A banning today - Breezymeadows

We had to take the unfortunate action of banning a member today: Breezymeadows.

This action was taken after issuing to her many repeated warnings, requesting that she change her behavior on the site. This morning I emailed her and asked her to help me find a solution to her behavior, but she indicated very clearly that she would not change how she acts on the site.

Therefore, with no other alternatives, I removed her. Her subsequent emails to me proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that I took exactly the right course.

If anyone has any questions about it, please don't hesitate to contact Terry or myself.

Dave

well i just have to wonder what type of behavior i dont mean to act stupid i can only imagine, i value this site to much to be anything but courteous and helpful when i can, and have only abserved the same so im just left wondering...

There are hundreds of different personality types and behaviors that can be exhibited, most of which are good or neutral.

When there is a problem that crops up, we don't just remove people without warning. We always (there may be an exception, but I can't think of one) give MANY warnings and try to resolve the situation before banning them. A banning is very rarely a surprise to the banned member when it happens.

Removing someone is a big deal to us. We don't take it lightly and each and every banning occurs only after much deliberation between us admins, and we are always unanimous with the decision.

Hope that helps!

Dave

I think you guys (admin.) have a terrible job balancing 'reports' and actual facts. I don't envy you. Your decisions must be painful... That 'other' site never offered nary a word to their victims...too bad.

You do a great job balancing personalities, behavior and opinions.

Thanks,
Carol

Dave,

In my opinion you always walk an extra 10 miles before you take the action of banning. We certainly appreciate your patience with all of us and respect the actions that you are forced to take.

Judy

I amen what Judy said!!

I've had my knuckles rapped...and it still stings a little. I felt I had been reprimanded for the use of two words that appear almost everywhere. I now use dang it, shucks, and phooey instead. Just think I could have been alerted in a manner that made me feel less like a criminal! I think that anyone who respects another's values has to compromise. It isn't all that difficult when it comes to language. There are other issues that would have me digging in my heels and refusing to budge, but saying d... isn't one of them!

Dave,

I hope she wasn't kicked because of thread gone wrong based on my question!!! And when a member is banned, for how long does it last???

Thanks,

Aimee

Aimee, please re-read what Dave wrote:

"This action was taken after issuing to her many repeated warnings, requesting that she change her behavior on the site. This morning I emailed her and asked her to help me find a solution to her behavior, but she indicated very clearly that she would not change how she acts on the site."

There was no single incident that triggered this action. For several months, we tried to work with this member. Unfortunately, the situation did not improve, but instead continued to deteriorate.

Bannings are - with a few notable exceptions - permanent.

It used to creep me out when I learned of a banning. Sort of a scary Big Brother thing. But the more time I spend on DG, the more I have faith in the administration. It has to be a hard job for you, but the site is kept on track (not filled with political rants) and civil. There are a lot of sensibilities to be reckoned with and a lot of folks feeling justified for going outside the boundaries. Keep up the good work.
Dave (Not DAVE)

If anyone has suggestions for changing the wording our admin messages, please send them to us. Seriously. It's not our intention to alienate a user when we send a warning note, but to simply make the user aware (privately) of the infraction, in the hopes they won't repeat it. If there is a way to phrase that message to elicit a more positive reaction, we'd be very happy to consider your suggestions.

Sorry, but I won't bite on (or buy into) the "it's subjective" argument on what constitutes offensive language.

If we allowed so-called "minor" swear words because they don't offend some people, it would be difficult (and hypocritical) to prohibit other ("worse") epithets - which also don't offend some people.

Dave set out the standards in the Acceptable Use Policy. He holds himself and the admins to those same standards. I also know he tries his utmost to apply these standards fairly and evenly to every member here. That's about as fair as it gets, in my humble (and yes, somewhat biased ;o) opinion.

Edited (my 3rd - and hopefully charmed - attempt!) to say this post was obviously out of sequence, and was not intended as a response to dave47's post ;o)

This message was edited Feb 24, 2006 11:51 AM

You have to draw the line somewhere. You folks draw it at "G" instead of "PG-13" which I might have chosen. But regardless, there needs to be a line and that's where it is.
Terry, If you send me your administrative warning message, I'd be happy to take a look at it.
Dave

Dave, I sent it.

