Proposal: Carnations (Dianthus caryophyllus) Forum

I have started growing Carnations (Dianthus caryophyllus) and was wondering if anyone else would be interested in organizing a forum on Carnations (Dianthus caryophyllus) and related Dianthus species the Dianthus Genus?

Attached is a public domain photograph from Wikipedia on the new Purple Carnation colors which are reviewed in this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnations

Update 10/27/2008

The motion has been advanced by Bluespiral that this thread be a prototype for a Dianthus Forum which I find to be an excellent suggestion. I have discussed the criteria for the creation of a new forum with one of the DG administrators and it is clear that the more popular a forum topic, the greater the chances are that Dave will support the request for the creation of a new forum. As Dianthus species will hybridize it would be shortsighted to restrict the forum to just Dianthus caryophyllus as many of our modern Carnations are of mixed genetic ancestry. In reviewing the trading lists it is clear that interest in the genius Dianthus is four to five times greater than the interest in the Dianthus caryophyllus alone. As I control the first post in this thread the motion by Bluespiral is accepted and the forum name is officially changed to The Dianthus Forum. Participation is critical for the creation of a new forum so if you know a DG member who may be interested the Dianthus Genus ask they drop by to add their voice and vote to supporting the new forum. Participation is critical so let’s make this a real forum prototype.

Mike

This message was edited Oct 27, 2009 9:56 PM

michael i love these plants. i am only interested in the caryophyllus variety. i found a guy in new mexico that has lists of wholesale/retail growers. you have to send a sase to get the list. i am thinking co-op for sure. lol.

Co-op?!! I hope so, will be watching for it.

Hi Mike:
Thanks for starting this and including me in this one. I am not very educted on the carnations but love all dianthus in general. I am looking at a few new intro's next year. I will try to post more on them later this week.
Yes co-op please count me in.
Thanks Dave

the guy i am going to write is rand lee out of santa fe. anybody ever heard of him? no email just an address.

I love Carnations, when I buy then at the store they last for several weeks as long as I chance the water. I tried to grow some from seeds this spring but they didn't grow well and never bloomed, so I would like to see a forum on growing them.
Cheryl

Thanks Mamajack!

Now I understand why my searches for “Carnation Society” were unsuccessful, they are going by the name “Dianthus Society” and Rand Lee is all over the Internet.

A Dianthus Primer
By Rand B. Lee
http://www.justgardeners.com/hrsc/articles/art_dianthus.html

For a full list of dianthus seed and plant sources, wholesale or retail, send a self-addressed stamped envelope to:
Dianthus List, c/o Rand Lee,
PO Box 22232,
Santa Fe, NM, 87502-2232.

Rand B. Lee is the President of the North American Cottage Garden Society/North American Dianthus Society. He is also a contributor to major gardening magazines in the US, and is the author of "Pleasures of the Cottage Garden."

Pleasures of the Cottage Garden (Hardcover)
http://www.amazon.com/Pleasures-Cottage-Garden-Rand-Lee/dp/1567996957/

Garden Web is all over this.

The North American Dianthus Society
http://dir.gardenweb.com/directory/ads/

There are many more entries but here is Rand B. Lee’s electronic contact information:

To which Society's do we all belong?: American Dianthus Society
http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/alpines_and_bulbs/14145/134189

Rand B. Lee
The American Dianthus Society
PO Box 22232
Santa Fe, NM 87502-2232
Telephone 505-438-7038
mailto:randbear@nets.com
http://www.gardenweb.com/cyberplt/society/dianthus.html

I am going to send Rand Lee an Email requesting the list and see if he can send me an electronic copy or link which we can post here.

Mike

then i'll wait on you. this is going to be another adventure.

Mamajack,

It looks like we are going to Plan B! The two Email addresses associated with The North American Dianthus Society are both defunct as are some of the links they have posted. I did a Google search for the Dianthus seed list but other than the original postings, nothing appears to be online. I will send the letter as I have access to OCR equipment and can post the text of the returned paper document on line.

Let us hope that someone is home for the snail mail. I will keep looking for additional information.

Mike

Update

The SASE is ready to mail this morning but I don’t know if I will receive a response. Most of the information on The North American Dianthus Society is over 9 years old. Newer information is just a replication of old posts. In addition to the two Email addresses which are non-functional, the two telephone numbers have been assigned to others. A private message on Garden Web was accepted for delivery but I don’t know if anyone will read it. In short The North American Dianthus Society may be an Internet ghost. The US Postal Service will decide.

Now we know what happened to The American Carnation Society and possibly its successor The North American Dianthus Society.

