New formatting to forums coming soon!

Admin - I think you have really done it this time.
- So many glitches and bugs
- No warning to the members other than those who lurk on this forum
- uniform dissatisfaction among the members I interact with

Someone on staff must be in the pay of All Things Plants, and is doing an excellent job of recruitment.

The concept of beta testing is not new. If you say that such was performed, you are either misleading us, or the personnel allegedly responsible are blowing smoke or incompetent. As I have pointed out before, paying subscribers decline every time you spring poorly vetted changes on your customers. You have since obfuscated that problem by no longer posting subscriber counts in the weekly newsletter. Loss of subscribers has produced declining forum participation, necessitating combining forums. What was once a rich source of gardening expertise is being gutted by the loss of subscribing members who are the only people who can post on most forums. By alienating subscribers you are driving this site to becoming a rather prosaic collection of databases and ID forums. You really don't get it, or don't care.

oh golly, I'm not much of a complainer and I work for a large company which throws new programs and products at us constantly and DG is really testing me. It's so confusing what page I'm on in the thread and then I have to scroll to the bottom of the thread to find the next page as there is no 1/2/3 page thing on top of the page and I click there and it sends me to some old thread! My renewal is due in 2 days and I'm on the fence what to do abt this. It's not fun now. PS I hate the extra step to preview too...annoying...

Some threads have been only viewable by paid subscribers. Has this changed and is every thread now open to anyone? This morning someone who no longer subscribes to DG was able to post in Pull Up a Chair. I realize that "privacy" is not guaranteed anywhere but if the rule has changed and everything is now accessible to anyone it would be appropriate to notify those of who pay for a subscription assuming some semblance of restricted viewing.

Maybe I missed it in the above conversation, but can we please have "skip to new" take us to the most recent (unread) post like it used to? Currently, it takes me to the bottom of the first page, and then I have to go to the last page and scroll down. That seems like a bug that should get fixed, but I don't remember seeing it addressed, although a couple others mentioned the problem.

And although it took me by surprise, I think I'm in favor of previewing all posts before uploading them. It never hurts to glance once more at what I just wrote before posting... keeps me from going back to "edit" just to fix a typo. And some people (including me at times!) could use another look at their words before going "live" with them... of course, they may be no more likely to catch how they "sound" the second time they look at their words, but I still like the idea of encouraging us all to "think twice, post once" with this new setup.

Privacy issue and skip to new are being worked on now.

I am trying to find the "watch" or "Follow" option for the DG Site Updates forum and do not see it. I know Watch is near the top for individual threads, but could not find it when I scanned the main forum page.

Oh no!
I can't figure out which way is up and which way is down.

The whole format is weird. Why is everything written twice? I click on "read more" or "read less" and nothing happens. I tried compatibility control to see if it made a difference and it was worse.

Where are the pictures?

Change is good...to a point, but I don't even understand what I'm looking at.

It looks kind of amateurish to be honest. It has no style plus I can't make the entire posts show up.

And why do we have to type in this tiny box where we have to scroll all the way up just to see what we've written?

Ugh!

I'm sorry you guys. I know you work hard on all the changes you make, but this is just too weird.

I feel like those of us using desktop computers or large laptops have been abandoned for those using mobile devices.

That is being addressed now too.

If I open a picture in a thread, say it's the newest post on page 7 at the very bottom, when I review the pictures and then click back to post, I find myself being sent back to the first post on the first page. I then have to go to the bottom page 1 and click on pages 7 again, assuming I remember that was the page number, go to the top of page 7, and then go to the bottom of page 7 to even comment on the pictures or the post. This is not an improvement.

Are the techs aware of this? I am on a mobile device.

No, they don't get it, and no, they don't care. Where is the accountability for failure in leadership? I would encourage everyone who has been watching this process unfold to vote with their wallet and cancel their membership. They're certainly not using your membership fee for beta testing, that's for sure. That they're getting for free, on you.