We (I) made a decision as to what would be allowed, and once I made the decision we had so many people thank us and give us their support that we've stuck with it for all this time.

To relax the standards would potentially begin a downward slope. One thing I've noticed is that downward slopes happen, usually unnoticable until you've gone way beyond where you wanted to be.

It's easier for us to be "G" rated and enjoy each other's company. This is a gardening site, after all. In fact, my other big site, lxer.com, has no filtering at all and there's almost no limit as to what I allow. People discuss politics (even arguing over it) and they use profanity. I don't like it, but I haven't set a standard over there (maybe it's because I don't care about it as much as I care about DG).

Anyway, to be clear here, profanity was not at all the problem with this specific case (Breezymeadows).

dave

As the recipient of several (gosh, I don't want to admit that, lol) Admin warnings and deleted posts, I have never had an issue with the way they are worded.

Dave is pretty straightforward in his wording, but I would *not* define it as harsh or mean spirited in any way!

Terry is even more inclined to find a humorous way to "rap my knuckles", but she still gets the point across.

Unlike another gardening website, you get warnings and the chance to clean up your act. Unless your offense is very heinous and then you should get weeded immediately.

Someone once posted a guideline to the effect of: If you are comfortable saying this to your mother, your grandmother, pastor, teacher and a 6 year old then go ahead and post it. If not, don't.

mg (who has the feeling that this might bite her in the butt the next time she "earns" a warning, lol)

mg, your post reminded me of when my kids were 6 and 10. We went up to NJ to visit the grandparents one Christmas and you should have heard the words coming out of Grandma's mouth! I was shocked the first time. The second time I had to take her aside and let her know that we didn't use profanity, much less in front of the kids, and I would appreciate it if she wouldn't either. I felt so weird having to say that. We never, ever heard her use that language again. lol

All that to say, sometimes we don't realize how others hear us. Keep up the good work, Dave.

I agree - I got caught once or twice and was more embarrassed than anything....it's so easy to fall. Sometimes you don't even realize you've graduated to the PG-13 level. Yet, the gentle reminder was friendly, but to the point. I have no problem with it. If someone does, then they should be banned.

Just my feelings on that..

MG,
you warned - no way(LOL)
I'm sure BM offenses have been deleted, I didn't see any of it(just curious) I'm sure I've been close, but I try not to step over the line and single out a person or group that might be offended.
Al

What's Ixer.com?

LXer is a linux news website.

I started it in January 2004. Currently I have almost no function with it, although I do own it. Other people are editors and I pay them for that.

http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/1/

dave

Dave, I think what you said above, is the most important thing I've read.

"You care".

Nuff said.

I did forward your other site to hubby though. He has his things and I have mine. :)

have you thought of adding foul filters to this site. THat would let the person swear no one would see it(it would be ****** or another appropriate symbol) and you wouldnt' have to worry so much about warning the person.

ANd yes their are numerous ways around the filter but it would take care of the occasional slip ups and not a determined user of needing swear words(which I admit I do on a another site. I've also found other words are filtered but the d word isn't. )

Or the person could self edit with the symbols key. That connotates unidentified swear word you could have fun trying to decipher depending on your level of boredness, they coudl swear and no one would see it.

Not sure just how stringent this is, mind you. but then I rarely see the need for strong language in gardening. Politics yes. dang it, just doesn't have the oomph factor.

It is better to educate the members, than force them through filters and machine-generated alterations to their text. This way we can walk members through the standards of the site.

It has worked extremely well for over half a decade now. :)

dave

Eh, I dunno, Moonwolf....I think the English language is broad enough to have plenty of oomph without having to resort to swear words, munged or spelled right out. It forces you to be creative and get out that thesaurus. ;)

This message was edited Mar 1, 2006 10:09 AM

And best of all, if you sprinkle really obscure terminology into a debate, it requires your nemesis to get out their dictionary - which can slow 'em down and give you more time to consider your next response ;o)

nuh uh...........


but then I enjoy debating with old salty crotechety soldier guys:D (and young crotechty soldier guys and gals and dependants).

ok, still just waking up time to get more tea.

I prefer the clean language...period.

It isn't always the language that gets people banned.

