Proposal: Carnations (Dianthus caryophyllus) Forum

To be clear, you can use any of the forums listed above to discuss Dianthus. If you have information about a particular species or variety, it is a great idea to share those observations and notes within the PlantFiles listing. That is far more enduring and easier for future readers to find, rather than buried in a discussion thread.

If you want to talk about a particular out-of-print book on the subject, you can also use a forum thread to do so --you just have to be prepared to retype pertinent excerpts if the volume isn't available electronically and is no longer in print. ;o)

Mike... Karen... Somebody want to start a Dianthus discussion in say the cottage gardening forum. They do fit in there real good. That way we can continue discusions of not only the garden Dianthus but Carnations. A major favorite of mine too and post a link back here so folks can sign up for Dianthus forum , btu w e cna chat our head s off in between.

Ummm So what does this mean.....No Dianthus Forum?

It means the best way to get a new forum is to demonstrate there is a need for it (we have some under-used forums that were good ideas when they were proposed, but they just weren't really necessary.)

We've learned to hold off and see if a new forum proposal has "legs" - we look for the existence of older threads that show there's been a longtime need for a separate forum. If that's not the case, then we wait to see if new threads on the subject are sustained over a period of time (not just the flurry of posts that a suggestion can generate.) If a topic begins to dominate an existing forum, that's a pretty good sign that it could support its own dedicated forum.

Got cha!

Excepting certain contributors at the Rock and Alpine forum, I have probably grown more species dianthus (not cultivars) than anyone here. While I do not question if there are enough dianthus enthusiasts, I do wonder if it warrants separate forum. A forum on its own can have its advantages, but with it also comes disadvantages, the largest in my mind being:

It prevents regular gardeners from being exposed to the wonderful genus! If everyone with the most choice pics of dianthus post on the Dianthus forum, how will the regular Joe or Jane gardener ever see them? How will they know to even look for a Dianthus forum (let alone regularly visit)? As was pointed out already in this thread, people don't even realize that carnations are dianthus.

If your purpose is to bring more gardeners into the world of dianthus, then I put to you that a new Dianthus forum will work against that end, as visitors to such a forum will be far reduced in number, and only the occasional newbie may drop in.

Of course, this is only my 2 cents.

Rick
(A regular contributor on the Rock and Alpine forum, and someone who already has too many forums on his watch list to keep up with)

Terry,
I'm another who would love to see books relating to gardening that are on-line. I, too, do the majority of my reading like this, and to have this resource at my fingertips would be of great benefit to me. Trying to find this wealth of knowledge sprinkled throughout DG is simply not possible. Perhaps this issue could be revisited? Karen's suggestion to have a DG feature for this kind of book or reference that parallels the existing DG Bookworm would be very beneficial :-)

Thanks for listening, as I realize this is not pertinent to what this thread is about. :-)
~Susan

CARNATION... This is one of my favorite flowers. I have the small pink dianthus that have grown in my garden for 5 years now. I will be starting some mixed tall Carnations soon. If I have any luck with them I will be sure to let you know how I did it.

Can anyone recommend a hardy white Carnation with good conformation which can be grown from seed?

Mike

Sorry Mike. I don't really know of one.

For anybody interested go to ebay and in the search box put

Carnation-Express Your Love, Mix Color 100 flower seeds

The seller is somebody named royallivingx and they from Malaysi. They sellign 100 mixe d Carnation seeds and looks like some Picotees and others I haven't sen before possibly in the mix. Don't know if the seed commercial or harvested, btu might be something good and unusual in the bunch of they have cross pollinated.

Didn't think it was bad at all. The ad ends Sunday soemtime. I got two packets and ya get half off on shipping so was oly 7.42 for 200 seeds. Not too bad if they dont' make it here , btu might be somethign good to work with if they do.

Kim.. if ya put Carnation seed in on ebay somebody sellign the King of Blacks ther e and somebody els e has a deep deep red, not sure if it a really deep red or the Kings and they not using the name.

Mike I cna sen dya soem of the Grenadin seeds if ya want to play with them. Ya might get a white out of it as ther e white in the mix.

Thanks much...thinking about getting some of the Grenadins too.

Quite by accident I found the following eBay seller (seeds2yous) from Malaysia with two mislabeled Carnations with exactly the colors in which I am interested. I am not sure I trust the color on the “King Of The Blacks” but I will make an inquiry of the seller. The dark purple color looks similar to Florigene's Moonvista GM Carnation shown in the photograph (lower left) which is attached to my first post above.

Dianthus Grenadine King Of The Blacks, 25 Flower Seeds
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250519028931

Dianthus Grenadine White, 25 Fresh Flower Seeds
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260495833362

Unfortunately the Garden Watchdog doesn’t track eBay sellers, which is understandable except in the case of seed sellers. Given the time limits on eBay feedback it will be many months before you know if the seeds you purchased are winners or losers and by then it is too late to provide accurate feedback via eBay. Has anyone purchased seeds from “seeds2yous”?

Mike

Starlight1153,

If we can’t have a forum dedicated to Dianthus Genus, I really don’t know if it is worth the effort to maintain a thread under the Cottage Gardening Forum. A Dianthus Forum sequestered under Cottage Gardening is not going to gain that much attention. My primary interest is genetics which is why I am active of the Hibiscus Forum. If by the end of November there is not that much activity on this thread we might as well let the topic die. If we can’t have a forum of Dianthus my second choice would be a Plant Genetics Forum, which doesn’t exist either.

If we don’t build it, they will not come!

Mike

I haven't bought from Seeds2Yous before. I saw them too when I was looking. Soem folks and if they buy from ebay list them in the watchdog.