Mike



This message was edited Oct 26, 2009 8:17 AM

of course it couldn't be easy. good luck and hope you hear something soon. i just bought some caryophyllus from bluestone. the ones that are peachy and double and smell like cloves. had them before. the plant i had lived for years then one year just didn't return. they are hard to find though.

http://www.cfpc.com/flowers_general.information.html

here's a place that has them.

I've grown many many Dianthus from seed. And this was my favorite http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/84952/. I'm currently on the HUNT for King Of Black's. I gave all my seeds away now can't find a source for them.

Would love a forum

T& M seeds has the seed for the Giant Chabaud mix. 200 seeds for 2.95. They also have the Stripes and Picotees 80 seeds for 3.95 and they have the double peach. Think that like only 14 seed for 4.95 which ain't too ba d really.

Forget the name of the Peach one. It on their online catalog. I just bought me a bunch yesterday.

There also a woman you have to keep checking on and off that sells Carnation seed on ebay. I don't remmebr what her name is. She is from California that I know and I just search Carnation seed all the tiem on ebay and when she has soem for sale I buy them. When she has it she has a beautiful yellow too.

Kim... Here ya go

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=carnation+seeds&tag=googhydr-20&index=garden&hvadid=3136613445&ref=pd_sl_3otvhfamj_b

I've never bought anythign on Amazon.com before so not sur e how it works, but there your King of Black seeds.

Here another one:

http://www.seeds-by-size.co.uk/carnation98.html

I think I still have a bunch of the grenadin seed. Will check when I get a chance adn if somebody wants a few seeds of them dmail me and wil send ya some.

Been too long and would have to try adn figrue out how to buy from seeds-by-size again, but not sure where to post, but there sevral kinds I would liek to get and maybe if there enough of us, could figrue otu how to split some packs up.

Thanks much! I shop Amazon but not for seeds. I'll have to give it a try..

Kim_M,

eBay has a listing for King of the Blacks seeds also.

King of the Blacks Carnation 50 Seed-Dianthus-Perennial
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290334742372

The eBay seller is "Seedmart" with a positive feedback of 99.2% which is not very good for eBay but for $2.99 you could take a chance. The feedback score of the Amazon seller is a disaster.

Mike

Hmmmmm Mike I just recently ordered some seeds from that seller. Aparently Seedmart is Hirts Gardens. And I'm not too hapy with them right now. Then like a dum dum I turned around and bought more seeds today! ha I really wanted them bad so I thought I'd take a chance.

But...if anyone else gets King of Blacks...share with me! I have lots of seeds I can share for spliting your pack with me. I have to see if I get my other 2 packs of seeds from them first. What they did was send the order (several different packs) and the ones which were $5.00 had a note next to the receipt "sending in 2 weeks" They got an email from me ASAP.

Kim_M,

One other point for you to consider, depending on which website you go to the King of the Blacks Carnation is shown as near black or dark red. I suspect that the dark red is the more accurate description. Here are some alternate links:

Here are some dark reds:
http://www.marketworks.com/StoreFrontProfiles/DeluxeSFItemDetail.aspx?sid=1&sfid=124287&c=103121&i=109868416
http://www.swallowtailgardenseeds.com/perennials/dianthus.html

Here are the near blacks:
http://www.prairiestarflowers.com/dianthus%20King%20of%20the%20Blacks.htm

And then we have the dark purples:
http://www.kingsseeds.co.nz/shop/Flowers/By+Colour/Black/Dianthus+Carnation+King+of+the+Blacks.html

I have absolutely no idea as to which is the real “King of the Blacks” but would love the see a photograph which was not photo shopped.

Mike

Kim_M,

Try this Google image search:
http://images.google.com/images?um=1&q=King+of+the+Blacks+Carnation

All of the black carnation pictures are identical and is not real photographs. The dark red photographs have a few different images which makes them a little more convincing. Then there is the dark purple carnation from King Seeds in New Zeeland which is a partial photograph.
http://www.kingsseeds.co.nz/shop/Flowers/By+Colour/Black/Dianthus+Carnation+King+of+the+Blacks.html

I next did a Google image searched on “Black Carnations” and found the genetically modified purple-black carnations by Florigene:
http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&sa=1&q=Black+Carnation

I am starting to question the existence of the King of the Blacks Carnation.

Mike

Mike.. You probably right, since purple is not a natural color I doubt the black is too. Deep, deep red that looks like blackis probably right espcially since it a Grenadin.

Kim... If ya don't get your seed let me know. I don't have any right now, but have foudnwhere I cna get some if worse coems to worse.