Let me just issue a challenge to the powers that be. Since the new interface clearly does not work, replace it with the old one that (mostly) did until you can come up with a working version. Is that too much to ask?

This message was edited Dec 10, 2015 1:50 PM

Many of us who are older are having a lot of problems just reading things on these new pages. Please can you at least fix this. I can get use to most of the changes BUT I can not fix my eyes and it will only get worse for me and most of my friends on here.

deejay9 (susie) Hastings, MI(Zone 5a) 1h
while making changes after the glitches are fixed
How about DELETING OLD MEMEBRS Who never participate in any threads make it so people have to buy a membership of 2 months after that if they do not renew their membership they are deleted all their info should be deleted ecept for plant files they donated ..

JUST Keep track of the PAID Up Members if they want plant info they should pay for it like the rest of us .

preview & post should stay the same as it always has been
background is hard to read many post . keep the older background PLEASE .

yes the block is still between some post .

QUOTE :
Newer members have let us know that the dated functions and look of the site are a turnoff. At some point, we had to bite the bullet and move the site forward.

AS for the younger members let them learn to adapt the same as we did when we joined :)

get rid of this read more ad also PLEASE when we cope & paste . our trade list to send to friends .

Read more: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1411088/#ixzz3txJVurTb

I'm going to echo what Sandy [wren107] said about vision issues. There are folks who have vision problems and literally can not see the page due to all the white-ness. Visually -- the pages are very hard to read, if they can be read at all.

While I hate change, and it took me a very long time to get used to the last major change... This one is really difficult. too many changes and way to quickly. I understand "bugs" but this one is all just too overwhelming.

I thought about saying away a few days to let things "settle" but I know I'd be so lost in the threads I follow as the "skip to new" does not work, and there are no time/date stamps, so I'll never find where i left off.

Terry and Melody, I know you both, and who ever else moderates take a lot of flack for these things.... I thank you for what you do, and I'm hoping this dust settles very soon or I feel many may jump ship.

The only change this site needed was the ability to format the text by adding italics, bold etc. Maybe add color to the text. All the other sites I visit have these options, plus smilies (are these now called something else?)
This has not happened.

Instead it takes more Therbligs to do something simple. Not an improvement.

Ditto the many comments about the poor contrast of pale olive against white, and pale grey against white, and total washed out look.

You are entitled to your opinion and assessment of things. Against my better judgment, I'm giving your accusation the dignity of a reply because I won't let you make false accusations without a flat-out rebuttal. No one is deliberately sabotaging the site, or on the payroll of any other site. Any other comments of that nature will not be tolerated. We've got far too many other things to do than defend ourselves against baseless accusations.

Likewise, I assure you we DID beta test the changes. As with your other accusation, I will say only that we are not misleading you, and on behalf of Melody and myself, I resent the accusation.

My guess - and I've said this before - I'm no programmer, but my best guess is that our home-brewed programming, as great as it has held up for several years, is especially difficult to "tweak" and prone to breaking in unexpected ways when we start making changes and modifications. Hence the reason we held off on changes for as long as possible. It's no longer possible to keep crippling along with outdated, brittle programming.

I don't like the effects of broken code any more than anyone else does, but after talking with the techs on the phone this afternoon, I have absolute confidence that they are doing everything within their power to fix things as quickly as humanly possible, and yes they are competent and willing to go the extra mile to make these things right.

It is up to you - and every member - to decide whether to stick it out through the changes, but I hope you do. And if you do, I'm requesting that you refrain from any other accusations about our loyalties, our competence or our honesty. I hope I've made myself clear.

This is an issue the techs are aware of and it is a VERY high priority for them to fix ASAP.

I would like to ask one more time where is the accountability for failures in leadership? You'll note there is no accusation of any kind in the question, it's a procedural one relating to how members can respond constructively to improve the way the site is handled and run. Otherwise our only choice is to walk away. If you prefer it that way, I completely understand, and that's exactly what you will get. It has been happening steadily for years.

