Help-anyone interested in a Winter sowing Database at Dave's

I have received a private message from Trudi that has completely changed my opinion of the potential of involving her in this project.

I have no interest in working alongside Trudi, despite the warm overtures I made toward her earlier in this thread.

Let's proceed but I don't want her or her website involved in any way, shape or form.

And I want to make it clear that, as with everything on this site, we need to make sure that the information that all of you contribute to the upcoming database must not be copied from anywhere. That's always been our standard and we need to keep in mind always, lest some enemy find reason to accuse us.

Dave

I'm willing. Sorry Trudi wasn't particularly receptive. I guess she has a proprietary interest in winter sowing. But a winter sowing database can be set up here by those of us who've done it. My records are meager, but I'll be happy to share with Dave's Garden. I'd rather have a good database here anyway. The database Trudi has isn't the way I'd set it up. But that's just me.

Does this mean you're going to make it possible for us to do this???

Thank goodness Dave's is for Gardeners by Gardeners, as it seems others are for Gain through Gardeners.

We have more than enough knowledgeable and friendly people here who have a keen interest in this. I for one, will be trying this for the first time. I love propagation, hence the name, and keep detailed records of everything I have achieved or failed. This is not burdensome, it is fascinating to me. It might not be for everyone single member, but enough to make it a fruitful database.

Wow, Robbi! I can't believe that you stirred up so many replies today. I think you obviously struck a note with all of us. Personally, I have always felt that the propagation information on PF needed to include more about the specifics on growing from seed. It would probably need to be a separate database but it would be nice if it linked directly from PF to the "Propagation File" for each specific plant if that info is available. Yes, this sounds like a lot of work but I agree with the person who suggested we might be able to add something like the zip code info on PF. Like - this plant has grown from WS (or fall planting or whatever) in these areas. Then we could all add our general info even if we didn't keep specific data. This will be my first time for winter sowing but I know I will not be able to keep extensive records. (I'll be lucky to have time to get them planted & labeled.)

Also - I'm glad you included the link to the Winter Sown data base. I didn't know that existed. Until we get this one up & running it at least gives me an idea of what to try. It makes me sad that this project seems to have generated some negative reactions. (:-(

Pam

I am in--for better or worse. I think both ideas make sense. A general propagation database & a winter sowing database. I am sure it could be set up to sort by sowing times/temperatures so that everything could be included. Because I winter sow and sow year round via heatcable and/or outdoors it would be nice to reference a particular plant and find out what it likes. Because I also grow natives and unusual plants about which there is little info or none, it would be awesome to go to one place instead of spending hours trolling thru websites and trying every possible combination of terms on a search engine. That being said I have accumulated lots of info during my journey into gardening, that i would be delighted to share. I am certain that there is enough experience here at DG to do a bang up job without copying from other websites. As for being burdensome--I'm with pupil, only the ones who want to keep records will, no one else is obligated, but all are welcome to benefit.

now robbi, wheres the data? i got my seeds out and ready! LOL

I would use a DG seed database. It would make Daves Garden a one stop gardening information center for sure.

I love the idea....all of them! I too have some pretty good notes from last year that I'd be tickled to share. Of course the further we got into the season the busier I became, and the busier I became the more sparse the notes. LOL! But what I've got is open to all.

I think this is an excellent idea. I've been keeping records in an access database, so any info I can share...
I do agree with some that this should be a propagation database as not everything can be wintersown. As for the wintersowers, information that would be helpful are date sown/date germinated. Results vary greatly from Zone to Zone and when it was sown. I like the idea of a propagation database, because if the seed didn't germinate well with wintersowing then I would like to know what other options I have. A link with the plant files is a fantastic idea as you can also see how to handle the plant after germination and see the results. Knowing when and how to harvest the seed is also important. Perhaps info on what the seed or seed pod looks like would also be very helpful. I do realize that some already have added this info to alot of the plantfile entries. A link with watchdog will also give you direction on where to obtain the seed, or the plant where you can collect the seed at a later date.

Morning all-I just woke up and WOW!!! Early risers!!

