Patio Drain

I'm hoping someone can answer this one for me. I'm putting a cinder block and stacked stone seating wall around my patio. Should I also install an area drain? The patio slopes away from the house towards the seating wall. Since concrete is porous will the little rain water that get here in Southern California soak through it?

Thanks.

You might want to consider inserting a few pieces of pvc pipe((1/2 inch) cut to the length of your cinder blocks between some of the mortar joints...Placed on the surface and surrounded by mortar and blocks.any water would flow through to the yard. That would ensure no water problems.

themoonhowl...Thats actually a pretty good idea, thanks. I have an existing 4" drain running parallel to the seating wall (right behind it) so I thought I'd tie-into that with a "tee" and a 4" square area drain cover. And just pour the concrete around the extension.

Sounds like a plan. water flow is always a consideration when you start reconfiguring your hardscape. Good luck with your project...and please post a couple pics along the way. You never know who you might help or inspire.

Grins, Moon

Hey Moon,
I've been thinking more and more about your idea of using 1/2" PVC between blocks. What if I split (length-wise) to create a "tunnel" of sorts? See, here's my overall problem...I'm pouring a 12" wide footing. The blocks are 8" wide, leaving 4" of new concrete exposed. The stacked stone is apprx. 1 1/2" leaving 2 1/2" of new concrete exposed.
1). If I go with the tunnel idea, I could move the blocks all the way forward (meeting the existing patio leaving no new concrete exposed) and all is fine. My fear is not being able to catch as much water as using a 3" area drain.
2). If I push the blocks all the way to the back and use a 3" area drain (or 2) I'm probably not going to be able to ever get that drain cover off (for maintenance or whatever) because of the stacked stone. AND a line of new concrete. Any ideas?

Hey Dawg
I think splitting the pvc would work just fine...kinda like clay tiles that were used as gutters. I guess my question would be "where do you want the water to go?" Does it need to be taken completely off property into a drainage system, or just away from the patio and into the yard? If it needs to go away completely, the PVC tunnels could run into a "french drain". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_drain

If you are only trying to prevent water from collecting on the patio, then nothing more than the PVC tubes would be necessary. The water would disperse into the yard behind the seating wall. In effect, creating mini drains.

The advantages i see from using the PVC is zero maintenance, with or without a french drain, and no visible new concrete..

Moon,
Just what I was thinking. In answer to your question, in a perfect world it would go directly into the two area drains that I have in the planting bed behind the wall. In order to do that, I think I'll create a little "channel" in the remaining 4" of footing leading into the area drain. As the water exits the block wall, it will flow into that channel and directly into the drain.
Well, thanks again for the suggestions and letting me bounce ideas off ya. I'll post some pictures as I go along. I'm not planning to get started until next week as my mother's coming down from Seattle to see the newest member of the family.

I'll keep you posted.

Dawg

That sounds like it will work...Dawg

Congratulations on the "newest member of the family". Have a great visit with your Mom.

Moon

Thanks, everyone is doing well.

Onto the seating wall. Ok, I've finished the rough wall, now it's onto the area drains. Notice the "tunnel drains" that I created by splitting a 2" pc of ABS down the middle and notching out the blocks. I got out the garden hose, and everything seems to work as planned.
Now, if I could get my better-half to finalize her choice for the stacked stone, we'll be in business.
BTW...eventhough the wall will have a finished height of 18" (including a 2", pre-cast top) it seems a little low. I was thinking about running another course of 4" block on top. That will make the finished height about 22". Any thoughts?

Here's a closer view.

Bravo....that looks great. I think the drains will work quite well. As to the wall height, standard dining chair height, also benches and patio chairs is 18 to 19 inches, so once it is capped it will be right on the money. The addition of another course of blocks is strictly a matter of personal preference.

Thanks for the update. i know you are ready for the project to reach completion...GRIN

Thanks for the pictures. You have done a great job. Looks professional. Can't wait to see the plants in the background.

Thanks. It took me a bit longer than what I thought, but it turned out pretty good. Do you know how many trips to HD it took to get all those blocks and bags of concrete back to the house??? My little Ranger can't handle too much weight now-a-days. Then had to haul it all to the backyard...that took one Saturday alone! But, that's the hard part. I've got to re-route the area drains and backfill, then it's on to the fun stuff. Picking out stacked stone this weekend.

I'll keep posting pics as I go. Have a good weekend!

I had to put my 89 Ranger out to pasture last year...sad to see it go but it had reached the unhappy point of costing more to repair than the Blue Book value...

Glad your better half has reached the decision to start deciding on stone...grin

Moon, you got your money's worth out of that truck.

Absolutely Peg. It had close to 280,000 miles on it when it went to the salvage yard. It was truly a "sturdy boy"....grin

I've got 256,000 on my '92. I drive it everyday to work and I'm going to hold onto it until it dies...still running strong!

That is a "so called dawg".

I personally think the Rangers were one of the best little trucks ever made. It got great gas mileage, and it just 'worked it's hind-end off'. i was so sad when my son (a mechanic) declared it no longer serviceable.

We love Ford's too. We have a 10 year old diesel F250 with only 70,000 miles. It is a long time keeper. We use it occassionally for pulling, not for a day to day work truck due to the cost of fuel.

Now back to the patio. We are waiting for the next photos.

Ok...another issue. I can't get enough slope (1/4" per foot) for my area drains behind my wall. The point where I tie back together with the original pipe isn't low enough. Or my area drains aren't high enough, one of the two.
A few questions: Is a certain amount of standing water in the drain pipe ok? Any suggestions on how to raise the first drain to create a steeper slope? Any thoughts on covering the actual drain grate (mulch, rock, etc) when it comes to landscaping/

Any thoughts / comments are welcomed!