Ya it a gamble gettign from those vendors but you never know. Iof if not big bucks which thes e aren't and the feedback numebrs aren't bad. I usually take a chance.


Mike I too am interested in them not only to grow, but usually when I get into a specific cultivar I do so to try and hybridize them. Now ther e is a forum for hybridizers and that is for anybody who workign with making cross and genetic work. Zman.. forget what name he using now is ove r in the hybridier s forum. Now he works onyl with Zinna , but the seedlings he has produce d are astounding. While he mainly works with Zinnia, alot of his principle s can be applie d to other plants.

Maybe for now that a place to go. Unde r the hybridizer s forum w e cna cover all aspects of the growing, maintaing and hyrbidizing of them. Could be a plac e to start.

That why I decide d to get the seed from Maylasia. Hoping against hope that maybe they might have a bit of different genetics in the seed. There always the hope of getting one seed with a wild gene in it. : )

There is always a large selection of species dianthus in the seed exchanges of the North American Rock Garden Society, Alpine Garden Society (AGS)and Scottish Rock Garden Society (SRGS). They tend to be the smaller types, though. The two last ones are in Europe though, and you will need a small lots permit.

This is last year's selection at NARGS
http://nargs.org/images/stories/seedex/seedlist_08_09.pdf
You need to be a member.

I sure would love to see a Dianthus Forum on DG. If that does not happen, at least we can maintain and hopefully increase interest in the subject, which overlaps so many DG forums already in existence; for example, there are forums for hybridization, perennials, rock & alpines, cottage garden, annuals, bonsai (don't know if they've gotten into bonkei - landscapes within a *small* pot - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonkei - 53 bonkei were created in the 19th century for every station of the Tokaido Road in Edo Japan - http://www.hiroshige.org.uk/hiroshige/tokaido/tokaido.htm - imagine those tiny dianthus within the context of a bonkei!); design; Gardening History

Michael - sorry about the digression. But I do have a couple more ideas regarding finding a central spot for a Dianthus Forum. We now have folks on the DG Rock and Alpine Gardening Forum also working with NARGS. I think it's great that DG is so interactive with the larger gardening community on the web in so many ways. I'm told that the DG PlantFiles have become quite a resource to academic institutions around the world thanks to high standards of some members volunteering here.

Soooo - what would you think about seeing if a Dianthus Forum could be established on the NARGS website? They are using a wiki resource with a capability for forums (if I'm not mistaken - see http://info.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php ). Maybe someday, out of a Dianthus Forum on the NARGS website, along with interest generated from related websites like DG, another Dianthus Society might evolve.

Having read more of the comments on this thread, now I'm wondering if the Rock and Alpine Gardening Forum on DG might be the best place for this thread in the immediate future? This thread could also house links to other dianthus-oriented threads as they appear around DG for the time being.

Leftwood, thanks for mentioning those other seed exchanges - maybe I'll try those next year - life is too short not to try some day.

Star - that is so exciting about hybridizing dianthus - would love to learn more about that - at least I wouldn't need a 5-gallon bucket of dirt per seed (exaggerating, but one's hinges do get creaky lifting things as one toddles forward into old age)

Hope my thoughts might be useful - just exploring possibilities

Karen

Karen, Gardens North sells a tee shirt/sweat shirt that says "So many species, So little time" LOL

Brainstorming is always a good thing. Of course, you have to be a member of NARGS to post anywhere on the site, including the wiki. That would be $30/year. But that also gives you access to the seed exchange and lotsa other stuff. I do think forum(s) are in the site's future, but the site is young yet. I have been encourage to add to NARGS wiki and will be starting soon. It's so new that I have been helping them work out bugs, only because I couldn't get things to work!

Still, I am not sure the whole Dianthus genus should be included in an organization's site that deals with smaller plants only. You'd need to talk that over with the officership of the Society. Likewise, I am not surethe DG Rock and Alpine forum is the correct forum either, for the same reason. We welcome discussion of the smaller species (those for bonkei too), but I don't think carnations would ever fit there. I am thinking the Perennials forum is the place to be that would encompass the entire genus. In the same way, if you make the Rock and Alpine forum your base, then you're only exposing yourself to a small part of the DG community, and only a fraction of those you would reach via the Perennial forum.

I have been reviewing the Public Domain books in Archive.org on Carnations and came across a 1911 book of Carnation culture which was intended for the hobbyist. Two digital transcriptions are available to which links are provided for both. The quality of the color plates vary between transcriptions and I will let the reader decide which one is to their liking. In one of my previous posts above, I commented on the use of electronic books from Archive.org.

Carnations & Pinks
by T. H. Cook
Published in 1911, F.A. Stokes co. (New York)
http://www.archive.org/details/carnationspinks00cookrich
http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924002812893

Chapter V of this book deals with breeding Carnations from seeds and cross fertilization techniques which are discussed in detail. Using the OCR capabilities in DjVu I have attached Chapter V in its entirety below. I did correct a few OCR transcriptions errors but did not alter the British spelling of words used in the text. Based on my experience with Hibiscus I would recommend have considered disposable Q-tips in place of a brush to transfer pollen but the Q-tips may be too large for Carnations.
Mike