First I wanted to say how sad (but not surprised) I am about the response from the other side. I have run into this negativity many times over there which is a little shocking because as far as I am concerned, there are way to many wonderful gardeners out there to be doing this "thats mine, and you can't be here" stuff. As for winter sowing many of our ancestors have been doing this for years-they just didn't use plastic milk jugs-they used coffee cans (my grandmother did) or mason jars, so no one hold ownership to winter sowing. It will be interesting to see how many times we'll be accused of "copying" their info just because we have the same Genus and species listed. This all just saddens me a bit.

OK, enough of that it sounds like designing this is going to be a big job for Dave :o) I think all of these ideas are great and as soon as any site is up and running I will be adding all my info. My grandmother didn't have details in her notebooks, she just wrote down what seeds worked for her and what didn't, she did have Genus and species written down sometimes-but not very often...as she said she had a farm to run-LOL. I was told that the reason she planted her flowers and favorite veggies this way (anything that wasn't planted in the big garden) was because the "critters" always seemed to dig up what she planted in the fall or early spring but this way, when they were planted she could actually keep an eye on them, Grandma wouldn't hurt a "critter" for anything-she worked around them. I even found a family of duckling living in here oven early one spring because their mother had died-we didn't use that oven for some time-LOL

Anyway, I really appreciate all the comments as I also believe that this would be a wonder asset to Dave's. When this does get set up, it will save me tons of time because I won't have to be looking up seeds, looking for it in my books, and writing everything down about its germination in a file. It will all be at my fingertips! Yiiipppeeee.
This is going to be so much fun...off to pot up more seeds! Anyone want to come join me in my negative 15 degree weather (thats the windchill) LOL :o)
I LOVE IT!!! Brrrrr!!!
Robbi

While reading Anita's post I thought about one other thing...the data will need to be able to updated easily because what may not have worked for me in winter sowing-or germinating, may have worked for the man down the road from me because his seeds were fresher, or he didn't forget to water like I did because of my 2 kids and 3 cats and 3 jobs-LOL
So something that is pliable to work with.
Just a thought :o)

I'll be ecstatically happy to see all of this the information here at Dave's, and I'll be putting in tons of my own data that I have noted over the years once the database is available to us.

I hope no one minds if I just add a comment here about basing "where it grows" information purely on either zip codes or zones. If it is limited to zip codes you will exclude all non-U.S. information, just like PlantFiles does now. Using the zone would be better, but still has its problems in an international database. My zone 5 in southwestern Ontario, Canada will have different characteristics from say a high desert zone 5 or Michigan's zone 5 or an eastern coastal zone 5, and what works for me may fail miserably for some of these others. Maybe we could have a field to indicate region (northern Michigan, U.S.A., southern Ontario, Canada, southern France, etc.) or type of environment (high desert, coastal plain, carolinian, prairie, etc.), even if it's just free format text for now it would be a bonus. Honestly though, I'll love it no matter what method is used :-)

Maybe someone else here has a better idea to simplify this?

I would definitely like to have seed starting details listed in PF. It's the one thing I've felt was missing. I would also be in favor of a winter sowing database linked to, but not necessarily part of PF.

I agree that being able to "browse" a winter sowing database would be very helpful. If linking the individual WS database entry to the entry in PF is feasible -- and I don't know what it would take to do this -- that would be good, too. If linking to the PF is not feasible, then I would still rather have a browsible WS database and if need be look seed starting details up in PF rather than have the WS info incorporated into each PF entry.

Also, let's not forget to include veggies and herbs in this. LOL.

Wow, this thread has really taken on a new life since last night.
No one asked for it, but I'm in the mood to share my two cents.
*grin*

While I'm not going to speak negatively about anyone, I
have to say, recording ideas on the internet may be new,
but wintersowing was not recently invented, nor a light bulb
invention by one person. We're not asking anyone for
the recipes for the eleven secret herbs and spices.

It may not necessarily have had a specific name, but
wintersowing has been going on for umpteen years.

As an example, I may have talked about putting glass in
rock tumblers all over the internet, or even written a book
about it, but I sure as heck didn't 'invent' the idea nor do
I own the facts. It doesn't matter to me how it travels from there.
If it is a good idea worth sharing, I'll do so.

Robbi's idea is a good one. She's merely asking if the information
many of us know can be collected and shared, Dave has agreed and now moves
forward to create it. I don't see the problem, nor do I want to know
details from those who object, unless as already mentioned, the
information is copied and pasted, which is, of course, not appropriate.

