Anyone interested in GMO Foods in our supermarket.

From my garden 2011 - left to right - amaranth, nasturtium, watermelon, sunflower, bronze fennel.

Connecticut has just passed a law to require GMO labeling of food.

And so has Maine, at least in one house. Several other contiguous states are considering such measures. Of course, Monsanto has threatened to sue.

>> Quoting:
it is also sure to lead to all sorts of serious side effects, including the deadly nerve disease Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GSB), which is listed on the shot as a potential side effect.


Unless there's been new research results in the last 20 years since I had GBS, the warning on vaccines is pure lawyer repllent. (There might well have been new results in 20 years).

But when the warnings were first added, it was because ANY storng immune reaction has a small chance of triggering GBS. A cold, infection, pregnancy, even in theory a heavy dose of an unusual pollen.

The difference betwween getting GBS from a cold 9as I did), or from a flu shot or other vaccine, is ONLY that you can sue a pharmacuetical company but you can't sue a cold. So they have to put the warning on vaccines. Obviously, vacines HAVE to cause an immue reaction or they aren;'t effective, that's what a vaccine is.

So an author that links any specific vaccinne to GBS is advertising that he's an ignoramus or a liar ... well, someone who deliberately creates a false impression to advance an agenda. Someone who feels entitiled to mislead trustful people so they will think what he wants them to, not what honestly reported facts would have led them to think.

But it makes me cranky when some liar uses a syndrome I had to frighten people.

I don't have a big problem with people who hold an opinion that is not very strongly supported by academic evidence. Any one study and most ten studies can't "prove" much at the level of real-world political decisions. The real world is very complicated. Maybe being somewhat more cautious than existing scientific evidence would support is a path of wisdom - I think that's arguable either way..

Everything is a trade-off, and "more food" or "cheaper food" has to be balanced against "some risk" or "imaginary risk" or "natural caution". Even the Unabomber knew that we either had to use lots and lots of modern technology, or some large % of the popukation would have to volunteer to be euthanized.


Waving the red "GMO" flag and trying to scare people that "GMO vaccines" have more risk of causing GBS than a sneeze is a more speicifc deceit, without support.

>> sure to lead to all sorts of serious side effects,

It doesn't take any scientific training to recognize unsupported hot air couched in scary terms. In my opinion, ordinary intelligence should identify that as fear-based propaganda.

>> deadly nerve disease Guillain-Barre Syndrome

It's a syndrome, not a disease. Both of those words have specific meanings and it is not a disease.

It's very far from 'deadly", Fiirst, it's rare, around 10-20 cases per million per year.

Second, the mortality rate for people who get it is pretty low, 2-4%. If you soend any time in a spinal rehab or head-injury rehab, or where they treat MS patients, they DON'T call it "deadly GBS". They say "he only has GBS, lucky guy".

80% have a complete recovery.
90% of all victims recover 90% of their strength. Very few cases proress far enoguh to interfere with breathing.

Wikipedia:
>> the death rate is still about 2–3% even in the best intensive care units. Worldwide, the death rate runs slightly higher (4%),
>> Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GSB),

It's "GBS", not "GSB". The author is not just a clumsy liar, he's an idiot. Or as bad a typist as I am.


Wikipedia:
There was increased incidence of Guillain–Barré syndrome following influenza immunization during the 1976-1977 swine flu pandemic;[12] however, epidemiological studies since then have demonstrated either an extremely small increased risk following immunization (under 1 additional case per million vaccinations) or no increased risk.[13][14]


• ^ Lehmann HC P et al. (Sept 2010). "Guillain-Barré syndrome following influenza vaccination". Lancet Infect Dis 10 (9): 643–51. doi:10.1016/S1473-3099(10)70140-7. PMID 20797646.

• ^ Liang et al; Li, Li; Liu, Da-Wei; Li, Ke-Li; Wu, Wen-Di; Zhu, Bao-Ping; Wang, Hua-Qing; Luo, Hui-Ming et al. (February 2011). "Safety of Influenza A (H1N1) Vaccine in Postmarketing Surveillance in China". New England Journal of Medicine 364 (7): 638–647. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa1008553. PMID 21288090.


I AM annoyed by deliberate propaganda to push a political agenda, especially if it falsly invokes "science" as supporting its lies. I don't accept the theory that it's good to advance a political agenda by lying. Unfiortunately, such a high % of anti-GMO publicity that I've had pointed out to me as "good science" is obvious deceit that I'm ready to generalize. The "pigs stomach inflamtion study" that GG pointed out was the best one so far, but maybe because I only read the paper, not articlews claiming "GMOs cause ulcers".

