Fixing the co-op forum II (continuing the discussion)

Fairy, I agree that a vendor run and operated coop belongs in the marketplace. I really enjoyed your perennial coop.

You repeatedly explained that we were getting plugs that would require weeks of care before they could go into the ground. Everything that could go wrong with the orders did, but all were quickly worked out.

In the recent IRIS coop, the host repeatedly warned that the plants had been out of the ground for over two weeks and would appear to be distressed.

Any member who brings complaints to DG about these plants should be penalized for tying up DG's resources.

No, stormy, I am absolutely no way, not saying move the co-ops out of the forum, I am only saying that to get into a buying thread on the forum, you have to go through a classified ad. (I LOVE the chat/sharing aspect of co-ops!)

So, an interest thread goes through its processes and a co-op is decided. The host writes and buys the ad, based on the information on the vendor and what the co-op will be offering. The classified contains a link back to a "members only" type thread that first has the disclaimers to go through before getting to the actual order thread. The order thread would not be visible to anyone who did not follow the links to get there. Thus, the co-op only is out of the co-op forum long enough for the ad to be approved and posted, at which time the co-op officially opens.

No need for vendor lists, because an advertising fee is paid.
I am assuming the integrity of members who are approached out of the blue to do a co-op.
However there, too, I can see that once a host establishes a relationship with a vendor, s/he (me) might say, "Wow, that went really well, so please think of us when you have a good deal availalbe," just like I asked to keep an eye out for certain colors for our next co-op.

I'm not bright enough to understand that this is not enough to make a vendor in like with the AUP - is it only that they didn't pay the $5 fee directly?

I wholeheartedly agree with the need for a moderator/mentor/mediator whatever the person would be called to hover in the background in case of issues, that in the case of dispute, would have the deciding voice. No recourse beyond that. Agreeing to abide by such a person's decision would also be in the disclaimer statement prior to getting to the order thread.

okay, I didnt get a chance to read thru all the posts here, but now I have yet another question!

If I open a garden website...selling items that I make (not plants etc) does that make me a vendor and not allowed to do co-ops for other items (ones I would not be offering on my website)? I'm really confused on this issue now because of the post on the lady who made pottery, but cant do co-ops? so if someone can answer that question...I'd greatly appreciate it ^_^


as for a fix... how about charging every co-op a $20 fee. This would only apply to a co-op that is a 'go' not to an interest thread... but basically a $20 fee would need to be paid before the order thread can go up. If I'm dealing with a dg member/vendor...the fee would be paid by them, if not a dg member/vendor.... fee would be split by the participants. most co-ops have at least 20 participants and I would gladly pay $1 to be able to get the discounts offered in a co-op buy. if the co-op is member/vendor products...no one in the co-op is going to want to pay that fee...so it would automatically be defaulted over to the member/vendor.

I think this would be a win-win and would also put more revenue into DG to help pay for the cost of monitoring the helpdesk and sending the standard 'we will not get involved in co-op issues' dmail to any complainers.

just a thought...

AnjL

I'm with you, 4paws.

1Anjl, I just went back and read the link that Terry posted in her nov 12th @ 6:57 post. Every definition concerns the sale of plants, seeds and bulbs.

Anjl... I think that one you would have to discuss, with Terry. I also craft home decor items besides doign other things. I have to put them either on the Market Place or the classified.

I could be totally wrogn here, but if you have awebsite and you selling anything, then technically you are a vendor of sorts and can use either classifed and include a link to yoru website or us ethe market place or get listed in a coupel other Dg ways and pay a small fee and provide likes to your website business.

Personally, I think we need three sections, the classified, th eregular coops and a member vendor coop. I proposed a whole lot of things in it that would allow member vendors more participation, benfit Dg and protect buyers alot more than they are being now. it would only allow for only seriously committed member vendors to consider joining this type of coop forum and I feel eliminate alot of complaints.

The problems that would be left would still be the regular non vendor coops, but I think eventually traffic in them would slows more and more folks found they gettign same , or better deals from member vendor ones plus some protection on their buys. At least so many complaints from coops as a general now would be eliminated with the third section.

Maybe, I will see if I can revise my letter to a bunch of questions and suggestions and then ask Terry if I can post it on a thread here for discussion and then ya all will see what I am talking about.

starlight, I think I can envision those three sections, with classifieds tied to both, but I think member vendor hosted co-ops are not the same as member hosted . It may be true that eventually members won't want to set up and buy together because the member vendors will be offering everything they could want, but I'm not leaning toward it, personally.