I want the purples. How I love purples.

Ok, now I confused cuz I thought King of Blacks was a black or red so dark as to be black, but the new Zealand site says it a dark purple. So which is the right color????????

Guess you thinkign the same thing as me Mike as we postign same time, cuz if King of Blacks is purple, I gonan get me a whole bunch. I don't want black.

Actully I'm looking for the King of Blacks I had many years ago. It is a very deep burgundy. And was actually sirprised when I started seeing the websites that showing them as a black. I'm not really interested in that color. So I never even had that color in mind until recently when I was shopping the web..I thought HUH??? King of Blacks is very dark but not black...

Ummmm purple is nice...lol

Mike what kind of Dianthus are you interested in? Have you ever grown the yellows? I grew them many years ago...along with others. I actually have a seed drawer with Dianthus and different species.

We should move over to the perennial forum and chat there. I don't have a bunch of seed left but have about 17 differnt varietie s of Dianthus sp. seed and have to check and see all what kinds of Carnation one s I have.

Kim.. Well that at least good to know. The pics I have seen of King of Blacks are all black looking.

Hi All,

This is a wonderful idea. May I put in my two cents to broaden the forum to the entire genus of Dianthus? The North American Rock Garden Society ( http://www.nargs.org/ ) has a seedlist that changes every year, but they always have oodles of different species and cultivars belonging to dianthus. Who could stop at just one species once they learn of the incredible variety out there? It's not too late to join NARGS in order to participate in their seed exchange for this year. Their seed list for 2009 will be published on the internet on 12/15. I hope you check it out.

I have found Louise Beebe Wilder's The Fragrant Path to be especially helpful for listing and describing which dianthus species are especially fragrant.

NARGS specializes in rock garden and alpine plants. But, having said that, they do carry seed for plants for just about any habitat imaginable on earth - not to mention many plants ideal for the cottage garden.

Currently, I have two seedling volunteers descended from 'Agatha' and 'Bath's Pink' that have colonized the length of a 20' stone wall and cascade down for a couple of feet. In the clay soil and summer humidity of Maryland, this was quite a surprise, but if I don't plant dianthus species over a stone wall or in a mulch or collar of gritty sand and gravel, dianthus species turn to mush in my garden.

I hope this forum takes off - it would be wonderful to bring back some of the old, seldom-planted species again. They are wonderful in front of iris or roses.

Karen

ps - Star, a couple other forums that would overlap a dianthus forum would be the DG Rock and Alpine Gardening (there have been more threads and posts in the R&A forum than in the Perennial Forum on dianthus sp.) and the Cottage Garden Forum (there are many varieties of dianthus that are not really alpines, but larger, cottage garden size plants - like carnations for one. Plus there's a romance surrounding dianthus that the CG forum might do better justice to, than the perennial forum). I hope I don't sound contrary - not intended.

Blue.. Cool. on everything. I didn't even know abotu a rock and alphine forum.

Ther e is so many types and varieties and it not easy to keep track of soem of them as tto which group they actually belong in.

The following is a list of reference materials I am using to learn about the care and propagation of Carnations. The first article by Jojo Sigurgeirson has some very interesting tips of Carnation culture including the use of cactus potting soil which I am currently testing for the propagation of cuttings. The 'King of the Blacks' is discussed in this article.

Carnation Reading List

Carnations in Tarnation
http://www.suite101.com/print_article.cfm/perennials/27889

Cultivating Carnation Cuttings
http://www.profitfrog.com/profitable-hobbies-articles/carnation-cultivation.htm

Carnations—Two-Way Cash Crop
http://www.profitfrog.com/profitable-hobbies-articles/carnation-plant-growing.htm

The American carnation, how to grow it .. (1903)
http://www.archive.org/details/americancarnatio00wardrich

American carnation culture. The evolution of Dianthus caryophyllus semperflorens. Origin, history, classifications, varieties, propagations, diseases, remedies, care, culture and commercial importance (1901)
http://www.archive.org/details/americancarnatio00lambrich

For additional out-of-copyright books on Carnations in www.Archive.org, reference the following search.
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=carnations%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts

Many of the books in Archive.org are in the DjVu format which allows you to read historic books in their original format. For historic documents I would recommend DjVu over PDF which is also available in www.Archive.org. You can down load the DjVu software here: http://www.djvu.org/resources/. I would recommend that you download the DjVu documents to your disk drive and read them locally as you will have better control as to how you view the books.

