Fixing the co-op forum II (continuing the discussion)

The easiest way, IMHO, to distribute the proposed coop advertising fee is to divide it among the units to be sold. If a host finds a discount if ten units are sold and it costs $5 to find other participants to reach the 10 unit goal then the cost per unit goes up 50¢.

If I find an item that costs $10 and find a vendor willing to sell 10 of those items for $6 each then I "advertise" knowing where I can get the item for $6.50 if nine others are willing to buy at the same time. The coop fee is paid and ten people got a deal and nobody got something for free.

I've also seen the deal worked out on a thread where the vendor agreed to direct ship to each buyer, charging the "sale" price of $6 . I wasn't thinking of it at the time (and NO, I wasn't directly involved) but that is against the guidelines for a coop. The vendor got free advertising and sales that other vendors pay for. I'm sure this is one area distressing to Admin's efforts to level the playing field.

Terry,

I just want to see if I can get more clarification on who is a vendor...etc.

I am seriously considering making and selling garden art as a hobby. no TIN or anything, and definitely not a permanent job. so if I decide to make and sell the garden art on the DG Marketplace.... or place an add in classifieds....

does that mean I am a vendor and can no longer do co-ops for plants, bulbs and the atlas gloves everyone loves? I would not be doing a co-op for the things that I make, just the same co-ops I have done before.... I dont understand why the two would be correlated.... as I would never be selling the gloves, bulbs or plants on the marketplace or classifieds. to me they are two separate things.

1Anjl, I could see that as being a hard to define area. I was thinking of making that one of the questions I presented. Art and crafts are tough ones. The same item can be hung on a wall in your house or on a tree in your yard. A ceramic bird feeder can be used as a decorative item in your living room. The art question is tough. Even pottery and stained glass items, it's hard to distinguish in these area which are gardening related items, and which aren't.

Maybe the question should be, would these be items that you would ever offer in a coop? If the answer is no, then maybe that should decide the issue. Art is not generally produced in a large quantity so it seems that there is little danger that you would ever be offering these items in one of your coops, thus no self promotion.

no nothing I would make would ever be offered in a co-op. just on a website, or on the DG marketplace.

The co-op items that I do are strictly bulbs, plants and gloves and I can hardly grow thoseyet! lol! so nothing I would sell, do give away clippings tho! lol!

thats why I cant understand the rule.... if I am only marketing items that I make in the correct ways, and never mentioning them in forums or threads.... why would that prevent me from hosting a glove co-op in the future?

1Anjl, I think the key to this one is are they one of a kind original pieces of art. Certainly mass produced yard ornaments would fall within the vendor description, but original art probably wouldn't, as no one would ever be likely to use a coop to sell them.

no not mass produced, all original one of a kind. I am holding off on doing anything yet... dont know if I want to venture into it if Admin says no hosting because of it. It a pretty expensive cost outlay to get restarted in it.... LOL!

Hosts, for those items where the vendor offers no guaranty, Think about having your suppliers, or you, have some of the items being offered set aside to be offered in classifieds for the duration of the coop. Charge more for the items being sold in classified. Offer a guaranty on the ones sold in the ad, and classified sales would be the only ones where there would be refunds or replacements. State the no refunds, no guaranty clause on the coop page along with a link to the classified ad.

If there were a buyer order fee set aside for cancelled orders, it could also be used to cover the costs of any refunds. If, at the end of the coop, there were still some in the classified group unsold, they could be offered on the coop. If there are no claims for refund, then $ can be returned to coop buyers or donated to charity. When folks buying in the coop would try to place claims to the Host or DG, either could point to the ones carrying the guaranty vs. which ones offered on the coop. Buying on the coop would indicate that the buyer clearly chose to buy without a warranty.

I have been lurking and reading and you all have such good but divergent ideas that I am all confused. Are we still planning on keeping the "I accept the risk" button and the co-host idea for co-ops? Is there going to be a closed "host members only" forum for training and ideas for hosts? Those seem to be really good ideas to me. I know it was mentioned somewhere that it would be a good idea to try to keep things as simple as possible.

LOL, tetley I am with you.... seems the suggestions are all over the board.

maybe to keep things simple.... each hostess would be requited to post in bold at the top of the ordering thread the 'buy at your own risk....DG will not dispute problems...etc' clause, and state that by placing an order on the thread you understand this clause and accept it. that would do away with the 'button' and programming needs.

but I do believe there should be a standard format for all co-ops. spreadsheet, with another person who has access to make changes (in case of emergency) and proof of purchase once items are bought...should show actual cost to hostess so no one is overcharging and making excess money. also.... would like to see where the 'packaging' fee goes, since most shipments are in free usps flat rate boxes...etc... I cant imagine tape and ink costing $1 per box....

