old seeds

Heheheheh....

Horshack, you have the floor...

Shoe

The old basil seeds that I sprinkled in a tray mostly germinated. The sprouts are about 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch tall above the soil and are just sitting there. They haven't gotten any bigger in at least a week. Is this normal? Should I be doing something else?

milesdt - did you give them some fertilizer?

Honeybee, No I didn't fertilize them. I have read here in one of the threads to be careful about fertilizing new sprouts. So I held off. I only have fish emulsion. I mix one tablespoon with about a gallon of water. Should I feed the basil sprouts a little?

Thank you all for answering a question I never even asked *G*. I have been going thru my garden stuff, and have tons of old seeds. I'd like to send them to new homes, but was afraid they would be just a disappointment.
Now I figure I can even offer them for trade if I send enough, and tell people they're old. Lots of Maters from last year, cuz I won't be starting my own this time round....

milesdt - there are conflicting ideas about fertilizing, and as with all things "gardening" you have to find what works for you. There is no right or wrong way.

Personally, I do not use fish emulsion on any plant started indoors. I think it promotes "damping off". Instead I use Miracle Gro's water soluble tomato plant food (it's pink) at ¼ the amount of package directions.

I've tried experiments using fertilizer when seeds are sown, and other experiments when sprouts first appear. In each instance I have found plants do better when using fertilizer when seeds are sown. I liken it to a new born baby - it's hungry, it's looking for food, it cannot survive long without food. Although I can't see what's going on below ground when seeds first sprout, I suspect they first put down roots. If they don't find food during that time, (in my opinion) their growth is stunted.

Once plants that have been started indoors have their second set of true leaves, they go into the garden (after being hardened off for a few days.) The garden soil is prepared ahead of time with organic fertilizers incorporated as needed. After that they receive only organic fertilizers, including fish emulsion.

If all you have on hand is fish emulsion, try using a very weak solution and water your basil from the bottom. Unfortunately, basil is very susceptible to "damping off". I usually wait until the weather is warm enough and sow it directly in the garden. I seem to remember from what I have read, sunshine is a natural fungicide.

I hope this has been of some help to you.

HoneybeeNC,
Regarding "organic" fertilizers, I have watered my seedlings with a scant 1/2 tsp (a plastic spoon...) of Epsom Salts to date (about two applications on most of the seedlings).

I just bought some Miracle Grow Liquid 12-4-8 (which is what I'll be using for Tapla's 5:1:1 container mix to grow my veggies in this season...), and I'll begin adding 1 tsp (the same plastic spoon) to the EP for watering.

Are these additives considered "organic?"

Gymgirl - I really don't know if these are considered "organic"

The Epsom salts - maybe
The Miracle Gro - probably not

I use "chemical fertilizers" indoors only because I have had experienced with "organic" fertilizers causing damping off.

GG, M-Gro is definitely not considered "organic". Epsom's Salts is acceptable though with the NOP.

Honeybee, I like your likening a seed to a new-born baby, needing food scenario. However, seeds and young seedlings already have a food source within them to get them started, that is what the cotyledons are. In another post I made a year or so ago, (went and looked it up to save time on re-typing it) I wrote:

"A seed is a tiny plant, in a box, and it carries its own lunch." (One of my favorite quotes though I don't know the source.)

The seed has enough energy to get on with growing into a plant. The cotyledons (which look like leaves but are usually not referred to as such) are what transfer the food from the embryo to the seedling. Picture them as "two little lunch bags". As long as you see they have their lunch bags you know they are doing just fine.

Every young'n loves to play outdoors (Yay, recess time!) and to a plant that means they love light, either sun or artificial lights. As their 'lunch bags' (cotyledons) become empty of food you'll notice they will begin to shrivel and/or turn a pale color. Usually by that time they'll have grown their "true leaves" above the cotyledons. At that point you should feel free to give them a small amount of some sort of snack, with an emphasis on "snack" as opposed to a full-blown meal. (A snack would be a VERY dilute solution.)

