Bird Forum

I would be interested in a bird watching forum.

Laura

I think we have an internet troll here. A troll is interested in being inflammatory and being right. One of the signs is lengthy posts and inappropriate anger toward any who dare to dissagree. The only reccomended action is to ignore said troll until the moderator asks it to leave. If you do a google search on internet trolls you can find more info and advice. Unfortunately they thrive in forums.

Wow.. I didn't know bird watching could be such a controversial and inflammatory topic. I can see the administrator's hesitation in adding this forum.... maybe just a bird identification forum? The bug files seems to be a success.

Me either, almost sorry I brought up the idea.

Stelco, I understand the intensity of your convictions and I applaud your passion to help birds. I understand the dedication and sacrifice involved in defending and protecting the object(s) of one's love, too. We all make choices based upon many factors; e.g, observations, knowledge, belief systems, unique life experiences, available resources--many of which are subject to one's perceptions and interpretations as well.

Almost every waking moment of twenty years of my life was spent helping wild birds; on a daily basis I met with the results of just about everything amiss in our world that negatively impacts wild birds and natural ecosystems. I could write volumes--but quite honestly, I couldn't stand to relive it. I'm not moved by your attempt to stir me on to [whatever it is you want me to think or feel]. As far as wild birds in pain, I lived in a war zone. The suffering and death you've observed must've hit you pretty hard. It seems you have empathy--and that's a good thing. What I did with/for birds was borne out of empathy and a deep connection, too.

What happens in nature is often disturbing and unsettling. But it does not evoke feelings of indignation in me. I will not ascribe human traits and emotions to birds--especially negative ones, e.g., "bad", "mean", "vicious", "killer", "disease-ridden", "deserving of... ". What upsets me is man's lack of regard for the natural world and its inhabitants--and how life and nature are valued in terms of dollars.

You will do whatever it is that you feel you need to do in your life, your website and on your property, but please, please try to understand that you can't save the world. And, that regardless of how "right" or "wrong" our various opinions are, the majority of people interested in having a bird forum do not want to read about intentional harm done to birds by humans.

edited to add:
For a very long time, the suffering and death of wild birds was a part of my daily life, and the emotional overload took a toll. It was a rare occurence when a bird's predicament was not caused directly or indirectly by man. For myself, I don't want to encounter more suffering of birds at the hand of man. If a DG 'Birdwatchers Forum' were to include such, I'd just not go to the forum. It would nag at me, though--'cause I did pick up a few tidbits of knowledge in all those years. ;-)

This message was edited Dec 30, 2006 12:56 AM

Magpied, you're an excellent writer. Thanks.

Good Morning Everyone! I still would like a Birdwatchers Forum.

palmbob, I think an ID Forum would be a bit confusing only because some of the photos are not going to be close enough or show the whole bird or from enough angles to be a positive ID.

Dave, could we have a "Touchy Topic" forum where you could banish visceral and controversial conversations to be opened only by the daring and the passionate? Patti

magpied has said it all perfectly. I don't think I can expand on that anymore to try to persuade or dissuade anyone. Personal agendas and views often die hard, sometimes it's just a matter of having experienced life a lttle more and realising just what it's all about. It is what it is.

I must add that Stelco must think I am awfully stupid by his statements. e.g.

"No wallaby1, you are mistaken. Nature did not introduce the Ruddy Duck to the UK. Man did, just as man introduced HOSP and EUST to the U.S. Natural selection is now eliminating another native species of Duck in the UK because of man’s mistake."

Oh if it weren't for man wouldn't it all be different. But we like our over-rated place of importance on this planet, and I guess we have as much right to our place as any other creature. It's when we start to think we can play God and place ourselves above all creatures the problems arise, and man has certainly meddled to the detriment of other species in the past.

Just let it be, let some of us enjoy what there is. Stelco, have you thought of writing a book, then whoever should wish to read your views can do that in their own time.

Dave,

Maybe be a good way to prove commitment, thx for that one stella!
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You nailed it very well lilyfantn, funny how some stend to imitate the very things they hate. Beautifully said.