Terry, read my post carefully.
"You" referring to the powers that be, not anyone specifically.
Likewise, the comment about beta testing reads

"If you say that such was performed, you are either misleading us, or the personnel allegedly responsible are blowing smoke or incompetent."

Please note the OR. Beta testing obviously was not competently executed, all these problems are a testimony to that. It is legitimate for one to raise the issues of competence and accountability.

Your tone is very ominous, seemingly threatening reprisal for daring to point out the poor management of these changes. I want this site to be the well of horticultural knowledge and interaction it once was.

My comment about someone being in the pay of All Things Plants was obvious sarcasm. The current mess is really inexcusable. Expelling critics is hardly an act of mature management.

Being in denial of the effect of declining subscribership is having on the site and threatening concerned critics only acerbates the situation. My comments may have been harsh, but we have limits of tolerance also.

Well this might explain why the participants in the Squash Challenge never received their prizes. Admin was too busy with this....the participants had to wait a month to even see who won.

I simply don't understand why this half broken version would be introduced? It seems like it should have been tested more, just like all the previous changes. It's hard to get new subscribers when the system is a mess. Im not saying I don't like it but the gray boxes and all the glitches make it hard to know.

It is not possible to look at photos in a thread without being thrown back to the top of page 1 of the thread when I click on Back To Post.

Anyone else have this problem?

Different sized script is strange, white background is tiring, enjoyed the washed coffee colored backgrounds. Forced to preview all posts before sending is an xtra step of danger. I see the two toned posts indicAting viewed and unviewed. So far I am simply waiting as each wrinkle gets found and eased in. Practice will help everyone who actually plays with the options. I too, agree that removing inactive members from the lists is a practical idea.

Yes. That is one of the problems we identified for the tech team on yesterday's call and they are working on it.

What about the vision problems of us "Older" member? I am having problems with both the light green and all of that WHITE. The home page is fine. If they could darken the green and get rid of some of the white that would be a big help. After only a few minutes my eyes start to water and hurt.

Also I was kicked out of the message box and back to the first page

Sandy

I have a couple of questions................I am sincere in asking, and hope that they don't come off as being snotty or snarky.............here goes.

First off, couldn't some of YOUR issues (such as the spam and trolls, which YOU have to deal with) have been resolved re; changes without doing a complete 180 of the whole site? Perhaps not, but would the changes had to have been SO radical? And with SO many glitches? I know nothing about "code" and "programming", so perhaps my question just shows my ignorance as to the whole thing.

Since I have had a couple of days to fume and vent to myself, along with MUCH head-shaking, I will go so far as to say that SOME change, done gradually, would not have met with such horrible resistance (mine included). But, I think, and speaking for myself here...........that the vast majority of people that are here is because to us "older" peeps, this is user-friendly for us. It was easy to read, easy to keep up with our threads, easy to navigate, and just generally a comfortable place for us to be. This familiarity has been ripped out from under us like a rug on a newly-waxed floor and broken both our legs and 1 arm in the process. Some of us will probably not recover.

Isn't there a way to keep the things (program-wise) that make it easier for you to keep ahead of the problems re: members, non-members, spammers, and the dreaded trolls, without making a total disaster of the whole site? I think that the vast majority of people that are here that are pretty much "lifers", or close to it, if they had wanted something more sparkly and new and "all that jazz" would have (or already have) gone somewhere where their "needs" are met. WE would prefer not to go anywhere, this is our family, we love our family, and we would like it to stay as close to what it "has been" as it can be. Alienating the ranks is not a good thing, and I'm afraid there will be a mass revolt in the works. Where will they go? I don't know, but some of us are in some groups that are for paying members only. They have become MY 2nd family, I am comfortable with them and would hate to lose them. Is YaHoo groups a possibility in our future so we can keep our "family" intact and not have to worry about such drastic changes? It might be, and then we would be gone from here forever. I don't think WE, the subscribers, want that, and I'm pretty sure that YOU, the "keepers of the site" don't want it either.