Carnations & Pinks
by T. H. Cook (1911)
CHAPTER V
CROSS-FERTILISATION

For very many years I have given much attention to the raising of seedling Carnations by cross-fertilisation. This is one of the most interesting operations in the culture of Carnations, or indeed any garden plants. Cross-fertilisation may be practised in the case of any type or strain; for example, I should like to see some improvements made in the delightful class of Bizarres and Flakes. The old variety known as Admiral Curzon has remained the best of the former class for about sixty-five years. It may still be possible to raise one with equally good qualities by crossing Admiral Curzon with pollen from the variety Robert Houlgrave. It is always advisable to make this, or any other cross both ways; by this I mean that in one case the variety Admiral Curzon may be the seed-bearer, and in the other case the same variety should be used as the pollen-parent. Cross-fertilising should be carried out in fine weather, when the pollen is in a powdered, not a granular condition. There are always two horn-like processes in the centre of the flowers ; these are furnished with short, very delicate hairs, and are the stigmatic or female parts of the flower, to which the pollen or male fertilising agent must be conveyed with a fine brush. The pollen will be found amongst the petals of the flowers in the form of small, yellow globules. If these are touched with a fine brush, the powder will adhere to the brush, and may be conveyed to the style or stigma by lightly touching it with the same brush. The best time of the day to do this is from 11 o'clock A.M. to 3 P.M. On cold, dull days the pollen is not in a suitable condition to be used. The plants, bearing the flowers about to be fertilised, should be removed to a greenhouse at some distance from the other Carnations in flower. Referring again to the varieties to be chosen as seed and pollen bearers, I would select in crimson Bizarres, Master Fred as a pollen-parent, and John S. Hedderley as a seed-bearer ; the variety Sarah Payne as a pollen-parent, and William Skirving as a seed-bearer. Charles Henwood, a purple Flake, should be crossed with the pollen of Gordon Lewis. Sportsman, a scarlet Flake, might be crossed with the pollen of Matador. In rose Flakes, Thalia should be crossed with Merton.

Before giving a list of white-ground Picotees for cross-breeding purposes, it may be as well to state that all the seedlings will not be of the same class as the parents. I was trying to obtain a fine purple-edged Picotee from seed. I therefore crossed the variety, Her Majesty, with another fine, wire-edged variety, and obtained, amongst other good selfs, one which was sent out under the name of Purple Emperor. All the classes of Show Carnations and Picotees have a strong tendency to revert to the self-coloured state.

In heavy-red Picotees, Ganymede should be crossed with John Smith. In the light reds, Thomas William with Mrs. Gorton.

In heavy purple-edged Picotees, Fanny Tett may be crossed with Mrs. Openshaw. In light, purple-edged Picotees, Lavinia with Somerhill.

In heavy, rose-edged Picotees, Little Phil with Mrs. Beswick ; and light, rose-edged Picotees, Fortrose with Ethel.

It would be tedious to make selections in all the classes of Carnations, including yellow-ground Picotees, and it may be sufficient to insist on the importance of selecting varieties with vigorous constitutions as seed-bearers, but they must also possess other good qualities. The pollen-parents should be such as are remarkable for richness of colour and high quality in the flowers ; but, at the same time, the more vigour that can be obtained in the seed-bearers, the better.

In the self colours, I always work on the system of keeping each colour distinct, crossing, for example, scarlet with scarlet, and yellow with yellow.

When a flower has been pollinated, it will soon be apparent if the pollen has taken effect, for the petals will droop in twenty-four hours. If this does not happen, the operation must be repeated until the flower collapses. As soon as the petals decay, they should be pulled out, so that the small capsule will be the better exposed to the sun and air. The capsules will frequently damp off in a cold, wet autumn. They can only be saved by keeping the plants in a dry atmosphere, and as near as possible to the glass roof of the greenhouse. The seed ripens about the end of September or in October, and the capsules may be gathered as soon as they develop a brownish colour. The seed is usually black, but sometimes it is merely of a cream colour. The seed-pods should be laid out to dry in an airy room directly they are gathered, labelling each variety with the names of the seed and pollen parents. After three or four weeks, they will be fairly dry, and the seeds should be removed from the capsules (or seed-pods), as they keep better if made up into packets and placed in a drawer in a dry room.

The best time to sow the seed is in March or April; it germinates best in a slight bottom heat, in a house with an atmospheric temperature of, say, 55°. The seedlings generally appear under such conditions within seven days. They should be pricked out into boxes, putting the little plants at 3 inches apart, and they may be planted in the open ground any time after the middle of May, provided they have been properly hardened to the open air. Any good, deep garden soil will be suitable for them. They require to be set out at 18 inches apart each way, as the plants are capable of making specimens of considerable size. I have counted over four hundred flowers and buds on one plant. I ought to repeat that it is not worth while trying to raise seedlings unless the seed has been saved from the best varieties obtainable. At the same time, amateurs who do not raise seedlings cannot have the pleasure that belongs to those who have new varieties continually opening into flower; for surely there will be some prizes amongst them!

I know one amateur who bought a half-crown packet of seed, and raised from it some beautiful varieties — one of them he sold for twenty guineas.


This message was edited Oct 31, 2009 8:46 PM

I am curious as to why you recommend a q-tip instead of a fine brush. By the nature of the cotton on the q-tip, it is a rough surface, compared to a fine brush. If the stigmas are really as delicate as is relayed in the book, one would think a more delicate transfer apparatus would be called for. In addition, and again due to the microscopic jagged surface of cotton, one would also assumed that giving up the pollen to the intended stigma would be comparatively problematic.

But this is all just logical conjecture, as I have never dealt with, nor investigated dianthus sexual parts. I do see one possible advantage of a cotton q-tip: I have sometimes come across times when a suitor just doesn't want to give up his pollen. The cotton might serve to actually grab it away.

Leftwood,

You make a good point. The real advantage with Q-tips are that they are disposable and there is no danger of cross contamination of the pollen. I don’t believe I have any hardy Hibiscus which are under 6” in diameter and many are over 10” and produce a lot of pollen. Obviously Carnations are significantly smaller and produce a lot less pollen. The pollen could fall between cotton fibers and be lost. A better solution might be to remove the stamen by the filament with a tweezers and apply the pollen directly. My problem with a brush is contamination.