Supporting community members is a very, very good thing, but reaching outside the community is also a good thing. For example, Pacific Calla is not going to be part of Dave's Garden on the threads; they may be advertising, but even if not, they are the representatives for the growers of the Callafornia Callas. Makes sense to buy direct.

I agree that bad behavior spills into more areas than co-ops. The people that are the problems in that forum are more than likely exhibiting bad behavior all over DG, just not maybe as blatantly.

Some people thrive on drama, and unfortunately that is just the way the world is. It is in trying to curb this behavior and set up enforcable guidelines with strict consequences that I think our solution lies.

There are some people that I have seen have bad behavior or skate out at the last second on a co-op, and to be truthful with you, I would not welcome them into any future one I hold. I would be nice and dmail them and ask them to please remove their post-per X behavior, I would prefer for them not to be a part of mine and as the host I have the right to do that. Case in point, a person that backed out on a VERY large order from a co-op recently-that person shoudl no longer be allowed to participate or run any co-ops for X period of time-a clear consequence for their action. It isn't permanent, but it does "fit the crime".

I recently left neg feedback for a host of a co-op I was in, as soon as I left the feedback, I dmailed her in great detail why I left it and she was very nice, said I had good points and she understood. As in with all things, if there is a consequence, then it is fair to give a clear, concise, detailed explanation. Firm, but fair-that is what we need to have less troublesome co-ops.

I do think it makes sense to move the co-ops to a Classified forum sort of venue, with vendor participation allowed... but I would prefer not to split member vendor and member hosted (with an outside vendor) co-ops. I think we can & should encourage more participation by DG member vendors, for all the reasons people have mentioned, but I don't see any reason for them not to exist side by side with "other" co-ops.

Just as an aside, with all the talk of "member vendors" etc, we are all using the term "member" to mean "paying subscriber." :-)

We are listening to your ideas and trying to look at this from all angles ;o)

For the record, I'm a firm believer in "less is more" when it comes to rules and regulations. No matter how many rules you put in place, or how elaborate your processes are, there will be loopholes. Some will find them accidentally, others will seek them out. In the end, having a myriad of rules only serves to confuse and confound the average, honest person.

I also think it's clear our recent efforts to differentiate between true group buys/co-ops (i.e., members unilaterally organize the purchase, choose a vendor and repackage the bulk shipment) and all other discount/group-buy variations doesn't work--too many people don't recognize the distinction, or value it. A deal is a deal is a deal...

As long as we provide a free (or less-expensive) option, some (not all, but some) people are going to look for the cheapest route, even if that means taking liberties with what each alternative is designed for.

At the end of the day, I'm all for a clear, easy-to-understand solution that lets members participate in group purchases (e.g., discount codes vs. vendor ships vs. organizer ships) in one single area. It should be clear that it is a commercial area so there's no mistaking it for the rest of DG where vendors aren't allowed to mention themselves, (although allowing for member-to-member conversation is obviously important to a lot of you), and just as importantly--it should be clear that entering into any transactions in this area at the member's own risk.

Terry-what do you think about a clear concise "accept" button that has a brief outlining as Chris mentioned I beleive-very cut and dry?? I agree less is more and I think short clear statments can hold the person more responsible for thier actions...what do you think??

How we make it clear is not for me to decide--those are programming considerations.

I guess I was more asking if you thought it was feasible and if you thought that would help in our current situation or not...I wasn't asking how you thought we could make it clear...

Terry, If I sell garden ornaments on Ebay, Am I a vendor? Pots, soil amendments, etc?

How about shoes? Please clarify. Thanks

I think it has to do with if you have a federal ID maybe....that is a good ?? stormy

Fairy, a lot of the feasibility hinges on whether it can be programmed (and whether Dave wants to program it that way or not.)

Stormy, going through a series of hypothetical, "what if" questions just points the need to remove the vendor/non-vendor issue from the equation. Only an individual really knows if they are or are not a vendor. (My personal rule of thumb on judgment calls involving my personal integrity and ethics is this: if I have to ask myself if I am a vendor, then I probably am a vendor ;o)

Having a tax ID or state nursery license is certainly a key indicator, but there are a lot of eBay plant and seed sellers who don't have a nursery license, and probably use their SSN as their TIN.