There have been so many glitches in this whole "new and improved" that it makes one wonder just how long and how extensively this was "tested" before it was thrown out into cyberspace for us.

1. No dates on the posts.
2. When "click to newest" is clicked, takes you to the bottom of the first page.
3. Can't get to "home" from the bottom of last read, have to scroll to the top of the page, and in MY case, "home" is not even up on the top. I feel like Moses in the desert, wandering around looking for my home and I will be there for 40 years before I find it.

4. I have not tried to view pix, so I cannot comment on anything anyone has said about that.

5. I also have the dark, empty boxes between posts...........I have all ads turned off, so I guess that is where ads would be.

6. I, too, have the /////// where an apostrophe is inserted in a word.

7. Not a fan of the post preview, but if that was the ONLY change, I would get down on my knees and praise the heavens.

8. I agree on background being hard on the eyes, and I can see without any problems, not like some here that have visual problems.

9. There have been posts on threads that I have posted and they don't show up as having new posts. I have changed nothing. I really don't care to try and remember what forums I have posted on and then have to navigate the "swamp of truth" (to quote Sheldon Cooper, hmmmm.....maybe I don't have that exactly right) to find if I did, indeed, post there and where the samhill it IS!!!

I also think that this massive upheaval could have been softened by doing as someone suggested...........putting it at the top of the home page IN BIG LETTERS so that everyone would have been made aware of it. Whether they chose to read it would have been their decision and you could have, in all honesty said, "we alerted you that this was coming". I NEVER go to site updates, I have no reason to go there.

All that being said, I really, really hope that somewhere is a place where YOU guys can be "sensitive to our needs" and still have some semblance of control for the issues that you, the moderators have.

I like it here. I don't want to leave, as I just re-upped in October. If I leave, it would be like me being marooned on an island in the Pacific with no connection to my family and I don't want that. (but perhaps my "family" here might welcome the respite...........LOL)

So, like I said in the beginning, I hope I didn't come off as petty and snide, but I am one of these people that asks because I "need" to know some things before they make sense to me. (I am also a visual learner..........don't TELL me, SHOW me.........:>)

Thanks for reading.

We worked on an alternative date/time stamp that ill be rolled out in an upcoming patch.


This issue is a high priority and the techs are working on it today.


Out to the right-hand side as you scroll through a threadbs posts are "back to top" links. Do you see them?

4. I have not tried to view pix, so I cannot comment on anything anyone has said about that.


This is another issue the techs are aware of and working on resolving.


You should not be seeing backslashes in words with apostrophes now. If you are, please identify the post and we'll take a look at it.

7. Not a fan of the post preview, but if that was the ONLY change, I would get down on my knees and praise the heavens.



The background isn't that much different - the shading was a little darker on the old version. The bigger difference is the lack of hard boxes around the posts. We are going to give this a bit of time for people to adjust to it before we ask for any further tweaks.


There may be a small delay between the time yo post and if you go back to the forums page and see it as new. While that may not be ideal, I don't think it ultimately affects anyone's use of the site.



We weren't sure exactly when the rollout would be, so I put threads in this forum two weeks ago. This has always been an issue, and there is no easy answer - it is up to members to put this forum on your favorites list, as we have promised to communicate upcoming changes to you via this forum. We aren't here to interrupt your conversations with announcements, so we have to rely on members to put this on your list, so new threads with announcements will be seen.

All that being said, I really, really hope that somewhere is a place where YOU guys can be "sensitive to our needs" and still have some semblance of control for the issues that you, the moderators have.

I like it here. I don't want to leave, as I just re-upped in October. If I leave, it would be like me being marooned on an island in the Pacific with no connection to my family and I don't want that. (but perhaps my "family" here might welcome the respite...........LOL)



Not snarky at all - I hope these answers help.

Are you meaning when you post a reply? You see it in preview mode and in edit mode. If you are seeing things doubled up somewhere else, please let us know.


Which pictures?

Change is good...to a point, but I don't even understand what I'm looking at.



That sounds like something in your browser - which one are you using?