GG,

I did see, and quoted, their statement that tjhe mycotoxinlevels were below the allowed rate. But they also made the point that the thing they found (inflamed stomach lining) is NOT tested for by other studies. So yes, stomach inflamtion MIGHT be occuring due to very low levels of mycotoxins.

I'm more interested in their comments avbout CRY protiens causing insect gut damage, and that thye have found a new unsuspected mechanism, by which they cause mamalian stomach inflmataion.

- are CRY protiens present in comemrically sold GM food? Are they being considred for approval?
- do doses of pure CRY protiens have the smae effect (maybe at dopses high enough to see the effect in one month isntead of many motnhs
- is there a dose-response curve?
- do you need 'triple-stacked" CRY protiens to cause the effect?
- what is thee mechanism?
- (almost unanswerable) is there any similar detectable human rea vtion to real-world levels in realworld foods?

Memory, your edibles look great!

I got it out of my system. I'll stop posting about GMO if I can resist.

Wow, just saw this - a warning from Consumers Union, no less. I think the tide may be turning in recognizing the potential dangers...

http://consumersunion.org/news/consumers-union-statement-on-new-long-term-study-of-feeding-ge-grains-to-pigs/

I was very surprised to find out how educated everyone is concerning GMO Wheat & Hybridized Wheat. For most Americans, every single meal & snack contains foods made with wheat flour.Bagels,pancakes, for breakfast. fettuccine Alfredo for lunch,pasta with Italian bread for dinner.Poppy seed muffin for dessert.

Im surprised that anybody is still posting on these GMO threads. Talk about going in circles.

I know, behillman. I think we depend on it far too much. But re the education, when the term GMO is in the name of a thread you'll naturally attract people who are interested in the subject and have done some reading about it.

1lisac, don't you find Consumers Union's statement to be interesting? I don't think posting it is going in circles; their reaction to the pig study (and the pig study itself) is brand new and I saw it as a watershed in mainstream reaction to GMOs.

I've glanced down through several of these posts, and here's our position as moderators of the site: this issue is obviously contentious, and it is highly unlikely that anyone's argument is going to change anyone else's position.

So here's what I'm asking each of you to look within yourselves and determine.

IF you can discuss the subject matter without personal attacks and denigrating other poster's positions, fine - discuss away.

If you can't, it's time to walk away.

We would much prefer that members take responsibility for their own choices in how they act and react here in the garden. Know when it's time to leave well enough alone.

If you can't/won't do that, and this thread continues in this vein, we will have to shut it down and "bird dog" some folks to make sure the rancorous exchanges don't continue elsewhere. Please don't force us to do that - it's unpleasant for us and you. Our goal is to keep DG the fun, friendly and informative place it has been for almost 13 years. As members, you can help us do that and many of you have done that for a very long time. We sincerely hope everyone here will choose to not spoil things for yourself or others.

Thanks greenhouse_gal for the Consumers Union link.

Hopefully we can continue sharing information regarding the pros and cons of genetically engineering our food supply in the manner that Terry has asked to do.

Here's a link regarding a genetically engineered apple called Artic Apple which should be available this year.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/genetically-modified-arctic-apple-zw0z1305zkin.aspx?ViewAll=True#axzz2W6Z2htMU

I saw that, Honeybee. I only buy organic apples anyway. Once in a while I'll try a non-organic apple and they always make my lips burn, now that I'm not desensitized to the sprays anymore. Apples are among the most pesticide-laden fruits out there, along with strawberries, when they're not organic. But I do worry for my grandkids.

Thank you for posting this article. I am at a loss for words.

I'm subscribed to the following online sites. Did I miss any?

Cornucopia: http://www.cornucopia.org/
Mother Nature Network http://www.mnn.com/
Mother Earth News http://www.motherearthnews.com/
non-gmo project http://www.nongmoproject.org/
Slow Food USA http://www.slowfoodusa.org/
Center for science in the public interest (although I don't always agree with them) http://www.cspinet.org/

An article in Vegetable grower magazine talked about a test on cookies.
They took 2 cookies out of a batch, both made exactly the same way. Labeled one organic & the other one as regular.
People tasted them. They said the organic one tasted lower in fat and were deemed more nutritious, but the regular cookie tasted better.
Talk about nonsense!!