Terry, It's become apparant from the postings here that in addition to solving the original 2 issues you requested, a third one needs to be included, at least from the member's prospective.

How do we stop disadvantaging the paid member vendors, yet not turn DG into a forum for self promotion? I realize that the creation of the classifieds was probably designed to help with this problem, but it's clear that in it's present form, it still doesn't solve it. Many members want them to be able to supply coops without fear of suspicion of self promotion and many members want them to also host coops offering both their own products as well as those of other vendors.

If we're trying to level the playing field, let's try to make it fair to every one. I'm going to break the summary post into three categories to include this issue. So many good ideas came up yesterday that I need to include, but I want to add those and reorganize all 3 sections to make it easier to work with. It will be tonight's project.

If all co-ops were opened in the classified ads, there could still be chat for those who want it and member vendor's ads would be seen just as readily as co-op ads.

When Terry hosted a co-op for Louisiana irises, she suggested that those who wanted to chat open a thread in the iris forum. Recently those who bought from Maryott's daylily classified ad, opened a thread in the daylily forum to talk about what they had purchased. I've seen the same happen many times along the lines of "What are you ordering from .....?"

The host would not have to open the chat thread and probably shouldn't to keep it separate from the co-op. Actual co-op business and updates could be handled through d-mail. Those who don't want to get d-mail blasts to the group could ask the host to take them off the list.

I guess I don't see where subscriber/vendors have ever been disadvantaged. A vendor can't run a co-op (in its current form), period. It doesn't matter if they are a subscriber or not. The subscriber/vendor actually has an advantage over non-member vendors in that they can access the co-op forum, and can avail themselves to organizers.

Unfortunately, that "insider's knowledge" can create a situation where the vendor is tempted to initiate contact with an organizer, instead of waiting to be asked to supply a co-op. (Ignorance is bliss, and all that.) But I don't see that as a disadvantage--it's just a situation that can present an ethical challenge. The vast majority of subscribed vendors never venture into this gray area. Every PlantScout vendor has a complimentary subscription, so they have access to the co-op forum, but very few of them actively participate.

Terry, One would think that would make it easy, but the vendor definition needs some clarification.

Is a vendor, one who supplies plants, seeds and bulbs or one who supplies any garden related products including even books?

I can't believe that the rule was put there to make any of us who make a living selling anything in our non gardening lives to be considered a vendor. Of course, we shouldn't be hawking our wares in the forums.

patrob, in those instances, was the member/vendor able to answer questions regarding the plants or process? If so, were they then violating the no self promotion rule?

"Aye, there's the rub".

If you vend garden "stuff", how would we possibly know if you are selling your own items in a co-op, or piggybacking off a bulk order to augment your own inventory?

And to answer to your other question, I know Iris City Gardens didn't answer any questions, (I'm not sure they're a subscriber), and I doubt Maryott's did either.

I think we should keep in mind that there is really no advantage in having a button someone has to push to accept as opposed to just having a statement in the heading of the co-op forum: Please read the guidelines/rules for hosting and participating in a co-op before posting --There is no guarantee that the individual will actualy read just because they have to push a button -- All it does is make more work for Dave and his staff - things like that can give those with the job of programming/maintaining site real headaches - My husband works in the computer services field as a manager for Bank of America - to the average person - It's let's stick a button here - but what do you do when - someone pushes the button and it doesn't work - it will just create a different kind of headache

I'd like to say one more thing - Let's not forget why we are here in the first place - We want Co-ops

So - let's not get attached to any of the ideas that have been suggested- This will be most helpful for Dave if we all put in our two cents and them let him take them and choose what he thinks will work best -

I do like the idea that was of identifying Subscribers who would like to sell their wares to DG members with a posting of either their website or e-mail - charging the subscriber more for membership - whatever Dave feels would be acceptable - with this in place anyone who wants to can approach the vendor or find out what the vendor sells/ charges etc without the vendor approaching or posting anyone

This message was edited Nov 14, 2008 9:37 AM

Terry, It's been suggested here that all vendors who want to supply a coop should become a paid subscribing member. Given that Paying Plant Scout advertisers get a free membership, wouldn't that solve the problem of not being fair to the advertisers?