I think the best things in his world were often wrought with a great passion and a heap of controversy. We still reap the benifits of those who persevered, and have passed on now unable to cheer us on. Would rather avoid the trouble myself personally many times, at what cost though? Are we so easily spooked by opposition? I surely hope not! :-S. Being right isn't all that.. Knowing what we believe enough not to be threated by another persons opinion is the one of greatest freedom we have now.
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Hi palmbob,
Like pelletory, I think it would be confussing.. (An ID forum for birds is another great idea though...) Most of us Birders already know what we have, or know how to look them up first. Thats what my son does, even when I tell him the name of a bird...He will promptly grab one of his 2 guides and read up on it. I only ask for ID when both Ben and aren't positively sure. The birders here at DG are some of the best IDers I have ever come across. I never feel stupid for asking.
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Magpied~ We would sure miss you in such a forum. Our years together can really add up. I do share many of your sentiments completely! When does the killing stop? With what creature? Killing is the oldest crime of all, insanity ensues when we try to stop it by more killing. It never solves the problems. I appreciate your responses a great deal! ty :>

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betterbloom~ Looks like a bold idea to me still, ty for posting your request too. I began responding to this one first because of a dmail I received, and by the time I saw yours it had been redirected. Glad you also thought of it too! Good ideas come in twos, as this one did.

Still in favor of a Birdwatching forum, or at least a "Sticky", say "aye!"

Aye!
Deb Magnes

AYE!

AYE! 3

AYE!!!!

I think the point that is being missed is that both sides of this issue can't find any common ground - those opposed don't want to hear one word about ways to deal with non-native birds taking over nestboxes. Those who believe in removing the nonnatives are equally adamant in being allowed to speak out.

This makes it a little different from the brug group where we could say that both sides had a gag order about specific topics that neither side could discuss. In the case here, one side wants the other one effectively barred from discussing their position on an integral subject.

Both sides think they're right and the other side is ignorant and/or malicious - it seems there's no budging from those polar positions.

Just for the record: I have bluebird boxes. Before I erected them, I sat through an excellent lecture from a noted bluebird author and authority on how to properly build them and where to place them to attract bluebirds to our large back yard. That discussion included lessons on how to make sure predators such as other birds, cats and snakes can't get in the boxes, and an overview of watching for non-natives taking over the nests, and...yes - ways to dispatch the non-natives if necessary.

I've never had to kill any sparrows. We watch my nest boxes and keep them cleared of any other birds nestings, which were minimal after the first year. We've watched numerous families of bluebirds raised in our nestboxes. If the problem with other birds was an issue, I'd have to decide what to do about it, but I would have to do something. It wouldn't be fair to keep the boxes if they served only to lure bluebirds to their death.

That doesn't make me for or against either side of this issue - I just see both sides of the problem and to be honest, I sympathize with both sides.

I'm afraid that insisting this topic can't be mentioned is impractical, and would fail to address the legitimate questions that will arise from time to time.

But how the matter is handled by those who would frequent this forum is at the crux of our decision, and so far, I'm not seeing much out of either side that makes me think they could handle it in a civil manner.

If there is a rule that this is not to be talked about then where is there a problem?
I belong to a Bird Forum on another website and although I'm sure that there are some that feel the same way that Stelco does it is not brought out in the open forum. I'm sure there are private e mails about it but out of RESPECT for fellow members its not ever dicussed in the forum.

I'm really confused why it would be allowed for 1 member to ruin it for the majority.

Pelle

On other websites I have seen an "Ignore this poster" option. That might be an option.

I for one, would love to see a forum for the discussion of backyard birding. I would be very happy to abide by the "No Politics" rule that is already in place here, for that is what this debate seems to be deteriorating into.

Mark my vote "AYE"!

mg

edited for speeling

This message was edited Dec 30, 2006 8:34 AM

AYE!!

I vote a big AYE too.