If my winter projects go well, I will need a reliable solution by next summer. Some of the Carnations I will be working with don’t produce a lot of pollen and every pollen grain will count. I am still reading and if I find other solutions I will post them.

Mike

My garden will forever have various dianthus in it. I'm all for a forum!

Mike.. thanks for postign that. I have dial up and an old puter that runnign on it's last legs and I can't open alot of links.

That is especially interestign abotu the petals dropping within 24 hours. Save s alot of wondering and worry and would you to be able to go ahead and abort those flowers off that didn't take right away instea dof waitign and waitign to see if they would take.

Also, didn't realiz e that abotu the cream seed either. I se cream seed and figure that they would be albinos and not worth even worryign about sowing. Now I now different.

I love carnations and the othe r Dianthus species. I been growing in the Pinks, th enew ones Apple, Slice, Coconut Punch, Pomegranate Kiss and Dragon Fruit. Love the flower s, but not thrilled with the foliage on them. I would lov e to see soem of the varigation on them in a Carnation.

I didn't realiz e the plant file s for Dianthus didn't have alot of pics. Gonna have to take pic s this spring and uploa d them to add to collections.


I used to us e brushes too. I have foudn that if I need a brush I make sure I get a good oen with hors e hair and yep it too easy for cross contamination. Now I have found in liek the Dollar storee s they sell q tips thatare skinnier and smaller cotton head s on them whoich seem to work real good. I liek ussign them, cuz even when I dabbing my Daylilies I usually end up with pollen all over my hands instea d of the plants then I got little bees trailign me all over.

To Leftwood’s point on pollen transfer, Chapter XX of Charles Willis Ward 1903 book on Carnations, which I have previously referenced in this thread, addresses the issues of transferring pollen. The beginning of Chapter XX dealing with pollination and seed production is transcribed below.

Again the issue of the Carnation flower going-to-sleep upon successful fertilization is referenced. I have noticed that in commercially marketed cut Carnations, viable pollen anthers are very few in numbers. I attributed pollen sterility to an effort by the growers to limit the propagation of commercial Carnation cultivates but now realize that pollen sterility will also extend the shelf-life of cut Carnations and this may be the growers primary objective. In the licensing and marketing efforts for genetically engineered Carnations pollen sterility is presented as demonstration of the grower’s commitment to environmental responsibility which may in part be true but the real issue is the extension of flower shelf-life. And of concourse, pollen sterility also discourages hobbyists from gaining easy access to useful genetic material.

Unlike other flowers, the entire upper length of the Carnation stigma is a pollen receptor and not just the tip. I recall other references to the need to apply pollen over the entire length of the Carnation stigma and will have to keep that in mind this coming summer. Do the same issues apply to other members of the Dianthus genus?

Mike


The American carnation, how to grow it.
by Charles Willis Ward (1903)
http://www.archive.org/details/americancarnatio00wardrich

CHAPTER XX
Raising Carnations from Seed Cross-Breeding and Fertilizing

Perhaps the most interesting part of carnation growing, especially to the flower lover, is the production of new varieties from seed. This is accomplished by hybridization and cross-fertilization. When the grower desires to produce a new variety, plants are selected which seem to combine the greatest number of characteristics to be perpetuated or increased.

If a large flower, of a beautiful pink color, upon a free habit is sought, plants whose combined characteristics will equal or approximate those wanted are chosen. For instance, if there are two varieties, one of which possesses the ideal habit and a flower of the ideal size, form and shape, but lacking in color, and the other variety, while deficient in some of the above characteristics possesses the desired color, the flower of the variety having the wished-for habit, form and size will be fertilized with pollen from the variety possessing the color wanted. The result may be that a variety will be produced which not only combines the habit, size, form and freedom of bloom sought, but the ideal color as well, and in many instances improvements in all those points.

The operator's tools are few, indeed. A pair of tweezers, a pocket microscope, a few tight-stoppered glass phials in which to preserve pollen, and a delicate camel's hair brush comprise the list, and frequently the latter is dispensed with, the tweezers alone being relied upon to transfer the pollen to the pistils.

The operation of pollinating the flower is very simple. It consists of applying the pollen, when it is in the right condition, to the stigma of the flower desired to be pollinated, at the proper time. The only way to learn at which time this should be done is by practical experiment. The pollen is produced upon the anthers. As these anthers burst, the pollen is released in the form of a dry powder, and when in this condition it should be applied. While the pollen will stand for a considerable time and retain its vitality, the best results are obtained if it is used as soon after ripening as possible. Tiny, hair-like growths standing along the entire length of the upper surface of the stigma will be noted. When these hair-like growths are well developed, and especially when they assume a transparent appearance and seem to be covered with tiny dew drops, the stigma is ready for pollination. The operation should be done just as soon as the stigma is in condition; otherwise some foreign pollen may alight thereon and the flower be pollinated before the pollen desired to be applied has had time to act.

Fertilization takes place with the germination of the pollen, which sends very minute root-like growths down and makes connection with the ovules. As soon as these growths reach the ovules they commence to swell, the petals of the flower wither, and the bloom closes up, or "goes to sleep," as the florist expresses it, and fertilization is complete. In the illustration on page 196, A shows the flower closing up immediately after fertilization; B the seed pod swelling after fertilization, and C the ripened pod. It takes from six to eight, and sometimes ten weeks after the flower is fertilized before the seeds are ripened. This ripened condition will be indicated by the pods shriveling up and turning brown on top. The seed pods must be watched and not allowed to stand too long before they are gathered, as sometimes the pods burst open, scattering the seed, and it is lost; but it should be gathered as soon as thoroughly ripe.