I think since they ARE co-ops all monetary amounts should be available to all participants at all times....just so it isnt a money making or marketing scheme for the hostess.

I think that is micromanaging the efforts a little, if you don't trust your host, you shouldn't be in it in the first place...

Anjl.. This " maybe to keep things simple... each hostess would be requited to post in bold at the top of the ordering thread the 'buy at your own risk...DG will not dispute problems...etc' clause, and state that by placing an order on the thread you understand this clause and accept it. that would do away with the 'button' and programming needs. "

would be a good suggestion for hostess to to.

This.."but I do believe there should be a standard format for all co-ops. spreadsheet, with another person who has access to make changes (in case of emergency) " I don't think so good. Agree with Fairy that it might be micromanaging and maybe like me when it storms I can't get on line, and somebody could come through and make some changes ordo somethign that could a host in a bad situation. The host is responisble for all they do and say and howthey manage, somebody could offer to help if asked, but ultimate responsibility has to stay with the host alone.

I've seen coop have problems before where folks jumped the gun making decisions and the host had an emergency. The host wa sonly gone hours noteven days and folks let a rumor scale into mass panic. Felt sorry for the host. Some folks totally lose all their manners on the coops.

Tetley, Nothing has been decided yet. I'm sure the administration is mulling over the various suggestions for preference and feasability.

You are right, the simpler the better. People keep posting ideas in the hopes of finding solutions that won't cost DG a lot of time or money, but will provide for professionally managed coops that still maintain a friendly atmosphere..

I think an emergency back-up person is an excellent idea... the host should have their phone number, to make it easy to get in touch if help is needed. I also agree that the back-up person should not jump in without verifying the situation with the host... and the host could always choose to give the spreadsheet password only when/if needed.

(LOL... am now envisioning a little card for my wallet in January: "If anything should happen to me, please contact Danita at xxx-xxx-xxxx. Tell her the password is "Ladibugg." I would feel like such a super-agent!)

A backup with a phone # is fine, but they shouldn't have access to things before that need arises...I am just throwing in my opinions here:)

Would it be possible (and ethical) for vendors to have a place to post the availability of items for a coop? If a host responds then a coop happens. The vendor hasn't directly contacted a shill. The product was posted as available to anyone inclined to do a coop.

The scenario running through my head is a vendor planted an area with petunias and advertised them for sale in classified and sold half. It's half-way through the season so he places an ad marking the rest down 40%. He's still got a dozen flats left and needs room to plant poinsettias for the Christmas season so the petunias are offered for a coop. At 60% off the vendor isn't making a profit and doesn't want to tie up his time or labor for individual orders since he needs it (the time and labor) to get the poinsettias started.

This would provide an approved list of vendors since they have previously purchased advertising at DG. A vendor outside the system wouldn't be allowed to use DG Marketplace as a dump station. It might bring in more advertising revenue and possibly reduce our membership subscriptions although I wouldn't want to hold my breath till that happens.

GK, It would seem like that would be ok if done through classifieds. If there were a host living nearby the nursery, they could go and inspect the plants. If the coop actually takes place, then plants could be picked up and not have double shipping.

In reading another thread, someone posted that they thought that many of the complaints might be coming from people who are new to coops and did not understand the rules. They suggested "new member training".

What about a permanent thread in the coop forum called "New to coops?" and have a simple primer (coops for dummies LOL) explaining the rules, processes and expectations. All coop interest & order threads could carry a link to the thread in the opening post.

The back-up host is a fine idea. I question whether the DG network has a place for setting up spreadsheets so more than one can have access. Not being that computer literate I can't imagine being able to edit someone else's post.

I also like the idea of a spreadsheet being posted as a sticky thread. That way I can see how close we are to finishing the coop and can decide to buy more or goad my friends into buying more.

GK alot of us use Google Docs. When we give permission anyone can access the spreadsheet

I am with Anjl and think her spreadsheet idea is a must have and also like the idea of a "sticky" at the top for easy acess. Have to make sure that while everyone can access the spreadsheet only two can make changes.

Only 1 unless an emergency happens is my feeling-no offense, but I get territorial over my documents-I have it set up the way it works with autocalc and all, and I know if there is a mess up that I only have myself to blame, but if someone else had access to change, then that opens a whole nother can o' worms....

But yes, I agree that an easily formatted one to be used by hosts, however, with the variety of co-ops offered that will be hard. Autocalc for each one depending on vendor is different as well as the # and purpose of the columns, so maybe there can be instructions, or peeps to contact to help you get one set up, or examples, things like that??????