Terry, I hope my comments about internet trolls (I didn't make up the term - its now in wikipedia lol) haven't caused you to hesitate trying out the bird watchers forum. When I saw the verbal bullying going on I felt very compelled to point out this syndrome that I didn't know existed until it happened on another forum. Since then I've seen it happen two more times. But if pointing this out in any way jeapordizes the forum then I am heartily sorry! Count me in as a normally upbeat and enthusiastic poster.

Susan

I think everyone's opinion is to be respected, but a volatile subject should be moved to another place politely. If a question is posed that elicits a response from someone with strong opinions like Stelco and he wants his side to be heard, he could simply post a reply that says something like. " I would like you to read my thoughts about HOSP in a thread I am running in ....." I don't think ignoring is educational or polite, but using, "Ignore this poster", certainly as last resort, for a continuously disrespectful poster would be fine. Or silence. Patti

Bbriikrd - if both sides could be nice and polite they could both live on the same forum with no problem. They have both shown they cannot be polite to each other...

Surely people of goodwill and intelligence can disagree in a civil manner...everyone has a different point of view.

I vote AYE!

IMHO, if there is a birdwatching forum, there should also be a Blue Bird forum where like minded people can discuss what needs to be done about HOSP and EUST and why.

How about a Forum "Threated Species" ? Patti

Dave has already mentioned he wants it clean of HOSP and related problems. Period !

I would mean both sides not talking or sharing about any HOSP - both sides.

Actually, I would venture the opinion that the subject *should* be able to be discussed without sending people into a lather.

But (a very big but here), the position shouldn't be crammed down anyone's throat, either.

And therein lies the problem.

One side wants absolutely no mention of it, a "zero tolerance" policy if you will.

The other side - for whatever reason - becomes instantly abrasive and downright "in your face" when anyone demurs at the thought of dispatching (euthanizing, killing - whatever you prefer to characterize it) a bird, albeit a non-native one that is a predator to our native birds.

Sorry...I'm just callin' it like I see it here. It's a real shame, but as this thread has shown, neither side is willing to back down or give an inch of leeway to the other's position.

Sorry Terry - I misunderstood, but fully understand it better the way you put it. I agree with you - nuf said.

I would love a birding forum. I have gotten into it in a very big way, feeding birds like crazy. I feel like the local crazy woman with her birds. I, too, got very defensive about my bluebirds, but not with HOSP. I had a mockingbird that wouldnt let my blues get to the worm feeder. I posted on other forums, I didnt know what to do. I wanted to totally remove him, get rid of him, maybe even kill him. Another poster with a much calmer head posted that I may not like him there, but he has every right being there, and I should just deal with it the best I could. So going with the "if you cant beat em, join em" mentality, I started feeding the mockingbird on the front porch at 4:00 and the blues and warblers behind the barn at 4:00, and peace has ensued. Not only that, but that mockingbird which I started hating now lands on my arm to get worms. Seems theres a world peace lesson there somewhere. Anyway, I would love a bird forum. I love taking pictures and IDing birds. If a forum member persisted on ignoring the HOSP discussion rule, or gets enough complaints, couldnt they simply be banned from the forum? Im sure many people have problems with HOSP, and it doesnt take a genious to Google information on how to take care of the problem. We dont need a heated discussion on it. Anyway, I vote "aye", too.

Any person is capable of posting his or her thoughts in whichever thread they choose. If not in a "Bird Forum" they are just as capable of posting their thoughts in Wildlife". Since Dave has already said he wants it clean of HOSP and related problems, I would think this would apply to any thread. Sorry for those that don't agree, but....this is Dave's website !

I agree. Dave was the first person to bring that up and that should stay the rule with this forum if thats what he wants.

I don't have any problem with someone who feels they have to do that to Hosps as long as they've exhausted all other non violent methods. It just is not something I could personally do (shoot, I can't even kill bugs,lol).

I'm sure we can find a way to settle this peacefully, there are lots of different options we could chose.

Again, AYE

halo and betterbloom, thanks for your views which I think are helpful.

As far as both sides not being able to give at all goes, let me liken it to smokers and non-smokers.