The stem should be broken off about four inches in length, and the pod and stem placed together in an envelope and put in a dry place, to remain until thoroughly cured, after which the pods should be broken open and the seed cleaned and placed in small envelopes, upon which the name of the cross, the date on which it was made, and the time the seed was gathered, should be plainly written.

The best time of the year to pollinate carnations is either in the months of October or November, or in January or February and early March. As a rule, I have secured a greater number of good varieties from flowers that were pollinated in October or November than from those which were pollinated in the spring. Possibly, the reason is that in the fall months there is less pollen floating about in the air, and the hybridizing is not interfered with by foreign pollen being introduced to the pistil. If the blooms were protected by gauze covers both before and after pollination, it might insure better results during the spring months.

We aim to sow as much of our carnation seed as is ripened by the 1st of February. A second sowing is made on the 1st of March, and a third sowing about the 1st of April. Seeds which do not ripen by the 1st of April are not then sown, but carried over and sown in February of the following year.

The seeds are sown in shallow flats, not more than an inch and a half to two inches in depth, or in shallow fern pans. These flats, or pans, have sufficient drainage so that the soil will not become sour. The soil should be of a light, friable nature, but with sufficient body to hold the proper degree of moisture; it should be thoroughly sifted, and the flats filled evenly and firmed. Shallow drills, one and a half inches apart and an eighth of an inch deep, are made by pressing a slat about a quarter of an inch wide into the soil. The seed is sown in the drills at a distance of half an inch apart and covered with not to exceed an eighth of an inch of fine soil. The surface of the soil is then moistened with a fine spray, and the flats are placed in a light house, where the temperature is about 56 to 60 degrees at night. The soil is kept moistened by spraying with a fine spray, and if during the intense heat of bright days the sun dries out the soil too fast, shading with thin paper should be afforded, to be removed as soon as the power of the sun decreases.

In a week or ten days the young seedlings will commence to push out of the soil, at which time great care must be exercised that they be neither allowed to wither by having too little water, nor caused to damp off by being watered too much.

No rule for watering can be given, but the proper time to apply it and the supply to be afforded must be noted by observation. As soon as the young seedlings have made three or four leaves they are pricked off into similar flats (which are filled with soil of the same character as before mentioned) in rows one and a half to two inches apart, and one inch apart in the row, where they are allowed to grow until about two inches in height, when they will begin to crowd and must be removed from the flats and potted up.

One and three-quarters to two inch pots should be used; and the same kind of soil that is employed in potting cuttings is suitable for seedlings. As soon as these seedlings have thoroughly filled the pots with roots, and if the conditions are not such that they can be planted out at once, they should be shifted into two and a half inch pots.

The care of the seedlings from the time they are shifted is similar to that given any young carnation plant. Seedlings from early-sown seed are usually planted out not later than the 1st to the loth of May, but those from seed sown the 1st of April will not be ready to plant out much before the 1st of June.

A good method is to plant the seedlings in the field in the same manner as is done with carnation plants grown from cuttings. The care is similar during the summer months, excepting stopping or cutting back. In the case of seedlings, the first, or central shoot (which might be called the crown shoot), is cut back, and the laterals allowed to grow and flower; while with plants for winter blooming, all shoots are cut back during the growing season.

About the 1st of August the first blooms will commence to open, and then begins the task of selecting such plants as the grower deems worthy of cultivating under glass for what is known as the first year's trial. The selection of such plants is purely a matter of judgment on the part of the grower, who will naturally choose those varieties in which he sees the most promise.

As soon as a plant has been determined upon for trial, it should be marked with a label, upon which the cross number (which will identify it with the record kept of the cross) should be placed. Plants selected for trial should be lifted and planted inside, the same as plants grown from cuttings, with the exception that seedling plants, being considerably more vigorous, should be given more room on the bench. Rows twelve inches apart, and plants ten to twelve inches apart in the row, will afford none too much growing space.

I too, thought it was interesting about how quickly a pollinated flower's petals will sennece. Most flowers will take longer to show. Actually though, I am glad all aren't like that. Think of how short the duration of flowers would be!

Unlike other flowers, the entire upper length of the Carnation stigma is a pollen receptor and not just the tip.
Yet another point for the q-tip. Still, those hairs along the pistil length are fine an delicate also.

Thanks for the good reads!

In 1945 the estate of William Sim was granted a Plant Patent (PP669) for a red Carnation know as the William Sim Carnation.
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=4vlyAAAAEBAJ

There were two characteristics of this Carnation which are of interest to our discussion.

1. Longevity.—Flowers last longer when cut than any red variety known to me.
2. Stamens.—White; few; ragged and without anthers.

Backtracking from this patent we find Plant Patent PP24 which was issued in 1932 to William Sim and was one of the earliest plant patents awarded by the United States.
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=fBRtAAAAEBAJ

This is really a patent for two plants, one of which was pollen sterile and the other pollen fertile. Today this would be a genetic process patent describing the behavior of a gene. As the patent is short, here it is in its entirety with the interesting sections italicized.

WILLIAM SIM, OF SAUGUS, MASSACHUSETTS
VARIETY OF PLANT
Application filed January 28, 1931. Serial No. 511,885.

This invention relates to flowering plants, more particularly known as carnations. It has for its objects to create a new and improved variety of carnation; to provide a carnation of novel coloring and vigor; to insure a carnation of increased strength and stronger constitution than has heretofore been known; to provide in carnations a greater endurance and prolonged useful existence after cutting, to insure a continuing stage of beauty and perfection over a greater period of time than has been heretofore known; to increase the useable life of carnations after cutting; to provide a healthy free flowering, upright growing plant producing carnations of a bronzy yellow suffused with pink and having a white edge, and to provide the various other advantages and results made evident from the following specification.

