AM

This message was edited Nov 24, 2008 9:56 AM

Colin - ditto,ditto ditto...

Becky - Read this again carefully

"This is the first strain used for producing interspecific hybrids between an African strain of Ipomoea nil and Ipomoea purpurea."

This is NOT saying 'this is the first hybrid used to create hybrids and it seems that you are mis-interpreting the statement this way...

The statement by Yoneda is saying:

This (I.purpurea flaked) was the first strain (of Ipomoea purpurea) used for

1) producing hybrids

between

2) an African nil

and

3) an Ipomoea purpurea (the flaked strain)

The I.purpurea flaked strain was used as the first I.purpurea to hybridize with a nil to create
a hybrid of I.purpurea and I.nil,but the Ipomoea purpurea flaked strain used to create the unspecified hybrid is 100% I.purpurea...

The I.purpurea flaked strain was used in the production of an inter-specific hybrid,but the I.purpurea used in the production of the hybrid was not itself a hybrid...

The flaked pattern is present in pure I.purpurea AND in the interspecific hybrids produced through usage of the I.purpurea flaked strain...


Ipomoea purpurea flaked non-hybrids
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2521/htmls/13.html
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2521/htmls/14.html
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2521/htmls/15.html


Ipomoea purpurea flaked used with Ipomoea nil to create interspecific hybrids
Flaked F1, F2 and (potentially) other filial generational hybrids
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/relatives/04_2.html
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2521/htmls/26.html
Flaked Seiwa - an interspecific hybrid
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2521/htmls/27.html


Hope that helps to clarify...


TTY,...


Ron


P.S. - "Hey Ron,how do we determine if a flaked plant that we have is an Ipomoea purpurea or a hybrid ?

Look at the sepal structure...

1) the I.purpurea sepals look like purpurea sepals

and the

2) hybrid sepals look like I.nil sepals...just like the youjiro hybrids...


This message was edited Nov 24, 2008 3:25 AM

i think for the sake of clarity that we should avoid using the term hybrid for the youjiro and fugi strains... (and maybe even seiwa)

due to the high level of backcrossing to ipomoea nil needed to produce fertile strains... what you have is a strain of ipomoea nil with a few genetic elements from i purpurea... in nature this would be called geneflow... and would not mean that plants showing these traits are hybrids....

genetic elements from ipomoea hederacea are also in some ipomoea nil strains.
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/relatives/04_1.html
the genes for the leaf type of ipomoea hederacea being transferred to ipomoea nil... producing such wonderfull leaf combinations as:
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2523/htmls/44.html
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2523/htmls/45.html
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2523/htmls/46.html
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/PCD2523/htmls/47.html

I think.... ipomoea nil strains with a small amount of documented interspecific hybrid ancestry is a better way of understanding it... or even just ipomoea nil.

the seeds that becky has produced are (hopefully) inter-specific hybrids however.

Colin

Colin - I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter,however regarding the following observations that you expressed:

"genetic elements from ipomoea hederacea are also in some ipomoea nil strains."

Ipomoea hederacea and Ipomoea nil are not known to have hybridized inter-specifically in the wild and the link and citations you provided do not state otherwise...

"I think... ipomoea nil strains with a small amount of documented inter-specific hybrid ancestry is a better way of understanding it... or even just ipomoea nil."

I agree that is a simple way to explain it if and when a question arises and I have approached some entries in the PlantFiles from this point of view...

"due to the high level of backcrossing to ipomoea nil needed to produce fertile strains... what you have is a strain of ipomoea nil with a few genetic elements from i purpurea... in nature this would be called geneflow... and would not mean that plants showing these traits are hybrids..."

The fact of the matter IS that due to the FACT that Ipomoea hybridize so rarely under totally natural conditions (in such strong contradistinction to species in many other plant groups),that inter-specific hybrids should be referred to as true hybrids...

The standard scenario in Ipomoea is that any inter-specific crossings are very rare and the standard should constitute the rule and rare exceptions should be treated as such i.e., rare exceptions.

Ipomoea cordatotriloba and Ipomoea lacunosa will hybridize under natural conditions and the result is Ipomoea x leucantha which is one of the few documented natural hybrids known to occur in Ipomoea and which has been addressed extensively in the relevant peer reviewed literature which includes addressing the genetic drift that you mentioned.

The natural inter-specific hybrids within the Ipomiea genus are all within the series batatas and all other documented inter-specific hybrids are the result of focused intentional human hand pollination,e.g., Ipomoea sloteri.

