Bird Forum

pelletory,

What would really be a shame would be censorship and prohibiting education in a new Birdwatching Forum. An open discussion from both sides of a topic educates all readers and allows them to make an informed decision based upon the opinions of several individuals. A D mail will only be read by a single individual.

magpied,

I assume that means that you don't have any links that I asked for.

That one person would be the one that asked the question, the answer could be given without offending anyone else.

This message was edited Dec 29, 2006 5:05 PM

Stelco, I hate to get embroiled in an argument, but you need to understand that many of us are capable of educating ourselves. It is your 'opinion' that people need to be educated on this issue. To many of us who really don't see the need to be selective about what has or has not occured in the space of history we would rather not see this as it can be upsetting, a bird is a bird is a bird. Colour is apartheid whatever the species.

The idea of having a Bird forum is so people can share what birds they have, not what they wish not to have, and I would hope that people such as yourself would respect this. There is no respect in believing that others need to adopt you personal views. Please do not spoil this for others.

Well said!

As you know, Stelco, I am vehemently opposed to information that fosters the hatred of--and harm toward--any species based upon its behavior for survival. If you were absolutely prohibited from killing sparrows and starlings, you would get mighty creative in finding other solutions.

Dave - I really think this type of talk would be all over the forum. Both sides being so unable to be civil and work together on the basics of such a forum. It would just be wise IMHO to stay far far away from this forum. This is just me - it would make too much work for you to have to deal with.

Mitch I disagree completely. Put a few people in charge and if 1 or more people insist upon repeatedly breaking this Hosp/ Starling rule then they would be dealt with by administration. So many people would love to have this forum, why let a few ruin it for everyone?
I don't really think this will be a problem if the rules are put at the top of the page.

This message was edited Dec 29, 2006 5:48 PM

Right on Wallaby, I like your attitude, Thank YOU!

There will, of course, be many educated people who are very proud of what they know (their opinions mostly). Unfortunatly that pride also has a proclevity to bring out the big-baby in them as well, and it can be very untactful and damaging. That has more to do with immaturity than the actual Birding issues, (imho). I have seen it, been attacked by some...and dealt with it quickly without being offended. (I do have 4 children, whom I love dearly.) I can deal happily and move on enjoying myself with more important things. In other words, I have used situations like that to grow myself up and develop more sophisticated people skills..... Can ya tell? ROFLMBO!!

As far as I understand that kind of behavior is discouraged overall in the DG forums, and the problem with HOSP can be dealt with as it would any other kind of unreasonable conduct. That's why I suggested appoint a new committe to support the Forum, as most DG admins already have plenty on their plate already.

Merely set some rules, guidelines and boundaries, and anyone not sticking to them can deal with what they buy in breaking them.

:-SSS

I would greatly appreciate a bird watchers forum. But to those DG's who have issues with invasive species, it would seem logical that they be requested to post their questions in the "foes"forum as suggested by others. I also agree that information about hunting of birds should be posted elsewhere. I have no issues with any birds, I even love to see the hated starlings fly. I have no issues about hunting or about people wanting to eliminate certain species on their property. I know from reading some threads about ponds that many people have issues with herons eating their fish, especially expensive koi. But if this new forum is called "bird watchers" it should be about seeing birds, not blasting and poisoning birds. If a question is asked that clearly belongs in the "foe" forum it would be simple to ask that the question be redirected to that less volatile place. I doubt anyone would dare ask about raising horses for food on the equine forum without being told by the readers to take the question elsewhere. All DG's members need to be sensitive to the purpose of the forums they enter. Free speech, certainly, honesty, yes, rabble rousing, no. Now to another hated bird, there is a new book out which has gotten great reviews about pigeons which I plan on reading soon. It is call, Pigeons: The Fascinating Saga of the World's Most Revered and Reviled Bird by Andrew D. Blechman, Has anyone read it? Patti

Mitch, I disagree. No need for the controversial topic of bird "control" to be in a bird forum at all. There are so *many* bird topics apart from issues regarding nest boxes for bluebirds and martins.