I have accomplished the objects of my invention in this specific instance by crossing so called two unnamed seedlings. That is to say, two distinct unnamed seeds were first planted and allowed to mature in plant form to the flowering stage at which point they represented two distinct varieties of carnations, one only of which was pollen bearing. In event both of the varieties should develop as pollen bearing, the pollen on one must be carefully removed before self fertilization results. At the full bloom stage, the pollen from the pollen bearing variety was transferred by tweezers or other suitable method to the variety without pollen. The resulting seed pod on the variety to which the pollen was transferred was then allowed to mature, and when ripe was sowed or planted. These seed in turn grew and developed into the new variety of carnation herein described.

The drawings represent a characterization of the new variety of carnation herein set forth and described. The commercial production of my new and improved variety requires a period of five years for observation and development of quantity cuttings.

Having thus described my invention, I claim as new and desire to secure by Letters Patent of the United States of America:—
A carnation as shown and described, characterized by a bronzy yellow color suffused with pink and with a white edge. In testimony whereof I affix my signature.
William Sim

By 1965 the term White Sim Carnation is referenced in Plant Patent (PP2660) to identify a White Carnations with Sim’s mutation for Carnations without anthers.
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=qF90AAAAEBAJ

Apparently the White Sim Carnation has been a popular plant for genetics research for many years. Another Carnation in this category is the Sandra Carnation the flowers of which are reported to last twice as long as the White Sim.

What this shows us is that in the cut flower trade; pollen sterile cultivars have been in used for over sixty years to extend the shelf-life of cut Carnations. So that does this mean for the hobbyists? As William Sim’s first patent clearly indicates, pollen sterility is a dominant trait and may be an interesting tool in any future breeding strategies for the hobbyists. I strongly suspect that any pollen sterile Carnation is only carrying one gene for this trait as there would be no pollen donor otherwise.

Your mission if you accept it is to start dissecting any Carnations you receive for the coming holidays and report your findings to DG!

Mike

To Leftwood’s concern about the use of a Q-tip, the following 1912 book by Laurence J Cook indicates that the hairs on the stigma can be injured if the pollen is not applied with care and in the direction that the hairs are aligned.

In the attached text, English spelling have not been changed and the text which is relevant to the application of pollen is italicized. I wonder how much of this can be applied to related Dianthus species?

The fact that Carnation flowers “go-to-sleep” right after successful fertilization occurs could be an indication of an interesting survival adaptation. If at some point during their evolutionary history the ancestors of Carnations were dependent of a pollinator which was in short supply it would have been to the plant’s advantage to discourage pollinators from visiting flowers which had already been successfully fertilized. Is the same behavior observed in other Dianthus species and if so which ones?

Mike

Perpetual carnations; a complete manual, with all details of cultivation
by Laurence J Cook (1912)
http://www.archive.org/details/perpetualcarnati00cookuoft

CHAPTER V
RAISING NEW VARIETIES FROM SEED

Perpetual Flowering Carnations receive plenty of attention in this direction, more perhaps than they deserve, and, enthusiastic grower as I am of Perpetual Flowering Carnations, so far as the ordinary grower is concerned I can never see the return for one's time and trouble in raising them from seed. The fond parent thinks there is no child like his own, and there is some excuse for him; but one seldom meets the raiser of Carnations with any sort of modesty in connection with varieties of his own raising. One is expected to admire anything and everything in this way that grows well and throws a flower of any size, and no matter how poor the habit of plant, how worthless the calyx, or how devoid of perfume the blooms may be, some good point is found for the new aspirant to fame, which is often boomed until sad experience consigns it to the dust-heap.

To the raiser of new Carnations I would say, do not attempt to name one of your seedlings unless it will pass muster among others of similar colouring. Is it distinct? If distinct, has it a real perpetual and free-flowering habit? If not distinct, is it an improvement on the best variety of its colour, and, above all, in habit of growth, in size, and fragrance of flower? If any two of the above queries can be answered in the affirmative, by all means grow the seedling for another year. It may even improve, but do not be disappointed if, as is more likely to be the case, it deteriorates and proves to be worthless.

My first attempt at crossing varieties of Carnations was with the Malmaison and Perpetual varieties. Malmaisons were at the zenith of their popularity, and we wanted a perpetual flowering "Princess of Wales." That was in 1901, but to-day the real perpetual flowering "Princess of Wales" does not exist. Of course, pollen from a Malmaison is difficult to obtain, and many a time, on an ideal day for the purpose, have I walked round the Malmaison house without securing so much as one anther bearing pollen. Malmaison pollen can, of course, be obtained, but chiefly in the smaller blooms and those of moderate size.

The varieties of Perpetual Flowering Malmaisons in commerce now are not numerous. The first one of this class, Marmion, is a fine flower, but not easy of cultivation ; the second, Lady Nield, is almost identical with Marmion in flower, but of better growth. Mrs. C. F. Raphael and Princess Juliana, the orange- flame coloured variety, are both good and really perpetual.

Pollination and Cross-fertilisation. — In attempting to appraise the value of Perpetual Flowering Carnations, one should first consider the habit of growth. Good colour, scent, and form we have already in existing sorts of Perpetual Flowering Carnations, and especially in “border" varieties; so that, to my mind, unless we have something unique in colour, in size, or in perfume, or there is exceptionally good growth, a new variety is worthless. If a new variety does not produces good flowers and plenty of them long before Christmas, it cannot rank as a first-class Perpetual Carnation.