I see no problem with a "New to coops" sticky thread. It could also be the place for the "Buyer Beware" message.

Personally, if I participated in a coop and ordered a $15 plant selling for $5 I would feel a fool for complaining it wasn't as good as one I paid full price. Evidently some don't look at it that way and blame Admin for allowing it to happen. OTOH, I'd feel cheated if it arrived beyond salvage negating my skill to nurture it back to thriving. If the Buyer Beware message left me no recourse but to suck it up and swallow the loss I would develop a bad attitude toward coops quickly.

I prefer to think I'd not post messages in a thread for the next coop the host organized about how I got ripped off in the last one but that's a bridge I haven't had to cross yet. I'm not always the good and let bygones be bygones person I am trying to be. I'm assuming some people definitely are not.

My thinking exactly Fairy. I have never used one so I do not really know how to do it. I would say that the only person that should be able to change it is the hostess and the designated backup in case of emergency. It should be one that is formatted according to the specifics of each co-op. It would make everyone's life easier and all participants would always know what was going on with that particular co-op.

In checking out the coop forum, I'm surprised to find that there are no intructional sticky threads at all. It would seem appropriate to have a guide for buyers and one for hosts. Perhaps this is a project for a group of experienced hosts and some concerned shoppers.

Stormy, that is exactly what is needed. There could be a sticky with links to these guides that are simple to understand and very precise. We have a lot of experienced hosts as well as other talented folks that should have no problem in writing these up. Along with the "I accept the risk" button these should be a must have IMO.

Yup Tetley-I sometimes have peeps count backup for me, but only I have editing purposes for the original...if something did happen to me, I have several DGers that live by me that could hop in-or DH would do it for me:)

The problem with the complaint issue is that there are some complaints that the Administration is going to want to hear. After all, it is Dave's Garden. Anything involving fraud or violating the AUP or otherwise disrupting site usage or creating liability for DG needs to be brought to their attention. Preventing & screening the complaints would seem to be the answers.

The analogy of complaining to mabell for a purchase at sears is not completely accurate. You don't make your sears purchase on mabell's website. This is more of an ebay situation. Ebay & Paypal have problem resolution systems as they should, because revenues derived from buying & selling are their main revenue sources. As DG pointed out, coops are just one of their many forums.

There have been several threads discussing how to host a co-op.
I agree with Fairy regarding the micromanaging. While I have no problem with everyone seeing my records, receipts, etc. I don't want anyone messing with them - it's my mess and I understand it...but I have no problem with learning a standard spreadsheet for simplicity's sake....

I completely agree with Fairy's statement, "... if you don't trust your host, you shouldn't be in it in the first place..."

Briefly regarding the handling/overhead fees: these will be different for each co-op. Some will require more materials that must be purchased (ie. baggies or plastic wrap, paper towels, etc for rooted plants) than others. The way I've figured it was to add up the cost of all needs and determine what percentage it is of the total purchase, so it's not a flat fee per participant, it's based on amount purchased, say 2-3%. Often I would not have a receipt for materials used because I stockpile needful things, since I don't live close to anything (Walmart=128 miles minimum; Target half that), but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be reimbursed. I think when there is extra, we're usually talking about a dollar a person, and "my" co-ops have handled that by donating it, usually to a critter based organization.

Well, that wasn't brief, was it?

Can anyone think of a way to do a group "class" on spreadsheets so that the spreadsheet impaired (me) can learn how to do them. One of the many things I have been putting off.
Graph paper and pencil work just fine for me but I guess its time to change.

It would be much easier to design a couple of spreadsheet templates to use, and have a group tutorial on how to use them, instead of how to create AND use a spreadsheet. I will offer my services for that if needed.

4Paws, Is there a way to find the most comprehensive of those old threads and make it sticky?

I understand about the stockpiling of supplies, you should see my basement! When someone receives your package and sees that the plants come in plastic bags, they know you had to buy them. I don't think receipts are necessary. Unless you have a scanner, how would you post them here?

We all have an idea of what baggies and tape cost, so if most folks want a breakdown of the costs, then they could be itemized on the spreadsheet or simply listed as a total. Basing the cost per plant is more equitable. Someone who buys more plants uses up more supplies.