I have no objection to people wishing to dissuade [whatever] from feeders, nestboxes, etc. as long as it involves doing no harm to same. It is just not something that the majority of people want or need to read about in a bird forum. There is ample room for education without its inclusion.

deb, it's not just house sparrows, it's starlings, too. Pigeons. Cowbirds. Crows. Whatever may be considered bothersome at any given moment :o

I think we can have a forum where (serious!) talk of harming wild birds (including "controlling" or any other euphemism for trapping/killing/shooting/poisoning) is simply off limits.

Is this such a wild idea? LOL

One more thing, If I disagree with someone, I might not even tell them.

I'm glad we're all having this little talk, after all things are weighed out it can surely be a successful venture. If anyone thinks it is a problem they do not have to participate in the forum at all. As in simply do not select Birdwatcher's Forum as a "Watch Thread". ;-D
That sounds easy enough to me.

In fact I see how it might actually do away with these disputes by pulling the Wild Bird Forum OUT of the Wildlife forum. Then only true bird lovers would have a sanctuary for their peaceful & educational discussions.

Deb

This message was edited Dec 29, 2006 5:18 PM

This message was edited Dec 29, 2006 5:44 PM

deb, there is no 'main wildlife area'... lol

Thanks magpied,
Though I think most of the DGers here understood what was meant, I edited it cuz I like ya. :-)

Also edited it because the idea of calling it "Birdwatcher's Forum" is a very excellent idea. Thanks to DebinSC for suggesting that!

Very well said, Machikoneko!

deb, *now* I see what you meant... :) Sometimes I'm not so quick on the uptake!

I agree that "Birdwatchers Forum" or "Birdwatcher's Forum" is grrrreat!

wallaby1,

Anyone from the UK would be against HOSP control. You don’t live here so you don’t see the destruction of our native birds. Are YOU working toward protection of the Ruddy Duck from YOUR government?

“In 1992, the Government set up a task force to investigate the best possible way for the UK to help conserve the white-headed duck. Between 1992 and 2005 the Government commissioned extensive research on a range of control methods including a three-year, extensive control trial (report available at: www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/scientific/ruddy/ruddy1/index.htm). This showed that eradication was feasible and that shooting was the most effective means of control. Live trapping and egg oiling were ineffective, labour intensive and in many situations, impracticable.”

Please tell your government about its “apartheid” and your “opinions”. Please work toward stopping the killing of Ruddy Ducks in the UK!!! Many more people here are not educated about HOSP than those that are. But then, you don’t live here, so you wouldn’t know that either.

magpied,

I would break the law. I have no need to be creative. I would violate the law to protect native birds and so would the vast majority of people who care about our native cavity nesting birds and are educated about HOSP and EUST, including one fellow I know who is a member of our Natural Resources Commission. Not to worry, S&S are open season 365 days a year with no bag limits in all 50 states. Nobody is working to change that anywhere.

How about one bird watching forum and one forum for cavity nesting birds in the United States? Allow people who want to watch birds watch them and post about them. Allow people who work toward protecting Purple Martins, Bluebirds, Chickadees, Tree Swallows, Tufted Titmouse, Woodpeckers and other cavity nesting birds to discuss how to provide safe housing and control non-native birds that would kill them for the sake of killing them, not for survival, as you contend. Until someone actually tries to help our cavity nesting birds they are not educated in the true facts. Yet, folks like you paint us with a broad brush and call us indiscriminate killers of anything we see fit to kill. I ask you for facts that you claim to have and you reply with a statement that we are out to kill anything that we choose to kill. You owe us an apology and some links to back up your claims or retract your mistaken beliefs. We do more for native birds than all of the “bird watchers” put together.

Not going to engage in this. We've been there, done that.

I hope we can have a Birdwatchers Forum where you won't be compelled to mention trapping, killing, poisoning or otherwise harming/controlling any species of wild birds.

Stelco, no matter what the Govt. here does I do not have to agree with it. I see no one species more deserving than others, and nature in the past has always played a large/major part in deciding which birds will live where by natural selection. Or should we all go back to the time of the dinosaurs and try to change that too?

You won't get my eckles up by standing the high ground, I am not a UK native, perhaps I should also be exterminated (in your educated opinion).