Ugh!

I'm sorry you guys. I know you work hard on all the changes you make, but this is just too weird.



We haven't abandoned desktop/laptop users, but those on mobile devices have felt ignored for a long time, and we're finally getting our arms around some changes that will provide a better experience for them :-).

Yes, they are aware of it and they're working on it as a high priority :-).

Constructive feedback - specifying what is not working as expected, or your questions - are always welcome.

I'm not sure what you mean by accountability, but here's what I can tell you: Melody and I are working pretty much nonstop with the techs to fix the bugs. None of the problems/bugs were expected at roll-out - we would have not given the green light if they had. Testing was conducted by the dev team and by Melody and me.

We take responsibility for agreeing to the color changes and the formatting changes that the dev team suggested and we tested. We knew that they would not be popular with everyone. We knew there would be some very negative reaction to them. Sometimes leaders are required to make decisions that are not popular with all, but they are still necessary. That - to me - is the very definition of accountability. If you meant something else by it, I would welcome your suggestions as to what we could do better.

I'm not threatening anything. I'm simply pointing out that we have limited resources (there are only two of us as admins), and we are going to focus our time addressing constructive criticisms, not baseless accusations. If you want to point out specific issues that we need to address, we welcome your input. But if you want to call our integrity into question (whether you're being sarcastic or serious), or use this as an opportunity to disparage the site and/or the way we administer it, we won't respond. That is a waste of our time that we would rather spend making sure technical issues are being addressed and other members' actual questions are being answered.

There have been 4 posts to this thread since I made MY post about 15 minutes ago. There was NOTHING on my home page that indicated that there were so I could go there and read. Hope THAT gets corrected soon, otherwise it will be back to "Moses in the desert" syndrome some more.

Terry, I am experiencing the same thing that Anna is with updates to this thread - I am not seeing anything new on my Home Page when updates are made. However, the Mid Atlantic forum threads that I have posted in are showing up now when updates are made - it seems like it is just this specific thread for me.

Are we having to click "watch thread" at the top of each thread we post on to have it show automatically when there are new posts? Posting to a thread does not automatically "keep you in the loop"???? If so, that also sucks.

And when you DO make a post, it automatically takes you to the beginning of the thread, not to the spot where you MADE the post. That is a PITA too. Akin to "hunk and peck" typing. Gah!

This message was edited Dec 11, 2015 11:01 AM

I will again bring up the preview post. I post on several websites and none of them force me to preview. I for one don't understand why this can't be looked at. There is no reason to remove reply as one of the options.

I tried DG on my smart phone yesterday and it just doesn't work at all.

I have read lots of posts where readers are having trouble with the new format. I went back to Terry's screenshots and the old format - the text seems larger and darker.

Terry and Melody, I have always tried to be polite and considerate when posting here at DG. As a paying customer of DG I feel my comments have been summarily dismissed.

I don't quite understand how you can say that the changes are good when in fact they don't work. Saying that we will get used to it - well since it isn't working well I hope that is not true.

Maybe a new thread with the proposed timeline of fixes.

I do think that DG needs to take a step back and realize this "update" isn't going as well as they had hoped. I think my concerns are valid. l also think other's concerns are valid. Dismissing us isn't going to help at all.

Some additional input for troubleshooting that "Watched Thread" issue. I tested the theory that Anna spoke of - I picked the action to "Watch" thread, and now updates to this specific thread when they occur are showing on my Home Page. Seems to point to the condition that posting in the thread doesn't trigger the "watch", only specifically picking "watch" does.

I Really feel that we all need to Just step Back & Let our adm : Do what they have to do to fix this they cannot do what needs to be done & Answer all the concerns . I'm sure they will do right by us if we give them the time to do so . . they have our list of concerns so lets give them a few more days to work it out for us .

this has always been a friendly Place LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY :)
These gals are great ladies .
POST a proble you personaly are Haven a problem with . so they can fix it for you .
I Hope these tiny post Boxes will be done away with .

