Saving the Co-op forum

I have to laugh at myself as well as the rest of us. Dave cut this off a couple of days ago and we are still yakkin'. Oh well, I guess chatter is good for the soul.

He and the committee are setting down the ground rules so it really doesn't matter any more. We had our say before he did that. Now we wait and see what they come up with. Some we will like and I am sure some we won't but we will either accept it or not participate.

Have a good evening.

Jeanette

Uh oh ... I didn't know we weren't supposed to be posting here anymore ... sorry.

Jeannette: I guess it's the old saying "Can't please everyone, all the time."

(or however that saying goes, LOL.)

I'm glad there's a Co-Op Committee hashing things out and getting this organized. We will all adapt to the new rules and regulations and hopefully Co-Op's will run smoothly for many years to come!

LOL, I didn't mean we couldn't post. I just meant nobody was going to pay any attention. We can talk all we want.

Jeanette

Oh, ok! I thought you meant Dave had closed the thread so we shouldn't talk about it anymore, LOL!

hee hee ... I talk a lot! (and half the time no one pays attention anyway!) ^_^

Gee, back from my plantin' and showerin' and she's still talking! hee hee, just kidding!

I used to work in an office that had only 2 cubicles, mine and another lady's. She would talk to herself, out loud, all the time, and it took me a long time to get used to it. I kept yelling over to her, "what? What?" thinking she was talking to me.

Ooops, see how I get off the subject so easily? Uh, YAY Committee!

Jnette when Dave started the co-ops with Buyer beware we were to settle things with the hostess and her with us. We were no longer suppose to go to the administration. So I feel the commitee is going to be the same. But I do like the idea of an obudsman,

I was one who got 15 out of 80 something plants and only 5 have lived. The others I did not get the money was refunded.
It took time but I did recover all but the ones that were dead.
I chose not to yell about them basically because I don't think it was an on purpose thing and also because there was enough being said and strongly that I did not feel I needed to add to it. Also from what I read agristarts said that there would be so many dead and that should be taken into consideration when buying. I may not have been in that many co-ops but when plants come in dead from the vender they were always made good. Debbie canceled the rest of the order because of a reason she felt it needed to be done. I don't know if I read why but if it was in our interest it needed to be done.

I do believe there needs to be a way when there are helpers to pack unless it is an emergency they should have to stick it out till the end. I had that problem and even though I had 27 people buying and 175 plants it was awful when I had no help to wrap and box the plants. THey were not even DGers

I hope I made it somewhat clearer what I meant. Maybe it is as clear as mud. sometimes it is the best I can explain myself. :o)

Have a good night,
Sandy

Well, when Dave suspended participants in the brug forum I wasn't in on it so I don't know what was going on. To this day I'll bet a lot of the old timers never came back. Or, if they did it was maybe under a different name.

That is a forum that people just can't get along in either. Don't know what it is about it. There is no money involved like the coop.

Sandy, so what happened to the buyer beware, settling it with the hostess if you weren't satisfied? Then what? The one I was involved in, I was sent 2 plants out of 5 I paid for. Those 2 plants were sent without any wrapping on the roots. Just thrown in the box. Then they came from the east coast to Washington State via Anchorage, Alaska. So, it took almost 2 weeks to get here. I know she had a huge amount of buyers, like 70, and a huge amount of plants.

She had friends helping pack. Maybe she didn't know what they were doing. I told her, so she sent me a check, can't remember for how much, but those 2 dead plants cost me $27 in the end. I didn't get even one plant.

However, I have to say, that was the only coop I feel I got burned in. When looking at her feedback, she has nothing but good stuff in there. Mine was nothing like yours. I can't imagine buying 80 plants and not getting any.

Now, when Dave sent out his message I went to the agristart coop. That is the first I had heard of the problem BTW. I could not imagine ordering plants when being warned right off the bat that there were going to be dead plants. I suppose people figured the averages in plugs some were going to be lost.

One last word. I like the Paypal way. It is best. Either the buyer gets what he/she pays for or Paypal takes the money back and returns it to the buyer. Paypal has resolved 2 disputes for me. Both in my favor.

Jeanette

I'm seeing this view of co-ops in some of the recent posts...
quoted: "it should be the same as if you ordered from a catalog or company direct."

NO, absolutely not. There are no guarantees here, as there would be when ordering direct from most companies. Ordering through a co-op, especially with repacking and reshipping from the host to you, introduces additional risk factors. If hosts are asked to assume the total financial risk of a co-op in addition to the work of hosting, I am pretty sure nobody would ever offer to host.

