Saving the Co-op forum

Kudos, and a huge THANK YOU to Admin. and the folks who volunteered to be on the committee!

I've only participated in co-ops a couple of times and had great luck with the hostess and the products offered. After reading some comments about the problems that have showed up in some of the co-ops I am grateful there will be a committee in place to handle everything!

The Admin of Dave's is to be congratulated on offering us a great site. Far superior to any other I have visited and that is why I am happy to be a paying member. For all of you that host co-ops, a *huge* THANK YOU!

I am sorry there have been problems. In my experience, the thought of participating at our own risk was enough for me. IMHO, no one has a right to complain to site admin or place any responsibility on them. The co-op host that over does, and the vendor that can't meet their obligation are the responsible parties. It is frustrating that the complaints of those who do not accept the concept of 'at your own risk' put the future of co-ops at risk, bring about major change and complications for others, and basically become a fly in the ointment.

With all these new requirements and review of all posts etc, how does one go about expressing an interest or looking for someone to host a co-op? For instance, I would love to take part in a rose co-op. But there is no way to post and ask if someone would be willing to look into hosting one.

Once again, thanks to all at Dave's and to all those that host!
Jennie

I'm sure that once the new co-op forum structure is worked out there will be some way for people to bait the hook and find a co-op host for the plant/items they are interested in. Perhaps a sticky thread "Host Needed For _____________ Co-op". When the host position is filled, host approved then it can be marked Closed. Good info to give the potential nominee might include who is interested or available to co-host, do spread sheets etc.

I have to say that given the varying degrees of headaches the forum has given Dave over the years, it is especially nice to have him offer to step in and offer some sort of solution. He didn't have to and I really admire the fact that he (and the "Home Office"lol) are interested in offering help and solutions. Like others I have to say thank you to the anonymous volunteers for the committee for offering their time and help.

Thank you again Dave and staff, along with the committee, for coming up with new guidelines to save our coops. As always this site is maintained in the interest of all the participants. You are appreciated more than you know. Elaine

Maybe we could have a separate forum for discussions about co-ops, interest threads, etc. That might also be a good place for chat threads (links to chat threads could be put at the top of official threads in the co-op forum). ?

After reading all this thread, thank goodness my coop participation has been fab. iris from D, organized by the oh so patient totally organized flowerfrenzy. No dead rhizomes from an iris coop.

inanda

Thanks to all of you for caring enough to work so hard to reach this fine solution. Applause...applause. I would truly miss the co-ops. Sincere thanks (and admiration). :)

Agreed. Great solution for what must have been a source of great aggravation for Dave and the crew.

Pirl, that is a ditto from me. I love the co-ops!!

Me too!

I participate in a perfume forum that has "decant circles" -- very similar to co-ops, where the organizer buys large bottles of perfume and decants them into smaller vials for the participants, so that many people get to try the scent for a much more affordable price. That forum, too, had to institute a committee to approve decant circles, for exactly the same sorts of problems that folks experience here. I think the approval process has worked out really well for them.

They also have a ladder of size limits on the circles: new organizers are restricted to circles below a particular number of participants & bottles, and after successfully completing one they're allowing to request to do a larger one the next time, and so on. I can put you in touch with the forum mods, if you want to pick their brains about anything....

what great idea about the ladder of size limits.

Perhaps there should be more rules for co-op participants, in order to make it easier on the hostess. In particular, rules set by the hostess about changing orders. I watch as many participants do many additions and subtractions from their orders, and I can't imagine being a hostess if I had to change 50 orders every 5 minutes. I changed an order once, when it became clear that something wouldn't be available, but I usually wait until I know exactly what I want before placing an order, to make it easier on the host.
If I was running a co-op where a certain number had to be reached on each plant, my rule would be that participants could order once before the tally. After the tally was posted, people could make additions to fill the numbers........you get the idea. No wonder there was great confusion about orders during an ongoing co-op. I can't imagine that too many people would order from a nursery and then call them 5 times saying add this, drop that, add this, drop that............

Thanks to everyone who worked out such a good solution for such a beloved forum.

To the committee, may your job be easy! Thanks for volunteering.

Thanks for all of this information. I am starting my first coop and am going to ask someone who seems to know a lot to be my "advisor." As a first-time hostess, the most valuable suggestions came from everyone in the interest thread and I changed my plans based on the great suggestions made in that thread. I am also going to take the advice in this thread to heart and make sure that things go right for everyone. I have benefitted from the hard work of other hostesses and felt it was my turn to pitch in if there were others interested in a product I was interested in. The whole purpose of a "coop" is honest cooperation of the participants so that everyone gets a better price. I think that there should always be total transparency in pricing and I have put all of the pricing out there for the people interested in my coop to see. This should never be a "for-profit" endeavor. I appreciate the opportunity to do this and try to pay my dues to all who have helped me in the past by hosting such great coops. Thanks to you all! :)

I just hope The Crafty Gardener has another co-op in the future! She was awesome! I got my Echinaceas from here at half the price I normally pay. I hope they get approved by this committee!