Terry just to clarify:

This isn't a rule - is it? My understanding is that a vendor is someone who has a plant related business-- So for example someone who sells jewelry, fabric, health and beauty, electronics would not be considered a vendor - not sure about food -a lot of food comes from plants.

Please clarify this for us - in my current understanding I am not a vendor - if being a vendor includes selling absolutely anything - then I would not qualify to be a host

Terry, to solve the shilling problem and also help paid advertisers reap benefits for # spent, wouldn't my idea of inviting all vendors to supply the coop right on the interest thread work?

Kittylover, if you sell items that have no relationship to plants, seeds, bulbs, gardening supplies or other garden-related items, then you are not lumped into vendor status.

Thank you Terry

Yes, I'd like a list of members who sell things - plants or otherwise. I'd be happy to support them.

OK, Terry, now I get it. The rule against vendors hosting coops in there to serve 2 purposes.

1) Prevent using DG as a venue for self promotion

2) Insure that coop merchandise is sold to home gardeners and not to vendors as a source for cheap items to resell and profit.

Went out this morning checkign things out and this thought crossed my mind.

It not hard to figure out who Dg member vendor and who is not. Some Dg member vendors now just buy a regular classified ad.

Terry....
Would it maybe easier and doable for member vendors to purchase a classified ad, but put the ad up in the form of somethign like this.

I am Dg member vendor, and this is a prebooking sales for this date, for this type product. The product is this much and these are the refund policies.

If buyer quota is not met, or a problem arises with product, which happens when growing live things especially, than advertizer reserves the right to cancel sale, refund all monies, and will try again if and when there is more of an interest.

That way it gives member vendors a chance to maybe compete, they only out five bucks if there not enough interest, the refund and echange polices are in place, cuz admid has to approve all ads first and can double check the ads to make sure that buyers have some sort of protection, it would be in writing, totoaly at risk, some protection, complete satisfaction.

Then advertizer would just have dmails of sales to them and if problem arose, can work like now behind the scenes, or if crop failure cuz somethign you have to start growing many months in advance, then a group blast dmail could go to all buyers of refunds.

Moves member vendors to classified, and gives regular coop buyers a chance to support member vendors and maybe a few less problems with th enon vendors who have no quareneetes and giv ebuyer s a bit more protection with havign things dropped shipped, and less coops open for those folks that want to host and participate in those type of things.

Only thing would liek to see, and think this is stil a problem for Dave, he has the MareketPlace on the top bars for an easy click, as it should be, those folks ar epaying in some cases alot mor ethna a classified ad would cost them. They payign fees.

But maybe he could fid a way to have a button for classifieds, or if that not possible then maybe in the Big cimmunity forums list and on folks add this forum to my favorites list have the words Classified in Bold and maybe some of his hot pink coloring. LOL

The only "co-ops" I have ever "joined" except on DG have had a fee to "join", be it a cash payment or by actual having to show up to work a set amount of hours, as with our Grocery coop in Vt.

I totally agree that the coops on DG are looked upon by SOME as a casual encounter that is like a play group which creates an atmosphere of them thinking nothing of canceling their "pretend" orders and causing problems to the host and to the viability of the coop.

People need to know that "coop" is a "commercial" venture. Real money, real time, and real problems unless the rules are read, followed and accepted by all.

I think Terry has stated this problem extremely well.

So I am thinking that to join a coop and to clearly define to a participant that this as a group business venture that we should all (except the host) have to pay a "coop" fee that would be non-refundable under any circumstance in the amount. of .50 cent to a 1.00 to the host that would be used to:

1. reimburse the host for the initial classified advertisement
2. extra after the classified cost would be used for other expenses for materials needed for packing
3. any amount left over after expenses are covered would be donated to the Angel fund

The collection of such a "coop" fee could be a part of the order payment. I would love to have a way to have to prepay it to even list an order. But I can't figure out how that could be done. I have never been a host so much eludes me. If it was a local "coop" we just pay when we join for a year. I would be happy to prepay into a coop fund to be doled out by a coop appointed treasurer, but that would be a financial hardship on some.

I do like the idea of having a "closed coop chat forum" for members of a particular coop. By having a "fee" to join, this becomes the other bonus, besides discounted plants, a dedicated chat forum.

Let's face it that what we have now are not really a "Co-op" because for most of us, we did nothing to facilitate the "Co-op" except get cheap plants or items.