If a host receives bad plants from a vendor, they usually make every effort to get the vendor to make things right with refunds or replacements... but if the vendor doesn't come through, it's not right to demand a refund from the host. Many past co-ops have not required insurance or delivery confirmation (avoiding the extra postage fee), so if a box is lost in the mail (or delayed, resulting in dead plants), then again the host is not liable. Sometimes plants simply don't survive double shipping, no matter how they are wrapped, but participants are the ones who take the risk that the plants will be sturdy and that the host will pack them adequately.

Even if you feel a bad co-op is entirely the host's fault, it is not the host's responsibility to refund the money you lost out of their own pocket.

That's what "participate at your own risk" means.

That said, the majority of co-ops go well. And hopefully the committee will be able to help set some limits and screen out potential problems.

I don't want to start a litany of past wrongs and co-ops gone bad. But please realize that the risk YOU take is a big difference between participating in a co-op and placing your own retail order.

Just want to correct one thing here. Ilovejesus said that she understood that Agristarts says" that when you order from them to expect some to arrive dead".
That is not their policy and they do not say that, and in all the years that I have ordered from them, it has never happened. I suspect that some of the plants suffered from sitting in the liner plugs for so many weeks and died from either too much or too little water etc. Plugs are not meant to sit in the liners for that length of time and alot can go wrong in that period of time-esp if the person is not an experienced grower.

I just hate to see Agristarts, who is a great company, be pulled into that fiasco. they got burnt badly in that coop.

That's a shame. Hopefully sometime in the future we'll be able to make it up to them - how, I'm not sure, as they probably won't be interested in doing any more co-ops with us if they were damaged.

IMHO, if there is a committee that gives a co-op or host their blessing, then if this host has co-op failures, the committee should be aware. I am not talking about bombarding them with hateful emails about a co-op gone bad, but if I were on the committee, for instance, and a host that I had approved did something unethical, or the vendor they were working with did, I would like to know that. then the next time I might look more closely at that host, or the chosen vendor.

I say this not to increase the grief on the committee members, but if they are delegated the responsibility of approving or not approving a co-op, vendor, or host, it would be great if they knew what the outcome was.

I do feel strongly about 'at your own risk', but I also feel strongly that people need to be weeded out of the process if they are not responsible. I also feel that PayPal is the way to go. I would never protest a payment for something that just did not work out on serendipity. But if someone does not ship plants for weeks and they die, or if they do not ship at all and just keep the $, then that is not some out-of-the-blue, unforeseeable event. Then again, I would not put big money on the line in the co-op unless I had experience with a vendor and had every confidence.

Tiger, evidently you don't order from Agristarts or you would know what I wasn't told either at the beginning. This is their written policy. When I questioned Heather about it after I got the order, she said I should have known this. When I called on the Monday following the Friday delivery, you have 48 hours to check everything. Sorry, I didn't see the little dead and empty plugs under the leaves. We only processed 360 of the plants on Sunday, so there was no way for me to check out 3000 in 48 hours. I have 7 trays of empty plugs still here that I personally refunded ya'lls money on out of my pocket because I couldn't get a refund. You will find this tidbit of info on the Agristarts.com shipping tab. I didn't check the fine print. Also, she said that every vendor knows to expect at least a loss on tissue cultures. When I asked why she didn't tell us that in the beginning, she said I should have known that. All their vendors do.

And after going thru all of the first interest thread, I guess like everyone else, I should have known that. Below are just a few of the post made regarding that very thing. The last one was from the vendor that did the agristarts co op from the year before. He, like me, had losses that he had to fill with his own order. And finally, we posted that very warning in the first post of the threads. And yet, we all ordered anyway.

Also, after calling Heather so much complaining, I received the following dmail from Agristarts Director of Marketing. You notice he recognized the problem, but he did not offer a refund or a solution either. And we rewarded them for their good service by placing yet another order from them . Amazing.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Good Afternoon Debbie,

Heather forwarded your frustrations to me & I apologize for the breakdown in communication. From the information I was given it sounds like there were many misunderstandings along the way. This transaction did not end pleasantly for either party & that is very unfortunate and not how we want to do business.

Best Regards,
Ty Strode
Director of Marketing
Agri-Starts, Inc.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ First post of the Agristarts thread stated this:

We will insist that they send us only healthy plugs. "But they are yours, no matter how they arrive to you." Jeri will post directions about their care, and if you are concerned, return to the interest thread and see the comments made on last years orders.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Below are just a few of the post made by the participants before the order thread even opened. I left off names because I don’t think that is necessary.
1.
Well...they're so cheap LOL I don't mind buying three of a kind, I can always give some to gardening friends. Plus they're starts, might lose a few before they get large and three would be insurance for me.
2.
You might actually want 3 of each to cover any loses--remember, these are slips. I lost a few from last year's co-op just because if you are as hot as we are by the time they arrive--you must "baby" them for a while. It was no fault of Agristarts, or the Co-op, or me actually. You have allow for a certain amount of loss with tissue cultured starts. I think the wholesalers count on 33% loss on slips--I'll figure out my % in a second. My losses were on the on the "fussier" plants. I lost none of my high color musa's or the really aggressive Alocasia's or Colocasia's. What I lost was Alocasia lauterbaachiana (3 of them--all of them), Alocasia 'Noblis'( 1 of these--that's all I got), and Xanthosoma lindenii "Magnificum' (2 of these died--1 lived). I bought 24 plants total, 6 died at my hands--75% success rate.
3.
Besides, they are dirt cheap its worth it to get at least one extra of what you want.