Hi all,

my suggestion for a back up person is just ONE person, for me it would be my sister. I can add her as a collaborator on my google spreadsheet. so, IF something happened to me she could just automatically step in when I or DH calls and start documenting info. so there would be less confusion for participants if I suddenly had to have surgery again...she would just post and say Anjl has an emergency and I am stepping in to help answer questions and take orders. so kinda like the 'mentor' situation that you all were talking about. my backup person would have knowledge of all aspects of the co-op from the get go....so she could easily step in and take over.


as for the accounting of funds. my thoughs came from an email that I received when I did my first co-op. It was a request from another co-op host stating that I needed to increase my 'packing fees' because there was no reason why a co-op host shouldnt 'make money' for their efforts and my low fee charge was making people question the higher fees. this goes against my personal principals, something I would never do in a co-op purchase. I do understand that my costs to run a co-op may be different than anothers... my ink doesnt cost as much as some printers, I get free paper, most of my shipments are in the free flat rate boxes, my PO box is across the street from my sons school... etc. so thats why I suggested the accounting for the 'packaging fees' on the co-ops. some host/hostesses are just not as ethical and co-ops are not supposed to be income producing for anyone.

just wanted to account for my thoughts :o)

I think as long as there is A spreadsheet....shouldnt have to be a standard one. the co-op for irises, I had over 200 different irises, and some there were only 5 of each variety. so I would need to create my own spreadsheet for that co-op and input programming that immediately lets me know when that certain named variety sold out! lol! or I could never keep track of such a co-op!

same thing on the gloves, my ss is programmed to turn the whole column red once we reached 144 of each variety so that I knew it was sold out and no more orders could be taken.


I just think for all co-ops, there should be a spreadsheet that participants can see to account for their charges and totals. also a posting of the actual order that was placed and what was charged to the hostess (ie cut copy and paste the invoice into a photo on dg and post on the thread)

If anyone ever needs help setting up a spreadsheet, just let me know, I'll volunteer to walk you thru a google spreadsheet and show you how they are done :o)

AnjL

AnjL, I agree 100%. The lack of accounting has kept me from participating in the co-ops I've watched. I think spreadsheets would keep everyone honest and SHOULD be less of a headache for the host/hostess, as well as participants.

This message was edited Nov 15, 2008 2:29 PM

1Anjl, I was having those same thoughts you expressed about having standarized spreadsheets. Specifically, I was thinking about the two coops you mentioned and realized that one size does not fit all. Perhaps you could make the spreadsheets that were created for these coops as part of a collection of spreadsheet prototypes.

I've never run a coop and probably never will, but I imagine that there are all sorts of hidden costs. With the recent gas prices, trips to the post office can add up. If you have other members help you pack and sort, then maybe you provide them all with refreshments and they all had to use gas to get there to. Some hosts probobably are willing to donate the costs of some of these expenses, while others are not. People should keep in mind that not only are Hosts donating a considerable amount of their time, but also resources as well.

Anyone who needs a tutorial on SS, just ask, I developed several for work and have passed my own along to some peeps here that run co-ops....

Excel is a program that I have on my computer to creat spreadsheets and other docs. On the co-op I hosted I created the spreadsheet on Excel then uploaded it on to Google - everyone was able to view it with the link I added on the first post of the order thread. One size definitely does not fit all - I see no problem with different SS as long as participants can view and it is easy to read

If anyone needs help - I'd be glad to assist

I have an update - The company I'm with changed the policy for avdertising/linking on the internet - I guess change is universal - So I have submitted an ad to classifieds -for those who were asking

Hmmm, my kids use excel. I wonder if they know how to do spreadsheets. Never thought they would have a reason to know that. If they can get me started, I will play for a while and then dmail the many people that offered to assist when I get stuck.

Thanks all

AnjL, did I read correctly? A former host suggested you make money, not just charge enough to cover your additional costs? Sometimes that's hard to estimate, particularly if shipping to the host first is an estimate, or some part of an order gets cancelled, but making a profit intentionally is not advised.

Usually unexpected leftover funds are addressed ahead of time (donation, angel fund, refund if over a certain amount), but if we're talking a couple of dollars - I'd love for the host to be able to have a candy bar on me, or heck, a marguerita if that's what she needs. Or to have someone else clean up the mess for a reasonable wage....

Stormyla, no one distilled the threads down to one. It's one of those things that in retrospect may fall under "should have been" but wasn't, done.

chris any time you want to learn, jut dmail me. there is a chat section on the google spreadsheet so I can give you step by step instructions (as I have done for quite a few folks here! lol!) in the chat. you just need to sign up for a goolge account. and dmail me. that goes for anyone who is wanting to learn how to program a spreadsheet! I'm at home most days, have the time and the patience, and dont mind helping out at all! LOL!

AND if it werent for our wonderful FAIRY here, who taught me the initial ropes of the spreadsheet... I would know nothing! LOL! (thanks fairy!!)

I have noticed this thread is getting kind of long, may we have another please? :^)