Once the plant has gotten TWO sets of true leaves that is a good sign they have developed a nice root system and can then handle food uptake without a risk of fertilizer burn. That would also be a good time to transplant them to a bigger pot (or "playground"!)
.... end of post.

So, miles, methinks if your basil plants have true leaves feel free to give them a dilute solution of food, be it fish/kelp, or M-Gro. As for me, if they're inside the fish/kelp stuff stinks to high heaven, save that for outside usage.

Shoe

Hey, Shoe!
I love the illustration!

Just to clarify, I used the EP to green up the seedlings, which were, in fact, starting to get a tiny bit pale. I haven't put the MG liquid on anything yet, so, at this point, I guess I still have "organically" grown tomato plants. My concern was for displaying them at our local Farmer's Market and promoting them as "organically" grown. Thank you for the thorough explanation of their growing process.

My timing seems to be spot on for the first time since I started my second seeds ever in 2007. The tomato seedlings should hit their stride (that 2nd set of true leaves) and be ready for plant out just about the time I'll put them on sale at the market! By the time they get to their new homes, the new owner's can plant them out and determine whether they'll stay organic, or get some of their own brand of fertilizers!

P.S. ALL of these tomatoes shown were started from "old" seeds I saved myself (2007-2008 season)...I guess-timate I had a 94% germination rate.

KEWL!!!

Linda (who is watching the batch of seedlings to see which 12 plants she will keep tto grow for herself, and which will promptly get that dilute dose of fertilizer TONIGHT!

Hugs to you both!

^^_^^ (jumping up and down, and clapping hands for finally getting the veggie seed-sowing timing right!!!)

How's this? Approximately 2/3 of Phase I...

This message was edited Jan 31, 2011 3:42 PM

Not to hijack this thread, but here are two references to old seed and 14 years isn't even close.

When this lotus seed grew there were people alive who knew Mohammad personally.
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/lotus_history_oldest_seed.html

When this seed grew Jesus' Deciples could have been walking the earth.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1122_051122_old_seed.html

This message was edited Jan 31, 2011 8:40 PM

GG, laws differ from state to state, but here, in order to label anything "organic", you have to be certified. It's a complicated (at least for me), expensive process, and to me, it sometimes ends up allowing things I would never do/use. I use the term "Naturally Grown", which has no specific qualifications, and I can always explain just how they've been treated.

Catmad,
Thank you sooooooooooo much! I was looking for a marketing term, but I also want to be honest in any transactions and representations. If it's ok with you, may I borrow your term, "Naturally Grown?"

By the time I offer the seedlings up, I will have used Epsom Salts and MG liquid fertilizer on them, probably only two applications. I think most folk will not mind these applications (and the explanation!)

Linda

Gymgirl - I'm glad Catmad pointed out that one cannot put up a sign saying: "Organic" without certification. Our local farmers' market allows signs that read: "Grown without pesticides" - and as she also said, you can always explain.

As to using a small amount of chemical fertilizers on your seedlings, I wouldn't worry about it, especially seeing as you can't label them "organic". I think it's pesticides/fungicides/miticides and any other "cides" that people care about NOT being in their food.

Thanks, Bee! That makes a lot of sense.

GG, no problem *g*. I can't claim any credit for it. I learned it at my organic Dairy, where they had a sign for Kittens Needing Homes. I asked why they didn't tout them as organically grown, and she smiled and said they were "Naturally Raised", but not "Certified Organic", as they couldn't vouch for the sources of some of the things MomCat brought back for them. That brought on a whole discussion about certification, and inspections and what a PITA it all was. Most of what they stock is either one or the other, but most of the meats, while pastured and grass fed, is not certified. And that they just used the NG term for their veggies and such, too.
Made sense to me:)

Ok, I kept up until "NG"...?

Gymgirl - I assume "NG" means "Naturally Grown"

Yeah. Thx!

Ooops...yup, Naturally Grown. Sorry. My laziness is showing....