I think the basic concept must remain: Participate at your own risk.

By selecting a committee to approve (or not) the hosts/hostesses for co-ops, does that in any way create a responsibility or liability on the part of Admin for the succes or failure of the co-op? I sure hope not. That is my fear about moving away from the 'own risk' system with admin on the sidelines and not involved.

No, it doesn't.

The committee is a safety net, but it's still caveat emptor. We can't control what happens to a co-op, all we can do is try to weed out the ones that we can foresee will be problems.

Thanks so much Dave. I appreciate all that you guys do. I was just fearful that someone would try to slant responsibility toward admin. Not only is that unfair, it further jeopardizes the future of the co-op system.

I don't understand how anyone could blame the administration for poor management of co-ops. However, there might be more of a tendency to do that since an administrative committee is now approving hostesses.

And yes, I believe it is "participate at your own risk" venture, but I don't believe you shouldn't complain or take some sort of action if you don't get the promised plants, it should be the same as if you ordered from a catalog or company direct.

Perhaps because so much plant trading goes on at DG, the distinction between trading and co-op blurs. I've seen a lot of posts where people think it is OK to get nothing from a co-op (although they paid for plants), or it's OK to get obviously dead plants. It's hard to keep the line between being a professional (running a co-op) and being pals with other members.

I was told that since I was a vendor, I couldn't help pack boxes for a co-op I was in, that it was against the rules. But I see vendors solicitating co-ops, and vendors buying from other vendors, then selling to co-ops. People don't seem to realize those middlemen costs add up!

Maybe they should restrict vendors from participating in any part of a coop. Because of the size of their orders. Or, restrict the size of the orders.

Even with a structured committee and rules I do not understand how they don't expect to get complaints. It should cut down on them I am sure, but the thing is, the other users don't find out there are these problems until Dave decides to drop the coop altogether. Only the users such as in the agristarts coop knew there was a problem. I suppose word gets around. Maybe the rest of us had our heads in the sand. I don't have time to read all of the posts on Dave's.

I wonder if any of those unruly people in that coop were suspended from the program. Should have been.

Jeanette

I was not one of them but no they weren't.

I just want to point out a few things I believe. First "At your own risk" needs to stay. Running to the administration or committee should still be a No No (I included the committee)
The committee will chose the co-op host or hostesses thet apply. That should be the end of their job unless they may feel they need to speak to the hostess about a problem they see or foresee and also to the hostess or the problem maker if a problem needs addressed like take it to D-mail.

Some things happened in the agristarts that I disagreed with. I am not going to say I was totally happy but things do happen it is life and it doesn't stop for a co-op. For one if a person is not happy they need to make sure before going to a law enforcement of any kind they have not did anything wrong themselves. And that punishment or reprimand does not fall on other participants or this website. Another thing is
if I want to accept the plants that died and not say anything or take sides that is my right.

Things happen and I am not saying that will be every time but I saw where Debbie did take far too many orders and I am sure that was to please everyone. And like a child who fills their dinner plate to full we always said their eyes were bigger than their stomach. She made a mistake and one all of us can learn from. I am not throwing stones at froghollowlady either but it is very illegal to give someone a check that you knew you had nothing in the bank. And if I ever decide to do another co-op I don't have the money and if I did I can not cover someones check. Just think if more than 5 did the same thing.

I think a list should be kept of participants who leave hostess' stuck and don't pay. That has happened a lot. And if the deadline has come and gone and someone can not afford the plants because of an emergency then it should be up to that person to find someone to by their plants. That happened to me and I was hounded almost everyday until I found someone.

And one more thing the 2 co-ops I started and Vossner finished one so kindly for me where not wholesale. I picked the place and negotiated off the retail if I could get x amount of orders.

just my opinions. Oh and it someone wants to spend 300 dollars knowing it is at your own risk then it is their fault for doing it if they lose it, No one twisted their arm to buy.

ok I am done. :o)

I'm responding to your lfirst paragraph, Jeanette. I am a vendor, have a small nursery, and I hope we can continue to participate in co-ops, as I like to get just a few select things through co-ops. Sometimes I want just 10 irises for my private garden, or 25 caladiums for my hanging baskets in front of the house. If I wanted to buy a huge amount, I would buy direct, it would cost less. So I don't know why vendors would be buying large amounts through a co-op anyway, when they can buy them direct as cheaply. I certainly wouldn't buy through a co-op for plants to sell in my nursery. That makes no sense. Usually you can get a flat of 18 wholesale, and if you can't sell 18 of something in your nursery, well...., LOL. The only reason I can think of for a vendor buying large amounts through a co-op is if they are operating a business 'under the table', without the proper licensing and tax IDs to be able to buy wholesale.

And your last sentence.... I sincerely hope so. Thank you for saying that.