Those of us who have wintersown should be quite capable of
coming up with the how-to on our own. And this is not said to
shun or discredit any other site. We all live in one big world, we
can all get along just fine. For me, there is no 'them and us'.

Brownies for all!

mmm nummy brownies :o)
Thanks WUVIE (and where is my rag rug-LOL)

Another two cents worth..........I think the idea is brilliant. Since joining, I have been amazed at the realm of info, suggestions, and tales of success/failures. Things that you experts may have known and then forgotten is like gold to me as a newbie. The one thing I soon discovered DG's is infamous for is sharing. I need all the help and info I can get, in order to be where you are..........and it only makes sense to have it all in one place! Saves time, money and stress! Kudos to you!

Sigh. Are we lurching into another soap opera moment? I have no clue about the relationship between DG and GW and between dave and Trudi, bad or otherwise. I like it here. I first liked it because I could understand the chronology of the threads. I've stayed for that and a host of other reasons (we're friendly, generous, funny, smart, and some of us are even educated about plants.) The cute word "wintersown" might be Trudi's or GW's property; the concept clearly is not. That much emerges just from reading these posts, about people's parents and grand parents who may have learned the trick of planting in containers in the winter from their parents or grandparents.

Winter sowing gave me something that planting my grandmother's dried-up old pickling "dill seed" during my 2 week vacations convinced me I could never have - the ability to grow plants from seed. I kept horrible records this - my first - year, and had a running thread called "Can anyone ID this seedling for me??" Permanent marker isn't permanent. I forgot to save the spreadsheet I made myself (doh!) and so YES! whatever was available here, I would probably use.

xxxxx, Carrie

I think a plan here is that we start fairly small, making a very basic database, and then adding to it as ideas start to flow.

As near as I can tell, we're looking for a way for members to report their success with propagating plants by seed using over-wintering stratification. We can begin with that, and expand out to cover other kinds of propagation later.

The report system would look like:

1) What plant is this?
2) Where did the seeds come from? (Self saved, trade)
3) When did you sow the seeds?
4) How many seeds did you sow?
5) When did they germinate?
6) How many germinated?
7) What is the location (zipcode, usda zone, lat/lon, etc) of the experiment?

Does this sound like a plan for starters?

dave

Sounds simple enough to me being a newbie! :)

Sounds wonderful!! Thanks so very much!!

I want to hook it into PlantFiles for a few reasons:

1) We won't have to duplicate efforts. We already have genus,species,cultivar info in PlantFiles as well as all the details (hardiness, bloom color, height, so forth).

2) It will make the propagation database rock-solid. No worrying about mis-spelling a plant.

3) It'll make browsing much easier.

4) It can later be extended and even incorporated directly into PlantFiles if we chose to do so.

So adding an entry to the propagation database would involve going first to the plant's entry in PlantFiles and clicking a link that said something like: "Create a Winter Sowing entry with this plant" and off you go.

dave

LOVE IT, LOVE IT, LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!

I've been reading this thread, it's an awesome idea.

I like it being tied in to Plant Files as well. It will be nice to look up a plant and get ALL the information about it in one place. I think you also should include a definition of Winter Sowing Dave, or you are going to, sure as shootin, have people including things they have sown indoors, just because they did it in the winter :)))

How would I search by zone? And by sun/shade?

By hooking into PlantFiles, we would be able to have those kinds of browsing options.

Sounds great Dave. This is going to be a wonderful resource for all of us.

Then I'm all for it!

This is wonderful. Thanks Robbi, you are a genius, and thanks Dave. It takes one person coming up with the idea, like Robbi, to create an invaluable resource that becomes a learning source, such as PlantFiles. Kudos and can't wait to see this in action!!

Wow! another great idea that has gotten picked up and in no time at all will be reality at DG. this just gets better and better. I've been frustrated with the 'other' information out there because it is spotty, and either incomplete or duplicative. Certainly better than nothing. But with this hook to PF, awesome!