Then some of us have actually had the nerve to complain to the DG administration about something they had nothing to do with other then being an electronic conduit. I never called and yelled a Ma Bell when my mail order from Sears was not up to par. No one else has either.

We always seem to expect professional results from mostly kind hearted, overworked already, cyberspace DG pals to do all the negotiation, organization, packing and sleapping to save us, totally random cyberpals, big bucks. I can list far more direct orders from Retailers that were bigger nightmares than any of the "coops" that I have had the privilege of "using".

I have a thought about what is called a "street vendor" or people who set up a business to circumvent paying what a brick and mortar store has to pay, buy having a temporary cart or non tax paying business pop up then disappear. In Nantucket all retail merchants had to pay a "Street Vendor Fee" unless we showed a copy to a town official who would randomly check with all new businesses proof of payment of this tax. When you paid town taxes it was reimbursed. This prevented little pop up summer ventures to avoid paying for town services. This is kind of like DG members popping up as a secret part time vendors, but not paying for advertising or for hosting a coop for their own business without the participants knowledge.

DG could have us all, upon joining sign a contract that if we choose to self promote a business against the rules in any forum besides the classifieds that we would be charged the classified fee and not permitted to post until it was paid. This would make us aware that self promotion needs to be explicitly located in the retail area only on DG and done in the open.

I would like the classifieds to be sectioned off into a Watchdog Vendor sales, a DG Group Buys, and DG members sales and a section for Services and Classes etc. I would go to them all for different reasons. Watchdog for sales from favorite vendors that were direct ships. To group buys for the camaraderie and savings from vendors that I don't normally use. To members to support them and to be a noisy Parker to see who is up to what. And to the other, for other.

To encourage the use of classifieds, I would love it have its own box next to "Products & Sources" box and to be called "Classifieds & Sales" or something that implies good deals, as well as services or classes or whatever. Just like any classifieds, I would read all parts of it if it were more visible. I finally made it a favorite recently. People would not violate any rules if they mentioned in a forum that they had something listed. It would encourage lister's if it were more visited, thus IMHOP the classifieds needs more visibility and promotion to become another great tool for DG members.

Lastly, I don't ever want the sales and self promotion of ANYTHING by a poster to be allowed to be posted anywhere other than in the paid classifieds or in the Marketplace. I didn't join Davesgarden to get the hard sell about anything or even a gentle nudge from a cyberpal. I am happy to know about and possible support any one's business, but I want it's self promotion to always be removed from the forums except that a poster can mention on a thread that something that is for sale by a poster can be viewed in the classifieds or marketplace. I am happy to have a picture posted with it, but not any particulars. I am afraid all this chatter may want get people thinking that DG members are ripe for casual solicitation for their wares. Oh, by the way, I have a nice bridge for sale that I will be listing in the classifieds soon.

Too long, sorry. Patti

Patti, lots of good ideas there, but I did spot one problem...

"DG could have us all, upon joining sign a contract that if we choose to self promote a business against the rules in any forum besides the classifieds that we would be charged the classified fee and not permitted to post until it was paid."

That seems too complicated to me (not keeping it simple), plus there are probably vendors who would be delighted to pay the $5 fine in order to post about their products in strategic places (like in a thread entitled "does anybody know about good iris sales going on now?")

I totally agree that the coops on DG are looked upon by SOME as a casual encounter that is like a play group which creates an atmosphere of them thinking nothing of canceling their "pretend" orders and causing problems to the host and to the viability of the coop.

People need to know that "coop" is a "commercial" venture. Real money, real time, and real problems unless the rules are read, followed and accepted by all.Let's face it that what we have now are not really a "Co-op" because for most of us, we did nothing to facilitate the "Co-op" except get cheap plants or items.

Then some of us have actually had the nerve to complain to the DG administration about something they had nothing to do with other then being an electronic conduit. I never called and yelled a Ma Bell when my mail order from Sears was not up to par. No one else has either.


Very well said Patti. Thanks for the chuckle this morning. : ) That exactly what some folks think of it and then they complain when their play dates don't go like they want. Not to long at all, we all have to put it out there so we can agree and tweak and downfall all ideas. Please keep throwing them ideas out there.

Somehow some way I know the magic solution or as close to it as possible will come about.