The true inter-specific hybrids are referred to as such in the current professional peer reviewed literature,the Genome project and on Dr.Y.Yoneda's website...

True inter-specific hybrids in Ipomoea (whether as may rarely occur in Nature or induced by hand pollination) are considered to be NEW species by the international professional botanical community and I think that it is imperative to maintain consistency with the international professional scientific standards and peer reviewed literature.

Japan insists on retaining some antiquated positions relative to the scientific study of Ipomoea and I attribute this to the residual affects of the old school view regarding the 'benefits' of pre-war isolationism...but we are now in the computer age...

Dr.Yoneda previously stated on his website and in other published papers that Ipomoea nil definitely originated in China and only after Prof.Daniel F. Austin collaborated with Dr.Yoneda did Dr.Yoneda partially recant and state that it appears that the genetic information indicates that Ipomoea nil 'could have' originated in South America.
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/Ipomoea/05.html


Japan continues to use outdated terminology to refer to the Ipomoea genus as Pharbitis creating confusion amongst people who are trying to learn via internationally accepted standards and although the usage of outdated terminology may be seen by the japanese as somehow maintaining their 'independence', it realistically places them in an outmoded position as per international standards...
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/e/Ipomoea/04.html
Pharbitis is an internationally accepted subgenus and section of Ipomoea
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/Ipomoea/02.html
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/e/taxonomy/Pharbitis.html

The procedure for assigning a new species name for the I.nil x I.purpurea hybrids was not initiated nor instituted in Japan as it would have been in the US or other first world countries to be in compliance with International standards.

International standards in Science greatly facilitate scientific progress as compared to non-standardization which inhibits scientific progress...deviations from International Standards as may be occur in scientific papers or presentations should be duly noted most especially by any readers if any authors fail to note any deviations from International Standards.

"i think for the sake of clarity that we should avoid using the term hybrid for the youjiro and fugi(sic) strains... (and maybe even seiwa)"

I have for the strong reasons cited traditionally referred to true inter-specific hybrids as hybrids and I strongly recommend that this nomenclatural usage be maintained.


Regards,


Ron

P.S. - The MG Community uses the website of Dr.Yoneda as a major reference and although there is some divergence from International Standards (as per Dr.Yoneda's usage of Pharbitis which he has appropriately brought to the readers attention),Dr.Yoneda's website otherwise does follow International Standards and it should be followed.

There are instances where the usage of certain Romaji terms and / or translations from Japanese characters may result in an 'awkward' concept relative to understanding in English.

English is the internationally accepted Scientific and colloquial language (like it or not) and the usage of English descriptive and / or explanatory terms that are in accordance with International Scientific terminology should take precedence over terminology as may be used in other languages, or 'awkward' translations as may be initially rendered from any other language.

Botanical Latin is used for certain functions in botany,but the translation of what that botanical latin means should be translated into English as the current primary Scientific language.

Fascinating information. Thanks Colin and Ron for the wonderful clarification and explanation for me and others here!

So ... I see Youjiro mentioned. Is this perhaps the reason why so many of the Youjiro strains are sterile? That is something that has really been a frustration to me ... most of the Youjiro crosses I have done have proven to produce mostly sterile blooms. (No pollen.) But I cross them with other I. nils and they still come up sterile in the following generation. So perhaps that is why so few are discovered to be created naturally? They don't easily reproduce after one generation?

Colin - I have yet to find an I. nil vine that seems to be more resistent to rust. :-( The I. nils are highly susceptible to rust fungus attacks. :-( Moonflowers, tri-color, and I. purpureas all seem resistent to rust in my yard.

Right now, the only MGs blooming are my Blue Star and the Moonflowers. Both are open most mornings. So ... you know me ... I've been hand-crossing those two. LOL! Probably won't happen, but a girl's gotta try ... cause ya just never know! LOL!

Wow, I have to re-read all this just to digest it.. and hopefully retain it.. I love a challenge.. LOL
Becky.. I am glad you are trying to cross those two.. wouldn't it be grand to have a moonflower with touches of Blue or even a blue "star" center?

No kidding, Debra! It does boggle the mind...

I've gone back and read what both Ron and Colin have written and looked at the links both posted. Sat a moment. Then scrolled back up this thread and re-read and looked at the photos on those links again. And then read again what was stated with the photos on Yoneda's website. And you know what it does to me? Puts a TON of questions in my mind! LOL!