Mike

This message was edited Oct 28, 2009 4:26 AM

Another thing to keep in mind that the best way to showcase your Dianthus varieties, post notes and observations on how well (or poorly) they grow in your environment, etc.), is through PlantFiles. We have just over 300 entries in the Dianthus genus: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/adv_search.php?searcher[common]=&searcher[family]=&searcher[genus]=Dianthus&searcher[species]=&searcher[cultivar]=&searcher[hybridizer]=&searcher[grex]=&search_prefs[blank_cultivar]=&search_prefs[sort_by]=rating&images_prefs=both&Search=Search

Just about half of the current listings have no photos: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/adv_search.php?searcher[common]=&searcher[family]=&searcher[genus]=Dianthus&searcher[species]=&searcher[cultivar]=&searcher[hybridizer]=&searcher[grex]=&search_prefs[blank_cultivar]=&search_prefs[sort_by]=rating&images_prefs=without&Search=Search - adding photos is a great way to share what you know with others and increase the exposure for this genus.

The other half of the entries could undoubtedly benefit from adding more photos along with details, notes, ZIP codes and photos. And there are probably a lot more entries that could be added.

If you've read books on Dianthus and carnations, please share your thoughts on them in the Garden Bookworm: http://davesgarden.com/products/gbw/

Terry,

Thank your for the suggestion on the Garden Bookworm. I just checked and my private list of resources for Carnations and Dianthus is more extensive than what is in the Garden Bookworm, so I will endeavor to add my reading list to Garden Bookworm. I see one problem; a lot of my material in online and in many cases is free. I don’t see a way to add links for online materials. I also have tools list (i.e. DjVu, PDF, etc.) which should be documented (Garden Tools?). In addition to books there are also research papers, some of which are free and others of which are green-walled. Let’s takes this discussion off line but first let me see what problems I run into adding a few electronic documents to the Garden Bookworm.

Mike

mike, the Bookworm is for printed volumes only. If we are missing some, please do add them (if you need help figuring out how to search for existing books first, please let us know.)

You can start a thread with links to resources that are helpful (but most helpful is culling through them and identifying the MOST useful, stable and helpful ones, rather than creating a laundry list of everything - especially if some of them are redundant or are on a shaky platform (i.e., hosted on small, free websites that may disappear overnight, etc.)

Terry,

Most of the historic high quality material is in Archive.org or Books.Google.com and they should outlive even DavesGarden.com. Where would the best place to start such a discussion on electronic gardening resources? Many of the websites which disappear are still recorded in the Wayback Machine in Archive.org so even those materials can be recovered in most cases. Another possibility is if we find a good author, such a Jojo Sigurgeirson whom I reference above, an effort should be made to have them post their material on DG.

Mike

I just wanted to add my name to the list of Dianthus Forum. My soil is very good for Dianthus growing. Donna

Michael, I'd pick one of the forums suggested:

Perennials
Rock & Alpine
Cottage Gardening

Any of those would be an appropriate venue for a resource thread on Dianthus ;o)

Outstanding resources, Mike - thank you!

Terry, I have found so many old, classic, wonderful, out-of-print books relating to gardening that are now free and on-line. I, too, would love to see a DG feature for this kind of book or reference that parallels the existing DG Bookworm. I've sprinkled some of these around DG in various forums, but it would be great to have a spot on DG where we can find them as easily as we can find the Bookworm for printed books.

Whatever happens with regard to where this thread winds up, it already is a great resource thread for the genus Dianthus. Could we make this thread a sticky? I'll go along with whatever forum in which it eventually finds a home. Of course, my vote goes to the Cottage Garden forum since that is a style that lends itself to troughs and pots and rock gardens for the teensy ones, but also encompasses garden walks edged in medium sized ones, as well as sweeps of naturalized thuggier ones like sweet williams (One of my favorite pictures is of an abandoned homestead in the Blue Ridge mountains, where sweet wiliam has naturalized all over the yard around the ruin.)

Who knows - if enough folks show interest...?

Karen

Karen, out of print books can be added to the bookworm - they just have to have an ISBN to link them to Amazon ;o)

but how about the wonderful, long-ago books with no ISB number? I'll bet we could probably find some digital worm-eaten manuscripts and water-logged scrolls (restored) if we put our minds to it, too, that have survived visicitudes of time. For instance, dianthus was one of the major flowers portrayed in Asian scrolls, silk screens, woodcuts, ceramics, etc. for many centuries - over all that time, this flower became heavily layered with fascinating symbolism. I would consider this type of thing a useful reference material, too.

Karen

I love Dianthus and have many, many, many in my garden. I think it would be wonderful to have an area here on the Web site to talk about them.