Only problem I see with charging folks a coop fee is you gonna have a whole bunch of folks that are too blind to see th epoint you just made I bolded. Then they gonan start a bunch of flaming and angry thread sgain about I pay a membership fee an dit shoudl be included.

I have watched hostess fees climb from 10 and 25 cent a person to workign it way up to 3.00 a person now. take 100 people and you get a huge amount.

Same thign would happen if the hostess charged a coop fee per member, some coops can have gettig upward over 200 folks. Somewhere at point hosts will pay a five bucks ad fee and keep th eother 95 bucks in their pocket and we'll have amad rush of host tryign to do this and have possible some really unscruppable vendors come in.

Critterologist, You are right. Problem.

But perhaps having admin remove the post upon it's discovery or from notification from a concerned member about the solicitous advertisement, would do the trick, as well as giving them the option to be moved to the Classifieds and paid for by the poster. The offending poster then would be given a warning that any further infringement would result in expolistion from DG. I doubt the ad would last 5 min if posted, as people would be all over it "Like a Hobo on a Ham Sandwich" and report it.

Oh by the way, it is a nice iron bridge of historical importance. Patti

starlight1153, Thanks, Yes the coop fee problem could be a problem.

I could see the fee based on the number involved, but people need to have something financial as well as emotional at stake to understand that coops are a whole lot of work for the host and helpers.

If a large number joined, a part of the amount could be refunded such as in " BBrookrd, Look for the 30 cents in your box of Glads"

Or it could be used as a part of the final payment if collected ahead such as "BBrookrd, you owe 40.00 for glad, +shipping to host of 1.20 + shipping to you 4.40 + coop cost .40 minus a refund for - .30 cent of coop fee of 1.00 that was not used thus you owe 45.70 now due.

Oh, did I tell you my bridge for sale was beautiful at night. Patti

Now I really laughing. Your cute Patti! : )

You right they would be for sure. But then Dave would have oodles of dmail sayign hey in this forum is oen of thes ethreds and you gonna have some folks that aren't goign to stop and tak ethe time to see who it is just complain.

But then again, maybe if Dave could suffer the first bout sof the dmails maybe then folks would get the idea, and quit posting.

Only thign is, like when I see a classfied, I knwo this is a good member vendor with good product , feedback and product as I have bought form their store or a coop and with my checkign the classified and see it, and I go to that products forum and post a link. It don't mean I ws in anyway contacte d by the vendor or that they even know I doign it, but just know that before folsk go buyign someplace else, they got a good seller that paying member of Dg with some product that woudl be happy with.

Terry & members, we now have almost 50 suggestions in the summary for items designed to improve the coops, handle & prevent the complaints as well as to solve the vendor problem. Could everyone review them for accuracy and completeness. At this point it might be wise to start ruling out objectionable or totally unworkable ones.

stormyla, great idea. But on I go as I was about to cross post with you.

DG has gotten so big, Dave may need to have a directory like they have on eBay to funnel the d-mail to the correct place. This type of list mostly helps the poster to clearly think about why they are writing the d-mail and really think if the d-mail to administration is really necessary. Dave does not need "Random Rants". I would suggest it be limited to a certain number of characters for the initial posting to prevent people like me from babbling on and on and on. Follow ups could be limitless. Again this just helps the writer to be sicinct and on topic.

"Is this about a questionable topic or behavior in a forum?"
"Is this about a questionable topic or behavior in a D-Mail?"
"Is this about a Coop?" Before sending please read http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2116456
"Is this about anything else?"
"Or is this just a Random Rant or Malicious Gossip?"

I have written administration several times about a topic that I thought needed moving to another forum and about a questionable solicitous posting. They have always responded very quickly and with sensitivity. They likewise sent me gentle warning about an illegal use of a picture in my journal that was brought, rightly, to their attention by the owner of the picture. I quickly corrected my error and sent an apology to the owner. We had some nice correspondence.

I think the vendors in the classifieds are more likely going to be better than some. But, again, we must all know and accept that things happen that may lead to a bad experience. This is not Dave's fault ever. But the perception that advertisements that appear in the Classifieds or Marketplace by a host of a Coop or from an individual member of DG or from a KNOWN vendor that is highly respected in DG "Watchdog" feedback is still always subject to vicissitudes of life.

Oh did I tell you that my bridge is a real antique, shipping not included. Patti

edited for better English and spelling (love my spell ck)

This message was edited Nov 14, 2008 2:14 PM