GG - I try to buy as much organic food as possible, but sometimes it is hard to find. I shop mostly at Trader Joe's because, according to their website, they do not carry anything that contains GMO ingredients under their "Trader Joe" label.

And that is why I keep trying to find out what is really in my food!

I admit that some conventionally grown food tastes better to me, too. I just don't want pesticides/herbicides/fungicides as part of my meal.

If Russia can produce their food organically, why can't the rest of the world

http://oneco.biofach.de/en/news/russia-organic-farming-regulation-planned-for-2015--focus--9f1fff73-cb1e-41e1-9bc4-6a5be9b424c3/

No money in it for large corporations.

Honeybee and YankeeCat, I get a lot of this stuff on FB, since many of my friends have similar concerns.

Baker Creek Seed Company http://www.rareseeds.com is another site that posts a lot of information on GMOs, as does Sustainable Pulse http://www.sustainablepulse.com but I think they do most of that posting on FB.


This message was edited Jun 13, 2013 10:58 AM

Here is the lead researcher's responses to Monsanto's critiques of the pig study. In light of Rick Corey's comments I find it interesting that no one is discussing mycotoxin levels as a possible factor in inflammation - not even Monsanto's scientists.

http://gmojudycarman.org/a-specific-reply-to-monsanto/

I'm sure glad I'm not a pig, or any other farm animal raised without access to green pastures and still waters.

How can living with painful inflammation be considered "normal" by anyone's standards?

Interesting comments on Monsanto's comments.

Thank you Honeybee for posting this about the Artic Apple. Very interesting .

GG,

Thanks for the Consumer Union link. It was one case where the study was NOT mis-represented in the non-technical press.

In fact they pointed something out that I had missed: the 'severe inflamation" also occured in animals NOT fed the GM fodder:

"the rate of severe stomach inflammation was more than 2.5-fold higher, on average, for GE-fed pigs compared to non-GE-fed pigs
(32 percent vs. 12 percent, respectively). "

I had thought that the GM feed caused a symtpom not otherwise seen. But it only made something that already happens, more frequent.

Maybe the thickened/heavier ovaries were a whole new symptom.

Persoaqnlly, I don't think that some group "viewing something with alarm" adds anything to the factual content of the report they are referring to. Maybe it has more political impact becuase it leaves out most of the details and is easier to read.

P.S. When I refer to propaganda and lying, I have tried to always make it clear that I'm criticising text in the links that have been posted - authors of publications - not DG members and their posts.. I have not been calling any DG members liars or intetenionally mis-representing. . I'm sure everyone here passionately believes what they're saying.

HoneybeeNC said "I'm sure glad I'm not a pig, or any other farm animal raised without access to green pastures and still waters.

How can living with painful inflammation be considered "normal" by anyone's standards?"


Feedlot animals don't lead "normal" lives, and I would suspect that they are highly stressed and suffer from all the ills that stress creates. That's one reason why they lace their food with antibiotics, which is a whole 'nother issue.

Rick, yes, everyone here does seem to be rather passionate about his or her position. But that can make for good discussions as long as everyone stays pleasant.

This message was edited Jun 13, 2013 2:37 PM

Agreed.

I just tried to look something up in the earlier "GMO" threads in the vegetable gardening forum, and saw that the links between the first and second thread were removed, and they are locked so they can't be "bumped".

Here are the links in case anyone wanted to refer back to prior discussions and links.

first thread:
Vegetable Gardening: GMO'd Vegetable seeds?
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1299045/#top

second thread:
Vegetable Gardening: Continuing on with this silliness. GMO.
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1303911/?hl=#top

Since some of my health problems are soy-related, I've done a lot of research in the last 2-3 years. Most soy is now GMO unless specified as 'organic', and soy additives hide under about 40 or more different names in processed foods... names such as flavonoids which wouldn't make one automatically think of soy when reading the ingredients.

I got a chuckle out of the post that said the poor animals in a feed lot must suffer from Stress.

For a Cow, living in a feed lot is the animal equivalent of being on the California Welfare Program.

All of the Stress inducing factors, like earning your food, paying your doctor, buying medicine, etc., is taken care of. So you get to loll around in the shade waiting for the dinner bell, or feed truck.

But the poor cows out on the range often have to walk uphill a couple of miles to find something to eat, then they have to walk downhill a couple of miles to get a drink of muddy water, and the flies bite, because there is no fly sprayer machine at those country waterholes. So tell me again about the poor cows and the stress. Have you ever seen a cow in a feed lot with his nose covered with cactus thorns because he got hungry enough to eat cactus?