4.
actually, the less than balanced part is when they got here at my house


5.
I have to add that I only ordered one of each in last year's co-op, and I ordered a lot... I lost none of my plants. All were individually packed and marked. There were two that I was afraid were dead on arrival, but I potted them up anyway, and they also took off.
6.
Since, I used what I ordered from Agristarts in last years co-op to fill the orders of others, I'd love to be included in this. Primarily interested in Musas.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
I also noticed that several recent co ops posted the same warning in their first post and the participants are the very same people that complained on Agristarts .

COMPANY make no guarantees other than all plugs are guaranteed to be healthy and disease free at time of shipping.
Plugs will be wrapped individually to protect the roots and shipped with tags. Once shipped, plants become the total responsibility of the buyer.
That means YOU are responsible for all problems with your mail delivery handling and gardening practice
________________________________________________________________________________________


Co ops are fun and exciting and they can get away from you real quick. It is very important for us all to read the conditions of the co op Before we order.

And I, drapelady, for one am thrilled that a committee will be overseeing the co ops and that all volunteers will be on record for their commitment and companies checked out before co ops are opened to keep host from making mistakes that can ruin their reputation.

And most of the complaints came from vendors ordering huge orders and their friends. I personally don’t think vendors should order huge quantities from host that are doing the work of receiving , checking, dividing, packing and shipping their orders for free and then them turn around and make a profit on our free labor. The big orders make it too hard for the host that are trying to help the regular home gardener get a good deal. Vendors can order directly from the company themselves at the same price so why burden the co ops.


This is the link to that interest thread, just for verification of the above post , to those interested, though now it seems a mute point. You will notice I wasn’t the only hostess involved and after all of the problems with the first half of the order, no help from agristarts, realizing I was the only one packing the majority of the monster, I felt it in the interest of the participants to refund the money for the ones not shipped.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/948948/

Oh please someone take my keyboard away... I need to go get fresh air

With a thread like this, I know it's tempting to get into details, revisiting previous co-ops to discuss what went right and what went wrong...

But please, let's stay focused on more general suggestions and guidelines for the revised co-op forum.

Thanks!

Your right critter, thanks so much.

Oh, and yes, I agree, the past history of a host or a vendor with co-ops should make a difference to the committee's review of an application. That's why feedback (individual feedback for the host as well as Garden Watchdog feedback, which is limited to 1 review by the co-op host) is so important. Separate co-op feedback (anonymous or otherwise) might be helpful, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary at this point (at least not enough to ask Dave to create a separate venue for it).

drapelady-I said in my above post that I have experience buying from Agristarts...did you think that I was lying? lol I have been buying from them for at least 5 yrs. I am a commercial grower-technically a wholesale bedding plant grower and I have been doing it for almost 20 yrs. I have more than enough experience to say that Agristarts did not send you 7 plug trays worth of dead plants. Thats over 500 plants.That would be unthinkable. Lets be honest here-they died under your care as you held some of them for over 10 wks. Like I said above-plugs aren't meant to be held that long in a 72 plug liner sheet.
It wasn't my intention to get into the particulars of your coop, but you opened that door. I followed this coop from the start as I knew that you were ordering way too many. You mention that vendors should not be able to order in a coop, but you wanted them in there! I watched as you just kept adding on different types of plants, like it was no big deal. I saw where you tried to blame it on the people ordering such large amts-you said that they "made you" do it. Thats hogwash. I went back to the ordering thread and read it again, and nowhere does anyone beg and plead with you to add more plants. You were putting the new plants up there every time I looked, and saying that if there was enough orders for that type of plant, then you would get it. I believe you said "the more, the merrier" at one point in the ordering-but what ever you said, it was in that gist. When I saw how many trays you were ordering, I knew , from experience, that it was a train wreck waiting to happen. Just as I knew when you turned down Cannagirls offer to come help pack at the end, that it wasn't because, as you said " that you would have to stop and clean the house and then make them lunch" , but that you had a lot of dead and dying plants around and you didn't want anyone to see them. I guess the mindblower for me was that you answered their offers of help with denigration. You said "too little too late", like you had asked for help and everyone had ignored your requests until the last day. As it turns out-it took you another month to finish the shipping. You owed it to the coop to have taken their help. You know this, hence all goobletygook that you wrote above. All the quotes that you took the time to look up. You can say whatever you want-actions speak louder than words. You took too much on, you never asked for help when you realized that you were in over your head and you tried to make it out to be other peoples fault. All I am saying is-quit trying to blame Agristarts. They didn't send you anywhere near 500 dead plants. In all the boxes that I have gotten from them, maybe there was one missing from one tray out of the 4 trays per box. That is more than acceptable.
By the way-I agree with you totally that its not fair to the person holding the coop to have vendors buy such large amts (by these coops standards) and not pay the hostess extra for packing (or to hire someone to help with the packing). But that is up to the hostess to set the limits to what she/he can do, not blame the vendors after the coop is said and done. At the time of ordering, you were loving the amts they gave you.