More than once I've seen people roar into DG with all the subtlety of a bulldozer and start beating people over the head with their opinions and beliefs. These types love to argue and cannot accept that there just MIGHT be another viewpoint besides their own. To me, this is worse than the occasional !&%%^$ that you might see.

I have said it before: If you pay attention, you can start picking out those folks who aren't going to be here long.

This message was edited Mar 1, 2006 11:17 AM

You've said it very well, Indashade.

We admins have even developed a sort of 6th sense about these sorts of people.

Anyway, I said it earlier in this thread, and I guess it needs repeating:

profanity had absolutely nothing to do with Breezymeadows' banning!

dave

Is there hope for those who stupidly try to ban themselves from DG due to themselves trying to reason outside the "garden" within the garden?

Yes, I agree, Terry and gardenwife, a little bit of selective and thoughtful vocabulary and syntax can make a real and positive difference in communicating ideas and will keep the level of discourse civilized.

Moonwolf, I am happy that DG posters cannot/do not resort to spelling with the asterisk to create words. Besides encouraging thoughtful discussion, banning the 'asterisk' method of communication keeps the pages attractive and readable.

Dave, I think you do a commendable job of editing discussion and creating a thoughtful and creative site for gardeners. I know copy editing and language useage isn't the only ingredient for a lively site, and you seem to have achieved a good balance in whatever you are doing here.

Thanks again. t.

I would love to have an "Ignore" button I could click on so that when I see posts to my dislike - I could click on the button and their posts wouldn't even clutter my screen. LOL

I have been hovering about the community which began to form at the dealmac.com forum ca. 1998 (in the meantime mostly moved to macresource.com in a big blowup/meltdown/exodus/migration about 3 months ago).
The new forum has an "ignore" feature and it is an absolute godsend.
Check it out:
http://forums.macresource.com/list.php?1
Many of us have close to a 10 year history now and believe me, everything that Dave's has dealt with has happened tenfold in the life of the dm/f
community.

So it IS possible . . I was just joking . . . Thanks for the link.

I'm glad Dave made it very clear that BM was not guilty of any bad language at all. She has her belief system (as we all do) and stuck to her views.

Wow, this sure is a busy thread over a banning. I'm all behind
a website owner doing as Dave has. This is a gardening board.

Could someone clarify, is this the same BM
as the company with the same name?

I have read the reasons, and I know that Breezy had to be banned, but I sure do miss her. I do wish that she could have compromised and found an alternative to her posts so that she could remain here. But, her responses were not in the framework that Dave has set for us at DG. I understand, and agree with Dave, but I still miss Breezy.

I asked about an "Ignore This User" feature years ago-- I think even before we went subscription. There were a couple of people bullying here, and I had seen that feature in use on some other forums and thought it would be a useful idea as we grew.

I remember the thread very well. Terry made up some fabulous scenario about what if she was driving everyone crazy talking about her beloved Vols in every thread and you just didn't want to see it anymore and could choose to ignore her. The bully posse vehemently argued against it because it's no fun to be a bully if no one listens to you.

It seems to me that it was decided when all was said and done that it would be hard to do because of the way the forums are structured or something. The threads wouldn't make sense if certain posts were blank or missing or something like that? I still think it would be a great idea if it were possible.

I'm sure most of us, if not all of us, have certain people that grate the nerves and I'd love the IGNORE feature if it were possible. With some people it's hard to get past either their writing/grammar/English "usage", etc.

Most of all I'd prefer to ignore the whiners who run crying over every little thing. What boring lives they must lead to just sit and read threads for the purpose of complaining.

Wow! I am still amazed you could have an "Ignore" button

When I first found Dave's Garden website, I e-mailed my daughter and mentioned that not only was there lots of helpful information, but it was in good humor. People were so informed and kind. We had experienced a certain cooking forum where some members had turned off many contrubitors with mean-spiritedness and hurtful comments. DG is a peaceful, sometimes funny and really helpful place to come. Not everyone has been able to learn good spelling and grammar and in some parts of our large country people use delightful slang words and phrases, but this doesn't keep me from reading their experiences in gardening nor will it keep me from gratefully accepting their advice. I hope people will ignore my spelling glitches, etc. Even though your job as Admin is a huge one, please do keep standards so that no one is hurt, demeaned or offended.