I'm wondering since I am crossing the Purple Flaked vine with a medium blue I. nil bloom if the flakes are going to show up very well against a possible solid blue background on the bloom ... like that of the Blue Asago Willow bloom. Of course, I am getting way ahead of myself here. I am assuming the seeds are a cross...

The evil part of me is thinking I should cross this Purple Flake with Hanafubuki or even more crazy ... with Ten Ten or Fuji Shibori! LOL! It would look Schizophrenic and I could name it Sybil. :-)

LOL at this joke of the day ...
Why be difficult, when with a bit of effort, you can be impossible?
Hmmmm ... Maybe I should change my motto ... hee, hee

Photo of Fuji Shibori

Ron - I have a couple questions for you ...

What does the "F" stand for in F1? I see that letter used for the next generations. Dumb question, but I wanna know ...

Next questions:

If the sepal structure looks like I. purpurea, does that mean that it is definitely NOT a cross? Or can there be a cross that has sepals that resemble I. purpurea characteristics with other minor characteristics of I. nil? Do I. nil sepals dominate in crosses between these two species?

I want leaves like that of the Purple Flaked cultivar as I am thinking that would be a trait that would possibly be rust resistant. Is it unlikely to get those leaves with an I. nil cross?

Or ... are my questions an unknown until I grow these bad boys out and see what I get?

I know you have been studying MGs for most of your life. You've done a lot of research on such hybrids and I haven't a clue what to expect if I am fortunate enough to have successfully crossed these two species.

thanks ron... only way to learn :-)))

becky... good luck with your i tricolor/i alba hybrids.... tho' i wouldn't hold my breath :-)) i didn't know that youjiro crosses had pollen problems (lol) becky... thats realy interesting.... maybe you should try your possible hybrid with a youjiro too... are your youjiro's better at handling rust than pure i nils? :-))) (sorry i just end up with more questions aswell)

colin

Colin - My hybrid IS a youjiro!! "Yaguruma" comes from youjiro genes. LOL! And that hybrid cross and all my I. nils are no match for rust fungus. I haven't found an I. nil that does not succumb to rust once it attacks it. I don't want to treat them with a strong fungicide because of the butterflies, bees, and hummingbirds that nectar from my MG blooms. So my enjoyment of I. nil vines is usually short-lived. If I lived in a drier climate zone, I wouldn't have that problem. But Florida is rainy and humid except on the hottest days and coldest nights. So ... long term I. nil vines are unheard of here. LOL! But maybe that will change if they do well growing indoors! I'm hopeful ... :-)

This message was edited Nov 25, 2008 4:32 PM

Becky, I never had rust on any plants (MGS) in my backyard until it got kinda too wet towards the end of fall with a non stop rain.. and then it was the vines by my back door that got the rust.. I didn't know it was rust! Isn't rust a fungus? Oh! n/m i see it is..:P

Debra - Yep! The rain is what causes the rust spores to spread. Rust is nasty stuff!!! One good thing though ... it hasn't hurt the seed production once the pods are formed. I still collected lots of seeds from most of my vines from the Spring grow-out! Thank goodness!

My dh is off for 5 days. I bought the wood and brackets to add the shelves to my window. He will be doing that for me in the next day or two. :-) I'll be starting the seeds at that time. I need that heat and the sunlight to grow these seeds, so didn't want to start them until I had the right set-up for them. I don't like wasting good seeds ...

This message was edited Nov 25, 2008 11:08 PM

I am so excited for you Becky! You are lucky to have a DH that will build for you! I can't wait until you start planting.. so exciting!

Thanks Debra. I'm kinda excited myself. I'm just happy to have the possibility to have MG flowers in winter! LOL! I love them so! And I need the distraction now too with all the stress in my life at this time. These blooms brighten my day ... every day! :-)

BTW - My dh is not building anything elaborate. Quite the contrary. He is just sawing a 1" x 6" board in half and notching the corners out so the wood will slide up against my window glass. And he's putting a bracket at each side of the window frame to sit the wooden board/shelf on. LOL! I might paint the board if I feel froggie enough. But .. trust me ... nothing fancy or pretty! Except my vines (I hope!).

This message was edited Nov 25, 2008 11:13 PM

I hear ya.. I think you will prolly have great luck with them, Becky.. you have a "green arm" so to speak, and I am sure it will show! I hope you have a great holiday with your family.. hug your momma for me..
OH! the purple blizzard and the moon flowers have their first little "real" leaves now..