A smoker will not understand why a non-smoker does not wish to inhale their smoke. Smokers are addicted to smoking and need the fix. A non-smoker cannot stand the smoke because it makes them feel sick and can affect their lungs. Try to tell a smoker this and they become all the more defensive of their habit.

We who do not smoke do not want to see what makes us unhappy, it would also make me feel sick to the point of not wanting to visit a bird forum. The forum would be left to a minority, not what the majority wish it to be.

LOL, Wallaby please don't lump all smokers in one group. I have always been respectful of non smokers.

Sorry, I shouldn't have generalised, I do respect a smokers rights as my other half does smoke. My mistake for the generalisation, i should have said 'some smokers.'

My apologies to smokers!

All along I didn't have much of a problem with people wanting to control what goes on in their own yard, it is so cool with me. The feathers are on their hands, not mine. That is not my problem at all, nor was it ever. Their yard, their rules there.

If I have any problem at all it is with attitudes, kicking up dust and forcing things down someones throat, GAG! Even then I can deal, I am trained that way. I really understand a wide range of subjects and their issues, maybe more than I let on. Problems like this occur all the time in forums and in open chat rooms. I have moderated many of them very succesfully in the last 8 years. It is a basic attitude of respect for who's listening, some have it, and some don't. I have also seen people change for being allowed to express their views without ridicule. As long as they don't attack another personally it is fine with me. 10% what happend and 90% how I react/respond to it. That has been a wonderful challenge, and a test of my own responsibility! Please don't think I am bragging...

Everyone is always right in their own eyes. We remain friends without hostility at all. A kind word will usually turn away wrath. What happens is you gain a brother/sister, if given enough time and patience. I am in for the long haul. What someone did or said to me yesterday can easily be forgotten for the sake of a new day.

Aye!

Aye!

Marilyn

Aye!
Deb(inSC)

Are you suggesting that the existence/presence of house sparrows and starlings in yards not be mentioned? I would never have reason to bring up [not killing or harming birds] unless someone else were to bring up the killing of them. I broached the subject here so it could be hashed out in advance. Dave previously wrote that the [sensitive] topic was to be discussed in Garden Foes. He will correct me if I'm mistaken, but I interpret "keep it clean of HOSP and related problems" to mean [free of the topic of "killing or otherwise harming house sparrows"]--and I am assuming "related problems" includes [killing or otherwise harming starlings]. Yes? No? Not what I said. I don't have any problems with keeping sparrows out of bluebird boxes. House sparrows and bluebird boxes, per se, are not the issue. The harming/killing of any birds is the issue of controversy. Not true. "One side" wants discussions of [people intentionally harming birds] not being in a bird forum.
If by "it", you mean "trapping, poisoning, shooting, killing birds", that is true. I disagree. Since you didn't voice this opinion when Dave declared the topic off limits in the 'Gardening for Wildlife' and 'Wildlife' forums, how is this any different? What "needs to be done" is an *opinion*--and, doesn't stelco already have such a forum on "his" website? Eastern bluebirds and purple martins are neither threatened or endangered. *Wow*... and I didn't even let 'er rip! Hmpffff! ;-) I thought I kept a pretty civil tongue :o

Concerning the heated debate of yore, I wasn't the only one who found it unpalatable. I cannot quantify it--and those threads are long gone--but at least one very active subscribing member left due to the killing mentality. At least one lurker posted that she'd not be back due to same. They didn't leave because of the debate; they left because of the [talk of killing].

You just gave a great post full of the reasons why I think it would be a huge waste of time to have this forum.. they would have to watch your posts just like the others postings. I hate to read anyone with a post like the one above - no matter what is it on.

Mitch, Why would anyone have to watch my posts?
I have a problem with misinformation. Stating that the killing of sparrows and starlings is 'saving our native songbirds' is an example of misinformation.

I agree with Mitch--we also lost of good people that had opposing views to yours, Magpied. They also left because they were made to feel very uncomfortable for just having an opinion opposite to yours on any topic--not just birds.