LOL,

Ernie

Ernie, do a google search for "stress in factory farm animals." Here's a sample web page:

http://www.sustainabletable.org/274/animal-welfare

And here's a good summary of practices:

Factory Farming

More and more consumers are becoming aware and increasingly concerned with how farm animals are treated. Industrial type farm settings, commonly referred to as factory farms, have replaced traditional, more natural farm settings in order to produce the highest output at the lowest cost. While the MSPCA recognizes the need to find economic and efficient means of raising livestock, the Society opposes those practices--such as intensive confinement systems--which cause needless pain, suffering and stress to the animals involved.

"Factory farms" are characterized by the use of crates and cages that either totally isolate individual animals from others of their species or crowd many animals together in order to save space and increase handling efficiency. Factory farms are also characterized by the manipulation of diet in ways that interfere with the animal's good health, handling animals in stressful or injurious ways, surgeries performed without appropriate use of anesthesia, surgeries performed on animals solely to prevent injuries resulting from confinement-induced stress, and selective breeding practices which produce characteristics that increase animal suffering. Factory farm practices also use an alarming number of antibiotics in order to keep animals alive and producing under unhealthy, stressful conditions. The MSPCA believes that good animal husbandry should be based on humane stewardship of livestock.

In April of 2008, The Pew Commission on Industrial Farm Animal Production, released a 2 1/2 year analysis based report Putting Meat on the Table: Industrial Farm Animal Production in America that calls for major changes in the way factory farms produce milk, eggs and meat. Three of the Commission's key recommendations are:

Banning non-therapeutic use of antimicrobials in food animal production,

Phasing out the most intensive and inhumane production practices
(i.e., gestation crates and battery cages), and

Replacing the broken farm waste system that we have today.

Read what The Pew Trust, The Washington Post and The Union of Concerned Scientists have to say about this important report.

http://www.mspca.org/programs/animal-protection-legislation/animal-welfare/farm-animal-welfare/

This message was edited Jun 13, 2013 9:12 PM

Greenhouse,

A "Feed Lot" is not a "Factory Farm".

I will look at Google if you will go out West, Texas, Wyoming, Montana, and see the conditions some of those Cows, Deer, Buffalo, etc., live under the year around on those "Traditional Farms", that may be green for two or three months in the Spring. Then be sure and stay out there watching them romp and play in January when a blizzard comes roaring through. Some of the cows and steers are lucky enough to spend a few months in a Feed Lot, which will be the best months of their lives, but the Buffalo and Deer do not have it that opportunity, so what are you going to do about them? And has anyone done some stress tests on the Range Raised animals for comparison purposes?

I assume Kobe Beef Cattle are raised in a way that the people you quote would approve of, but the last time i saw any Kobe beef for sale it was about $40.00 a pound.

I will give you the last ten thousand words on this subject, since we have learned there is no way to reconcile the true facts of life with the fantasy world your articles are written about.

Ernie

Ernie

If only animals could talk. I wonder which existence they would prefer.

I see the person who knew it all has abandoned the thread, I was going to post this for his benefit;

http://farmandranchfreedom.org/gmo-harms-reproductive-and-digestive-health/

It would be interesting to know how much inflammation is present in the stomachs of organically raised, pastured pigs.

You'd be surprised at how much inflammation we humans carry around...

There are 425,000, yes thousand, pigs butchered everyday in the USA. Where are the acres going to come from to pasture all those pigs ?

Your part of the country has feral pigs, along with the rest of the south. Ever watch any of the shows on TV that are trying to catch some of them. They do much destruction.
Your pastured pigs would destroy the grass, not eat it. Pigs like to dig holes & root for grubs & worms.

Bottom line, there is not enough real estate in the USA to pasture all the animals on farms across the country.

Maybe "we" (that includes me) count on meat for protein too much in our diets.

I count on proteins and fats in my diet a lot, and the proteins/fats from animal products (meat, eggs, cheese, yada, yada) seem to work better in my body than the proteins from some vegetables like beans.

My body doesn't tolerate vegetable fats much at all, excepting olive oils and coconut oils, neither of which I can grow.

If I had some fencing, I could have a pig or a meat goat, or maybe a beef or two in my back yard. Enough to supply meat for a year... and I could augment it with caged meat rabbits and ducks. Ducks wouldn't destroy my garden the way chickens do.