In selecting two varieties to cross or hybridise, it is well to have a definite point in view. Carnations are not easy to cross by rule of thumb; they give more erratic results than any plant with which I am acquainted. Mendel's law can be proved and quickly refuted by the results — like seldom produces like to any extent. The seed parent will, however, most likely chiefly influence the habit of growth, whereas the pollen parent probably will control the colour and form of flower of the seedling. If, for example, one selects a variety of certain colour, but of poor habit, and conveys pollen from this to a variety of good habit, such as Lady Alington, the result should give at least some plants of the desired colour and an improved habit of growth. If the organs of a flower are examined, one finds stigma (a), surrounded by the anthers bearing pollen masses (bb) carried on the stamens (ff), as shown on the accompanying illustration (Fig. 7). The pollen masses are in condition for manipulation when they present a dusty or powdery appearance. The stigma is in condition when it is observed — preferably by means of a lens — to have a fresh, "dewy," or minute hair-like appearance (c).

Pull out a few petals, as shown in the flower on the left of the picture, and remove the anthers or pollen masses of the flower to be operated upon while the flower is young, not when it is fully developed. Convey the pollen (b) to the stigma (a) by means of a camel-hair brush or pointed piece of blotting paper, placing it on the stigma in the same direction as the minute hairs incline, so as not to injure the hairs by rubbing them the wrong way. The utmost care must be taken to observe this point as, if injured, the stigma will not "take" the pollen and convey it through the style (e) to the ovary (d), where seeds are formed. As soon as the pollen has "taken," the flower withers and dies. The plant may then be placed in a dry situation, so that no moisture falls on the seed pod. The pod gradually becomes brown, but should not be gathered for several weeks, until, in fact, it looks dry and inclined to crack. The flower to be operated upon should appear as in No. 1. Nos. 2 and 3 are dismembered to show the various organs more clearly.

I just wanted to mention that I sent the following note to the Administration regarding the creation of a new Carnation and Dianthus Forum:

I'm writing you to add my support to the creation of a new forum for the discussion of Dianthus and Carnations. I have grown many types of Dianthus in the years I've been gardening and am surprised to see the explosion of new and improved varieties over the last few years. I would never think to go to the Cottage Gardening forum to learn about these new additions. Since Dianthus are so easy to grow from seed, and do well in a large range of zones, there should be many members at Dave's who would be interested in sharing their knowledge about both Dianthus and Carnations. A new forum devoted to these plants would make it much easier to post and find posts about and for both the Dainthus and Carnation fans out there. If it doesn't have the support that you feel it should after a period of time, then it could be discontinued and absorbed by another forum. Just my opinion,

Linda Abert




I also wanted to say how much I'm enjoying these posts so far, and that I am learning from them. I've grown several different varieties of Dianthus through the years. I look forward to adding new varieties to my perennial beds, as well as starting my own Carnations from seed. I've started Winter Sowing and found that I enjoy growing plants from seed every year. There's so much to learn about perennials and I enjoy the challenge.

I'd love to see a list of everyone's favorite Dianthus, and what exactly makes it a favorite for you.

Linda

Good Morning Everyone,
I thank you Mike for inviting me. I am here to show my support and cast my vote. Linda you (Igrowinpa) you said it all so perfectly can we copy your letter to admin?

I too am enjoying the post and am getting ready for winter sowing . Yes Dianthus are on my list!!
Robin

For the Dianthus species enthusiasts there is an 1889 book in Archive.org on the Dianthus genus. Don’t let the title scare you, “most” the book is written in the Queen’s English. The book contains 23 numbered pages and references 231 Dianthus species providing us with a snapshot of the classification of the Dianthus genus circa 1889.

Enumeratio specierum varietatumque generis Dianthus (1889)
by Frederic Newton Williams (1862-1923)
http://www.archive.org/details/enumeratiospecie00williala

The free book is available in several formats including full OCR to text. If you have any technical questions about extracting content and upgrading to a modern publication format, send me a D-mail and I will try to provide answers. If you want to add this book to you permanent library I would recommend that you download the DjVu format and install the DjVu reader. There are other formats available but this week I like Djvu.

Frederic Newton Williams published a number of books on plants including Dianthus and “Pinks”. Here is a list from which I will try to identify online copies with free access.
http://books.google.com/books?as_q=&num=100&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&lr=&as_vt=&as_auth=Frederic+Newton+Williams

Mike

I support any motion to create a forum to talk about any flower (helps that in this case I like dianthus and have 11 varities in my own garden). I agree there should be a Dianthus forum!

Michael,
I am pleased to see the enthusiasm for Dianthus cultivars on this thread. They have been longtime favorites of mine, and I would like to add some to my garden.

The Blochy patterns and Picotees are Beautiful! Best of all, some of them are Fragrant. I have on my desk a photo copy of an article from an English Horticultural Society publication "The Garden". If any of you subscribe, it is in the June 2009 magazine.

It seems that I find more about the the new varieties in the English Garden publications and that the varieties they talk about are difficult to find in the US. I hope to see a growing popularity in the US and more varieties available here.

Thanks for posting all these great links. I am getting ready to start some seeds and I'll be checking those cultural links for tips.

Please keep this Forum going, Dianthus is a very beautiful plant group.

My husband absolutly loves Dianthus ... They seem to last all year round here ... we bought several last year to put on a kitty that passed on's grave ... took the hubby to lowe's and he fell in love with dianthus. I have always loved carnations ... I have a 'red hot' carnation I bought on clearence a few years back, a Proven winners one and its still alive ... I don't know a ton about either of these plants but have fallen in love with them ... My local lowe's has Dianthus on clearence right now for .40 to 1.00 cents per planter. I don't see to many of the carnation variety around here though.
*****I would love to definitly see the forums evolve and some co-ops happen. :D ***

Happy Gardening everyone :D

B.