Twice I have typed out a message and then hit the preview button. When I was then taken to the next page, the page on which I was supposed to preview, my message appeared in the top box but the second box where I would actually edit apparently, was empty. In both cases, I lost my post. Even using the back arrow and reentering the preview option, I still was left with the same problem. The post would not post to the thread.

Terry and Melody, I assume the two of you are the interface between the members and some faceless mix of IT personnel, owner oversight representatives, etc. I have no idea who makes the decisions as to what is done and how. You two have the unenviable position being caught in the middle between end users and poorly made decisions. I apologize for my sarcasm, but it was not directed at the two of you.

That aside, the organization, whomever that is, has failed to learn lessons from previous upgrades. Common courtesy would have been a "heads up" posted on the home page, rather than blindsiding the community. Considering that most anyone logging on can discover multiple problems in short order, it is insulting to the community to present this as a properly vetted product. There seems to be little appreciation on "the far side of the interface" of the degree of frustration and alienation these events generate in the community, and the resulting damage they produce. It makes no sense for this organization to become a case study of poor public relations. There needs to be some lessons learned so that changes are made more gracefully in the future. That is a wholly reasonable expectation.

Terry and Melody, just curious as to why the bugs identified to date in latest changes could not have been detected in pre release testing as they are mainly functions most of us use regularly? If features work for the two of you pre release why don't they work for so many of us when released? Is it the home grown ness of the DG architecture ?

Secondly, to your knowledge, should anything other than DG (de tynt, vigalink, scorecard research, etc) be loading with DG?

One adjustment I have made for better readability on my old pc is to reduce the size of my 'window' 25% vertically and horizontally (less white space0

Two suggestions:
1) Since you want each member to track any site changes by watching this forem rather tahn using the banner, maybe one change could be to automatically enable everyones watching this site as the first 'sticky' on everyones watched threads or watched forums? In the meantime it seems prudent to use both this thread and the banner announcements, the banner announcement being most critical on day of release with a link to thread for explanation or problem reporting.

Second suggestion may seem silly, but here goes. Perhaps a better time to release 'changes' site wide is some time other than the crush of the Holiday season when people have more time and resources to roll with what ever!
Thanks in advance for your consideration of the above

I am wondering why my specific and constructive suggestions were never addressed. I never called into question the integrity of any admin. I pointed out the failures of the IT people to construct a system without beta testing it first. It must be very convenient for Terry and the other admins to pick and choose who they answer, what they fix, and whether or not they can be held accountable for failures in leadership. I am still waiting for a reply to my question regarding what our recourse is for these failures other than canceling membership. So far it has been dismissed, which tells me great deal about how admins respond to constructive criticism. If Terry chooses to deny us recourse to make this a better site, then the story pretty much speaks for itself. Our comments are a waste of Terry's time (to use his/her own words).

This message was edited Dec 11, 2015 10:10 AM

Terry and Melody,

I don't want to sound like I am "piling on", but the title of this message thread is wrong, and has been for a while.

I would think that you would have learned by now to Beta Test any change to Dave's Garden before installing it.

My guess is that many of us Dave's Garden participants (present company excepted) are old enough to be at least a little resistant to change.

Now, to address a bug (feature) that is not to my liking. That has to do with the Quote feature. I like to use multiple instances of Quote, distributed throughout my message, so that I can address a quoted message a piece at a time. The last time I used Quote (yesterday) a later instance of Quote popped up at the front of the message, which makes it impractical (impossible) to use multiple instance of Quote distributed throughout a message. I would appreciate it if you disabled the feature that puts a second (or subsequent) instance of a Quote at the top of the message. In fact, disabling the top-of-the-message feature altogether would probably work just fine. Because a Quote starts off at the top of the message because initially it is the only content of a message, and if the user wanted to insert a preamble before the Quote, then the user would appreciate being to add his preamble in before the Quote without the Quote jumping back to the top of the message.

Terry and Melody, I feel sorry for you. But you have to know that this furor was predictable.

ZM