I think Dave's plan to have the propagation data as an extension of plant files is super. If you have plans to wintersow, (or propagate) you know what you have to start with! Ergo, it is easy to look up in plant files, then go to the new data base for instructions or help in deciding how to proceed. As Dave said, most of the data on a plant is already in place, so additional info regarding any kind of propagation could just be a subset of that info. That subset could contain any thing that the general population deems worth while and Dave deems do-able. Gene

Willthis work so that I can enter a search for "vegetables suitable for winter sowing in zone 9" and it would give me a list of those plants that have been submitted as suitable.

We will certainly be able to do that, zanymuse. It's really up to ya'll how you want it to work. Once we get started building it, you can suggest tools to get access to the data.

dave

That will be great for those of us that only know we want to plant winter "somethings" but don't have a clue as to what is possible at first.

Will this data base be exclusively for seeds sown in winter or will it be a propagation data base including but not limited to seeds sown in winter?

Thanks Robbi and Dave!!
I'd also like a regular propagation database Equilibrium. After talking to Robbi, I found out that most of the annuals I want to grow will have to be sown indoors to have blooming size plants before late July.

Well I'm glad all has been decided because i think it's a great idea too!-Kath

I would be happy to contribute my limited winter sowing information to the database. That said... I sincerely hope we don't stoop to inserting false data to catch potential thieves! Yes, I lurked a bit at that other site...

I anticipate that we at DG will come up with a database with a "professional" polish to it. This means correctly identifying the plants in the first place. I visited the Wintersown site only to find callas (Zantedeschia) as well as Agapanthus identified as Liliums. I also noticed that the lack of information outweighed the useful information. For example, most of the entries for "Month sown" were blank and many of the entries for "Month Germinated" were Y or N. We as a group need to be more specific (perhaps scientific) in our collection of data.

A few more thoughts... Could there be a space for comments? I am thinking that an additional description of growing conditions would be useful (eg snowcover? cold and dry? rained all winter? etc). Also, how were the seeds stored prior to sowing? This could also be a comment. There are so many things that can affect the viability of seeds!

For fine seeds, having a before and after count is difficult. This is where the Y or N (was it successful?) would be more appropriate.

Some seeds are known to be not appropriate for winter sowing. Could there be a way to convey this information? Maybe just a comment without entering the data for something doomed to fail in the first place?

Just my 2 cents worth for now...

I just recieved 2 letters from Trudi, I am a bit taken aback as she keeps referring to that other info as GW info for GW members-which I am one, I have a sister that input info to that site and now am being told I am a thief for using it...it just rubs me wrong.
I was told that I started a lot of trouble with this and that I should have spoken to them FIRST. Lets just say I responded and stood up for myself with dignity.
If I didn't feel ostrisized before being at GW, I sure won't be going back any time soon.
I know many people here also go to GW...have the lines really been drawn? This is just nuts-all over an age old tradition that I am sure generations before myself, or Trudi for that matter, have done. Sowing seeds in the winter is not something that is hers or theirs...and it angers me that all this has come about because I was trying to be considerate by asking her to join us, I didn't do it because I was obligated, I was being kind....hmmmmmm, go figure.

Robbi, just remember that you are doing a wonderful thing for all of us here at Dave's, and I would not be surprised if any from over there come and visit and take away information for themselves that they are NOT getting there. I think you came up with a wonderful idea that will help us newbies and "oldies" (used lightly! LOL) alike, and I know it will be greatly appreciated! Now get back to Mr. Dickens! ((((HUGS))))

Robbi, some people are not in this world for helping, but hindering. It sounds like you may have run into one. If sowing seeds in the winter (not dare use the other word) was exclusive, then it seems as if only one person would have a lovely garden. The gift of sharing and caring is not granted to everyone. Their selfish ways keep them from seeing the good which could come out of it.

You are right, there was no obligation, as their are no exclusive rights on MY seeds and how I PLAN to use them. I am sorry this has caused you so much trouble over something which people should be happy to share. Ignore her and anything to do with her. Let her have all the anger and we will go about making a fantastic database merrily. You are not a thief, but a good person who is trying to help novices like me become better gardeners. No matter what you do, you can never please everyone and some you can't please at all. I googled this "technique" and found 11,000+ other sites about it.

Hmmm.....wonder if the fear that ours will outgrow hers could be the reason for all the anger. I can't fathom what else it could be.