Robin, definitely copy away and send a note to the Dave's Administrator. Change a few words around though, and they might not know it was a copy!!!!

Seriously, I do hope we can get this new forum started. I agree that there are new varieties in the Dianthus family showing up on seed selling sites, as well as seed and plant cataloges, and the local greenhouses. Many of these plants deserve to be new members of our perennial beds. And since experience is the best teacher, we can learn much from other members of Dave's Garden who have tried these plants.

I like the idea that many plants of the Dianthus Family can be easily started from seed. Winter Sowing has worked great on many of the plants I have. I've grown Siberian Blues, Dianthus Knappi, and Rainbow Loveliness from seed successfully. The smaller size of many of the plants make them the perfect "tuck me" perennials - you can tuck them here and there in the perennial bed, even if you don't have a lot of free space.

Linda

Thank you Linda!! I think it is ok if they know.....Ill just be sure I use my name on the signature line. It is a great clear spoken and direct letter.
Robin

i think it's a wonderful idea to bring this most beautiful flower and plant to the forefront. i would seek this forum for anything on the caryophyllus variety. if i got to know some other ones i might like them too. the caryophyllus can take drought and poor clay soil. but drainage was good.

do carnations and esp. caryophyllus like good drainage? are they short lived perennials? can they be divided at the roots or how does one propagate other than seeds?

so some of you here are just beginning to hybridize? sounds like fun. i wish you success.

hi michael
i grow some dianthus every year...love the fragrance and the flower
dianthus forum would be wonderful

pam sue

Let me ask you this: what types of questions do you envision would sustain the forum?

If the majority of the conversation would focus on cultivars (old or new), the best place to store that type of information is in a PlantFiles entry - that way it can always be found, long after the person who contributed it has moved on to other things.

If a lot of the questions are "what is my plant's variety or species," we have a Plant ID forum for that very purpose, and those threads would likely be moved there anyway.

If the questions are about soil or growing conditions...once those are asked and answered, would there be anything else to keep a forum active and thriving?

I'm not saying there isn't a need, but to be honest, most plant-specific forums are underused. A few are very active, because the plants are tremendously popular (Clematis, Roses, Hostas, Iris, African Violets, and a handful of others.)

For most other plants, the discussion threads would lend themselves to the perennials, annuals, tropicals, or houseplants forums (which are not over-taxed with threads); and ID threads going to the ID forum, and photos and cultivar-specific observations going to the correct PlantFiles entries...

Just a thought: if you have questions, feel free to start some threads in an existing forum (not the DG forum though ;o) and see what happens. If you put all your "eggs" in this one basket (err, thread), which is meant to gauge interest from DG members, not to warehouse all the known information about the genus, you--and we--won't really know if there's enough conversation to sustain a forum or not.

If the threads take hold, and lead to many other threads on the subject, they can all be moved to a new forum when sustained interest is demonstrated.

Terry,

From the responses I received, many members were looking for a forum which would address the Dianthus genus just as the forums for Hibiscus, Iris or Daylilies do. Currently DG Gardening Forums are only two levels deep; there are forums and under these forums there are user created threads. For example suppose we started a “Dianthus Genus” thread under the “Rock and Alpine Gardening” Forum. All of the posts would have to be under that thread. Now suppose we wanted to create two sub-forums “Carnations” and “Pinks”; those sub-forums would have to be new threads under “Rock and Alpine Gardening” and not under the parent “Dianthus Genus” thread. If we started doing this, very quickly the focus on Dianthus would be lost and we would have a number of poorly crossed reference threads under “Rock and Alpine Gardening”.

Yes we could create “Sticky” threads with links to simulate a multilevel structure on a two level hierarchy but then someone (yourself in several cases) has to maintain the links which I am sure is no easy task.

The real solution would be a true multi-level forum structure such as is available in Simple Machine Forum (http://www.simplemachines.org/) but that would be a total system conversion and far beyond the scope of this discussion.

I agree with you on the use of the PlantFiles to store data but we also need a public space for the DG user community to exchange ideas and that should be a multi-level Forum. If there are too many technical issues with expanding the Gardening Forums the best solution may be to do nothing at this time. Unlike our fellow gardeners in England and Europe, Dianthus Special Interest Groups in North America appear to have suffered untimely ends and we don’t need another aborted effort. If you go into any flower shop in North America you will find cut Carnations in abundance but few of these flowers are grown in North America. We have outsourced too much!

The conundrum we face is that if we can’t create a viable forum which is easy to use, we can’t prove the need for such a forum. If we don’t build it no one will come!

Mike

It's important to keep in mind the purpose of a forum...it is simply a venue to host a conversation. Kind of like opening up your living room for a party; people come in, sit or stand around, talk...move to a different room, even rejoin the conversation later, even though it's taken many twists and turns since they last participated in it.

Most discussions are casual and (like real life) are pretty ephemeral - here today, gone tomorrow, at least as far as those "chatting" are concerned. In the case of a virtual conversation, a record of it remains, but the conversation isn't necessarily updated/maintained on an ongoing basis.

A thread may be cut-and-dried: a question is asked-and-answered in a couple posts. Or it may run on for dozens of posts...some threads become "serial" threads, and continue with subsequent threads on the same topic.

Given that is the general expectation of threads, there's nothing that says you can't use an existing forum to ask (and answer) questions on a particular genus. If/when there are "enough" threads on a particular subject, we can see the need for it to have its own forum, and we can migrate them to a new forum.

I love Dianthus & Carnations so a forum would be great.