The short and tall of it is that this request is for the majority of people who would like to exchange in a friendly manner.

Your manner appears to me to be hostile, abusive and rude to say the least. You also appear to be in the minority. Majority vote here should, IMHO, rule.

If you should wish to put your view forward then I suggest you start another thread here to request a forum specific to your interests, and stop hijacking this one.

I guess I misunderstood the original quest for a bird forum. I *thought* the request was for PET birds. We already have a forum for wild birds. I assumed that this was to be for parrots, parakeets, pet chickens, pet finches, etc.... NOT for wildlife. Many DGers have pet birds and would like to share info about feeding and caring for their pets, just like the dog and cat owners share.

Am I wrong? I think a pet bird forum would be well recieved, but it should not include the wild birds as a topic for debate. Just a sharing of a caring community of people who have pets who happen to have feathers instead of fur in their care. I will bow out now.

Sorry, I should have titled it Wild Bird.

tgif, I know how you feel since I own a parrot but wouldn't the Pet Forum be the right place for that or don't you think it would be received with enthusiasm?

It has worked well there, I just misunderstood the original request.

“Stelco, no matter what the Govt. here does I do not have to agree with it. I see no one species more deserving than others, and nature in the past has always played a large/major part in deciding which birds will live where by natural selection. Or should we all go back to the time of the dinosaurs and try to change that too?”

No wallaby1, you are mistaken. Nature did not introduce the Ruddy Duck to the UK. Man did, just as man introduced HOSP and EUST to the U.S. Natural selection is now eliminating another native species of Duck in the UK because of man’s mistake. The governments of the U.S. and the UK are correct when they ask us to help them to eliminate non-native, invasive plants and animals which man has introduced to foreign lands in an attempt to save native species. If you have a time machine we can talk dinosaurs.

”You won't get my eckles up by standing the high ground, I am not a UK native, perhaps I should also be exterminated (in your educated opinion).”

Man causes problems by introducing non-native, invasive species to foreign lands. I have always advocated eliminating non-native, invasive plants and animals. If you would like me to specify that I do not include man in that definition, consider it done.

”The short and tall of it is that this request is for the majority of people who would like to exchange in a friendly manner.”

That is with the exclusion of any discussion of control of non-native, invasive species. So, if someone wants to breed House Sparrows anyone who disagrees with this has no say. If they want to put up Starling housing nobody can speak against it. That’s just plain wrong, period.

”Your manner appears to me to be hostile, abusive and rude to say the least. You also appear to be in the minority. Majority vote here should, IMHO, rule.”

I’m sure that the majority will rule. I am always in the minority when I enter debates with people who have never offered housing for cavity nesting birds in the U.S. These people like to watch birds, but that’s all they do other than provide some food. There are some that actually provide housing for non-native birds. People like me have to eliminate as many non-native birds as we can to combat this problem. If I seem “hostile, abusive and rude” it is only because you called truth an opinion. My words are not opinion and I take offense to them being called so. Non-native, invasive birds are killing our native birds and folks who sit in their living room watching their backyard birds don’t even know it. Several species would not be here to observe if people like me were not here to make them available to bird watchers.

”If you should wish to put your view forward then I suggest you start another thread here to request a forum specific to your interests, and stop hijacking this one.”

I’m not “hijacking” anything. Mitch stated that this new forum should not be started. Dave presented a concern about the new forum. I am only contributing my thoughts. They are just as valid as yours. I have presented an option for two forums. You seem to have a problem with difference of opinion and presenting options.

Well.....
this is interesting
came back to see how this was going and the fight is already on.

Looks like the chances are not good for this one.

:(

Susan
=^..^=

I certainly hope your wrong 9kittymom. I've never seen such a majority lose.
I would be very disapointed .

So would I!! I can't believe all the rancor over this request. I really don't get it - we aren't trying convert anyone here, just discuss what's going on outside our windows. Geeze louise, lets put our guns back in our holsters. Or better yet, check them at the door. And wallaby1, please don't give up on the rest of us! I would love to see your view if the forum starts up. :-) Thanks for suggesting the new forum pellatory!