Please, I know emotions run high on issues like this, but it does no good to rehash the details of a disappointing co-op on this thread.

Let's keep this discussion constructive and oriented toward the future!

Thanks.

Critter-I am just trying to keep this accurate, that is being constructive imo !

well, somebody remove the long _____ so this thing can fit on one page. :(((((

Actually, what does any of the above have to do with the subject of this thread??

I sure hope we don't start again with the same old back and forth.

=^..^=

And tiger, you know the wonderful thing.........I never have to fool with again. Isn't that great.

I quote
"never try to explain. Yours friends don't need a explanation and your enemies won't believe you anyway."

Have a good one, I'm going to play in my garden.

I'm w/ 9kitty--my screen is now sized to big due to the long dash dividers. Drapelady would you mind editing your post of those please:)

I agree, can admin close this thread now?

As a possible future vendor and the above criticism of Agristarts, I think it is important to clear up any misinformation above. I helped to pack last years agristarts co-op and of perhaps 12-14 trays, there were only a few missing or weak. Of the 9 trays of musas last month there were no dead or missing plants. I am receiving 17 trays of ee's next week and would not have ordered if I wasn't pleased with their plants

I myself wish that it will be required to leave feedback about co-op vendors and the hostess, good and bad.
This being done by either the co-op participants or the committee. Maybe it should be done anonymously because some do not wish to speak the truth when bad ones happen because they don't want retaliation or wish to hurt anyone's feelings.

I have seen that a few choose to take the " use co-ops at your own risk" to their advantage when things go wrong.
Both a Hostess and Vendor should be responsible "to a point" and do everything necessary to prevent a bad co-op.
Of course it's impossible to give a 100% guarantee due to the occasional shipping company error goes.


Also there was recently a co-op with a company that has terrible feedback on Garden watchdog but the vendor chose to conduct business with this company. It would have been nice to know ahead of time where these plants were coming from because I myself wouldn't have participated so maybe that should also be disclosed.

Good luck to the new committee and to all new co-ops to come!

From what I've seen, it seems like most of the co-op host/esses note where the plants are coming from in the first post of the interest thread, or even in the title of the thread. I agree it should be mandatory to let us know where the plants are coming from. That said, I think I read that the committee will be approving both the host/ess and vendor, so that should eliminate vendors that have bad reps.

I know this isn't the place for it, but I too, wanted to defend Agristarts. They were nothing but polite to me when I placed 2 orders this summer. Both shipments came quickly, and the plants were in excellent health. 1 shipment was the end of April and one was in June. I lost my first plant from these two shipments this week- there is not enough of me to go around in tending my plants, and I assume the responsibility for the plant dying.

I took photos of the box, the open box, the wrapped trays, the open trays, the plants, etc. I took photos of how I plant the plugs. I want to post them, probably on the tropicals list, to show how nice their plants are. Even the bottom of the box has an "Ooops! I'm upside down, please turn me over" sticker on it. When I opened the tray wrapping I literally gasped, because the plants were so healthy and green looking. I've never seen a mailed plant that didn't lose some color, but AS plants were as green as can be.

Agristarts has been in business 25 years and has an excellent reputation around the world.

Saying they ship weak or dead plants is just mean, untrue, if you don't have personal experience with their shipments I understand how you might believe the rumors people are saying, but I'm here to tell you AS has great plants.

Ditto, lakesidecallas!!
gail
It is probably just a problem with a co-op that the little plugs can't last that long............they need to be shipped and potted up immediately...........

For the sake of the community, I have locked this thread. While much of the discussion is constructive and helpful, I don't know that re-opening old (but not that old) wounds is going to help things along. I know the committee has read your comments and appreciated the suggestions. At this time, let's let them do their job, which is to put a workable gameplan in place that will allow good co-ops to take place, while eliminating the common pitfalls that seem to plague those that turned out less-than-stellar.