Hey Dawg...a small amount of standing water is probably not an issue...mainly because your area does not have the regular heavy rainfalls some areas do.Where I am it would be a hazard due to breeding mosquitoes.

. For your second question....I am a "visual" person.....not able to theorize without "seeing" so I am not much help. But it would seem that since water always seeks its lowest level, that even a 1/16 to 1/8 inch slope would be enough for the first drain.

For the third question, place a piece of screen/hardware cloth over the grate and rock over it...that would be the least likely material to clog the drain and would allow for water flow without restriction or movement of the material.

On the first issue, I think you are saying the drain pipe (in the flower bed) is low (at ground level); therefore, you are able to raise the soil in the bed as high as you would like. You may have to glue more PVC pipe in that drain to raise the drain and then the soil in the bed.

On the second issue, like Moon said, be grateful you don't have mosquitoes.

On the third issue, I have seen plants that will with stand bog conditions planted at the drain to keep the soil in tack. I have something in my have list. I'll get you the name in just a second.

Please send pics.

It's Rain Lily, Zephyranthes. These are low growing. Just look for plants that are good in a pond.


This message was edited Aug 17, 2011 7:58 AM

Hey Guys!

I won't be able to take any pics today as my better half took the girls to Disneyland but in the meantime I'll try and explain a bit better.
Most of the problem is that the patio slab height (and conversely the height of the patio drain "tunnels" coming through the wall) is just a bit lower than the grade of the flower bed. I can't lower the PVC pipe and drain in the planter (to match the patio slab and "tunnel") much at all because I'm losing slope to where I have to tie it back into the main drain going to the street. I hope that explains the situation better.
I wonder if It's possible to download a video clip instead of pictures...?

Chew on this and I'll look into the videos.

This message was edited Aug 17, 2011 5:54 PM

I gotcha. the top of the line can't be lowered enough to drain into the end of the line because the end of the line is at a fixed depth. Lowering the drain pipe would put it below the level of the end drain. What if you used the "dry creek bed" method for that area rather than a drain pipe? with a little finessing the water would be channeled in the direction of the drain without having to travel through a pipe to reach it. Are you talking about a huge amount of water, like a downspout that empties onto the patio? It seems that an inground drain in that bed would kinda be overkill unless you are afraid the bed would flood from patio drains.

Yup, you got it! And no gutter downspouts will drain to that area. I'm more concerned with the minimal amount of rainfall we get (for the planter drainage - with my clay soil not much of it gets absorbed into the ground) and hosing off the patio from time to time.
Maybe you're right. Maybe an area drain for these seating wall tunnel drains IS overkill. Maybe I should just level-out the planter bed (to make sure the rainfall doesn't run back and pool against the backside of the wall) and let the patio tunnel drains just empty into the bed...? Maybe dig a 12" x 12" hole filled with rock and let the patio drains drain there?

That would trap water that could actually soak into the bed and be used by the plants rather than channeling it away, then having to water. There is a certain elegance about simplicity... And your back will thank you...grin

Well, very good. I'll see what I can get accomplished tomorrow and post some pictures afterwards.
I'm think (since I already have the pipe paid for and laid) I'll just "dead-end it" horizontally with a slotted drain cover into the rock-filled hole (maybe 1" from the top) and if it ever gets too high, it'll drain into the pipe so as to never overfill.

Sound good?

That sounds like a plan. And one that will work quite admirably. Have a good weekend.

Hey Dawg...how goes the drain project?

Well, I got a little ahead of my picture-taking. I got my drain pipe and drains installed along with the sprinkler lines. I've done most of the backfill and now have some finish grading to do along with some dirt haul-off. I'll take some pictures this afternoon and post them this evening.
How are things down there after the weather you guys have had?

Amazing how many side jobs go along with any project, Grin.

The creek is rising...nothing epic yet...we can still get across the bridge. Got about 8-9 inches of rain..but the good thing is that it came in cycles spread out over Thursday night through today. That gave a lot of the rainfall the chance to soak into the ground rather than run off to the creek.

We are watching the Bayou to the North and east of us (about 1/2 mile) One of the rivers that feeds the bayou Manchac is expected to crest right at flood stage so the bayou will take up that slack...and is supposed to crest 1 foot above flood stage. The Bayou feeds the creek a 1/4 mile east and south of us. The creek is already over its banks so we figure we may be a peninsula as we have been before. My house sits at the highest point in our neighborhood. This will be the 4th time the creek has flooded in the last 10 years....at its' worst, we still were high and dry and a good 12-15 feet above flood level.

Other places were not as lucky, but not nearly as bad as some storms have been in the past. I kept hoping Lee would move a bit more to the west so Texas could get the benefits of a somewhat "gentle" storm. They certainly could have used a good 8 to 10 inch soaking.

Looking forward to seeing your progress...

Glad to hear everything is alright! Yeah, Texas could use a little rain...hopefully soon.
Pictures to follow shortly.

So, in these pics you can see the individual drains. I'll dig around each drain and fill the hole with 1-1/2" rock. As you can see I've got to finish grade the planting bed and (hopefully) direct the water towards the drains.

These drains are at the end of the bed at the "return" of the wall. They're offset because the drain coming from under the sidewalk has a tee with the first drain, then the elbow pushes it out to where the second drain is. But, neither one will be visible because they will be covered with the rock.

This message was edited Sep 5, 2011 9:18 PM

Here's the other side of the "return" wall to the fence.

Let's try this again.

...and again.

..and one more time.

Very nice job. That is going to look really nice once it is rocked and replanted, ya do good work Dawg GRIN Has your wife chosen the stone for the wall?