Non-native bird species are not responsible for stripping 95% of the forests that once existed in North America--nor have they diverted natural waterways and imperiled, if not destroyed, fragile ecosystems. They have not grazed in the desert. They have not fragmented the forests. These birds have not erected fences, walls, windows, towers, skyscrapers, utility wires. They have not poisoned the air and water. They've not developed an arsenal of pesticides. Non-native birds have not caused the extinction of the passenger pigeon (once the most abundant bird on the continent), the Carolina parakeet, et al. They have not degraded natural habitats. They have not contributed one iota to global warming.

stelco, thou hast spun the issue to make the sparrows and starlings the villainous culprits--and killing them, the panacea. In the grand scheme of things, well, they're not significant. Protect and restore natural ecoysystems and biodiversity will thrive.

These are my opinions, for which I can find supporting scientific research data--just as you can for your opinions.

lilyfantn: ditto. :)

Well said ........m a g p i e d!! I have many of the same exact thoughts and opinions you so eloquently expressed!


:> Deb

Oh and ditto, your ditto DebinSC! To what lilyfantn said!

This message was edited Dec 29, 2006 9:00 PM

LOL... this is only a thread on whether there would be a bird forum or not, and look what's happened since I last checked in. (I have to admit, I do like on-line drama... yet I really dislike tv drama.)

ps. Does anyone know how to force a Raven into populating down South here? I'm a big Poe fan... ;)

No. But I have lots o' raven pics taken by a friend...lol Here's one :)
(copyright Christie Van Cleve)

Very cool looking bird!

He's beautiful!! He can ring my bell and/or come a' tapping anyday ;)

Great photography by your friend!

Non-native bird species are responsible for displacing nesting sites for cavity nesting birds, causing death and illness in humans through disease infested droppings, killing native bird eggs, young and adults and causing millions of dollars of agricultural losses annually.

I protect a species which is nearly threatened in my state. I have a website and devote countless hours in my work. If HOSP and EUST are not controlled the species will become endangered and then extinct. Purple Martins depend upon man to provide them with housing. The eastern species is only known to nest in housing provided by man. If we do not control S&S we can say goodbye to Purple Martins and then Bluebirds and then . . .

There are about 150,000,000 House Sparrows and 200,000,000 European Starlings in North America. If some of us who really care about the existence of several species of native birds, shouldn’t we be able to protect them? We provide them with housing. Should those houses be left to Sparrows and Starlings? If we don’t protect our housing for native cavity nesting birds Sparrows and Starlings take over. What should we do?

I didn’t contribute more children (as a father) to his Earth. I do work toward sensible care for the native creatures here. That means that I have to protect them from non-native species which would eliminate them without my intervention.

Why don’t you people ever understand??????????????????????????????

Dear Stelco,
I think your in the wrong thread... Could you simply make your own?
These attacks are personal and loaded with agenda, please stop posting them in pelletory's thread until you can be civil.

Thank you kindly!

Dear Deb,

I'm in the right thread. I could make my own.

I attacked no one. I have been civil

You are welcome!

Fantastic Raven shot there Magpied! I love pictures of birds in flight.


I keep trying to get a good one of these guys>
Turkey Vultures look so small high up in the air, yet they are so enormous with about a 5' wingspan!

This is a native baby Purple Martin that hopes it won't be killed by a non-native House Sparrow or European Starling.

This message was edited Dec 30, 2006 12:56 AM

These are two baby Bluebirds on hatching day. It’s too bad that both babies and the other two eggs were destroyed by House Sparrows. The House Sparrows never used the nest box after they killed the Bluebirds. So sad, but I guess that IS non-natural, after all.

Boy oh boy Dave, I sure do see your point. Instant inflammation. This reminds me of the Brug forum's issues in the past and you took care of that with a sticky that limited what could be discussed because of opposing factions. Might you do the same with this one? I've just moved to the 'country' and am thrilled to have so many birds to watch, identify and attract to my garden. I'd love to have a forum for bird watching but don't really want to read about non-native bird problems, either for or against, unless I want to look at that particular issue. I agree that Garden Foes is the correct forum for that.