We were talking about old seed. I just did a gemination test on some older bean seed. Here are the results.

Pencil Pod black Wax Bean for 2008 season, Which means it was harvested in 2007. 100%

Kentucky Wonder Wax Pole Bean fro 2004 I think. Had real poor storage. It stayed in the garage for a couple of years where it gets to be 95 i the summer and damp in the winter. 30%

Some other brown seeded bean that I don't remember what it is, but from the same order as the KY Wonder 80%

Having nothing to do with old seed but Gymgirl - I saw that movie too. It was the best illustration of putting money into circulation I've ever seen. But I saw it on the late late show many years ago and don't remember the title. I do remember that there were some famous comedians in it - the old type - not the stand up kind - and it was set and probably made during the depression.

Thank you, Muttlover!

Last year I grew some 8 year old squash seed and 16 year old tomato seed. All seed was stored in my shop temp 35 to 45 in the winter and 55 to 85 degrees in the summer, but summer humidity is generally 10 to 20 percent. Onion seed will rarely germinate past 3 years even in Idaho. I would expect seed to be viable, in your area , the southeast to be half of what we have here in Idaho due to our generally very low humidity. humidity and heat are a seeds enemy for long term storage.

Just to ad one more.

I have some corn seed that is the color of bloody butcher but I'm not sure what it is.

It was given to a friend of mine off a restaurant wall. He pulled the kernals of the cobs and put them in the laundry room for several year. They then ended up for acouple of years in the garage. A bunch of it got dumped on the dirt floor of the garage for a couple of days before I discovered what had happened. I scooped them up and put them back in the can.
They've sat 2 more years. This means the seed has had about as bad a storage life as possible. I just did a germination test on them it looks like it is going to be 60%

Hello Folks,

here is a site you might want to book mark or even print out the information .

Seed Germination Database

http://www.backyardgardener.com/tm.html

it is packed full of information and I have had very good success with 99% of the information when folks have asked for how-to-info when forking with seeds . I hope it serves all of you as well as it has me .

Sarge

Sarge- Wow, that link is amazing, there is so much info my head is swimming, all I need now is the botanical names of my seeds and I am feeling like a pro...lol. Thanks!!!

Dee

Wikipedia will cross them over but most of them give you the correct name for the seeds at the bottom and a location # where it tells how to revive them a bit of studying the page and you can revive just about any type of seed .

Sarge

Right now, in Haddassa Hosp in Isreal they're doing studies on medicinal plants mentioned in biblical and talmudical sources. They sprout and grow the plants and test them for the porported medicinal qualities. To make sure they're using the correct plants they're using seeds from tombs and other archiological sights of the time. So, if 3500 year old date seeds wil sprout... Also, on this BBC program I've been watching "Victorian Kitchen Garden" they just sprouted some pea seeds that were atleast 15 years old. Got lousy germination numbers, but they had thought the pea extinct until a jar of them was found from an old long dead gardener and they planted them. This is one reason I grow heirlooms, I'd hate to think there was nomore of something just because I chose the, "bigger, better, faster, more" path.

I will Have to say that I am a bit of an optimistic person when it comes to seed and growing any thing from them, from "Old Seed" However, with the link that I have posted and a bit of research and TLC a one of a kind seed can be brought out of its dormancy and grown . knowing what type of seed you are trying to grow helps also . the condition in the manner that it was stored helps too but is not required (studying the seed will tell you that by the nature of the condition of it )

most folks simple are trying to grow old or Heirloom seed and need only to be able to revive or germinate enough seed to get plants to continue the strand of plants, veggie, fruit that they are growing from the seed . and it is more important to isolate that seed /plant from the other plants so that cross breading dose not happen to keep the plant pure of its kind and true to its breed and Heirloom seed type.

This can be done by creating a small cold frame/ plot / garden off to its self with out other types of plants in the same family in the area , so cross pollination does not happen . once the fruit has been born it can be harvested when ripe and the seed saved at that point you control how they are preserved and saved .

Sarge