Sandy, you say in your first paragraph there should be no complaining to anybody, admin, or the committee. In your second paragraph you said if someone is wronged, dead plants etc. and doesn't say anything about it then that is their right. Not sure who they are to say something to if the host does nothing to rectify the situation and you can't say anything to either admin or the committee.

Regarding the rest of your post, maybe there should be a 3 strike rule on buyers if they are regular abusers.

Polly, If you read my post about vendors, I also said OR restrict the size of the orders. After reading your post I have to assume then, that the buyers of the orders for hundreds must have been homeowners buying for their own gardens? That is why I said the size of the orders. I believe the host of Agristarts was overwhelmed. People seemed to be caught up in the "AUCTION" mentality not having any regard for what was going to happen when the plants needed to be paid for or packaged for mailing. OR planting. I couldn't believe people saying they were spending so much time planting hundreds in 4" pots. I thought this was suppose to be fun.

As far as my last sentence, I have already gotten a D mail asking for names of people I was referring to as unruly. Guess we all have different standards of good conduct.

Jeanette

BTW, Dave suspended several people in the brug forum a couple of years ago for activity such as is happening in the coop forum. He didn't cancel the forum. He suspended the players.

Jeanette

Jeanette,

I would agree that the size of orders could be restricted. I think you made an excellent point. What I was trying to say was that I saw no need for vendors to buy huge quantities. They could get them wholesale as cheap. I do not think they are buying the hundreds for their own gardens. Buying that many would lead me to believe they are using them for sales, but are not licensed or don't have the proper sales tax IDs to purchase wholesale.

I am agreeing with you Jeanette. I just didn't like the idea of resticting vendors from buying at all to get the few things they want for their gardens, like anyone else.

I further agree that the agristarts host was overwhelmed, which could have been prevented by limiting the number of plants one could buy, as you suggested, and the number of participants.

This message was edited Aug 7, 2009 6:48 PM

Not to defend anyone else in that co-op, but the reason I ordered a lot is because I collect bananas and have quite a few, between them and my citrus, I have a 24x36 gh full. I really wanted some of those varieties. If I could have, I would have ordered 1 of each, but when you have to order 3 of each, they really add up fast. Add that to the amount of people in the co-op, all ordering 3 each, and it is really easy to see how the hostess could be overwhelmed.

Jeanette, you are right, there should be someone to complain to, someone who can look in and step in if need be. Maybe that can be part of the committee's duties??

That's terrible that people buy in a co-op and then don't pay! I didn't know that happened, but I shouldn't be surprised.

Remember, a vendor can be someone that sells on the Marketplace, eBay, farmer's market, out of their front yard.... They don't have to be a big (or small) nursery. (That is, as far as I know! Which ain't far some days, LOL)

Oh, I agree 100% lakesidecallas. A vendor can be someone small, they don't have to be a big nursery. I'm certainly not. But if they want to get hundreds of plants to sell on ebay, or at the farmers market, maybe the co-op isn't the best place to do it, and put the host under stress.

I sell beardless irises, and if there was a co-op for siberian irises, say, I would never consider ordering hundreds of them. That's not what I think the co-ops are for. I think the co-ops are for obtaining plants for our own personal use. Would you agree? Or do you think the co-ops should be a means of getting plants for resale, also? Maybe I have the wrong outlook. And this is all asked in a friendly way, this discussion has that tone, and it's nice.

I don't just don't know.
I'm certainly a small nursery, I sell here and there, mostly at our farmer's market and rarely make enough money to pay for my licenses.
But I've bought plants through a co-op and sold extras, I've also been approached by a co-op vendor asking me to buy more from them, above what I bought through the co-op!
I've also sold plants that I bought and then no longer wanted, for example, I bought a lot of Glads this spring but hated the way they all leaned and fell over here, I'll be selling them or the bulbs if I can get rid of them. I also bought a lot of Cannas for a large landscaping project and I don't like them, either!
I don't see anything wrong with a vendor reselling plants they get through a co-op.
I guess a hostess can limit the amount of plants a participant buys- that is what the interest thread is for. Go through the threads and count up how many plants are wanted, figure not all people will buy, and some people will buy more. Only offer through the Order what the hostess can handle.
There's always things that go wrong or right, that's the way of the world I guess!

Still, if I pay even $10 for plants ordered, I want them! I respect (and envy!) anyone else that can blow that off, but I've just never been able to. I don't know if "participate at your own risk" means "don't hold admin responsible" or "don't hold hostess responsible" or "don't hold vendor responsible"!

LOL Susan, I am sure there are a lot of things besides people not paying for their orders that neither you nor I have thought of. If we, you and I, tried to make a list of abuses we would probably come up with 4 or 5 out of a possible 20 or 30 since I have never hosted a coop and you have not said you have either.

I suggested an ombudsman type to settle disputes but I think Dave thought I was criticizing the committee. I think either I messed up the message or he was reading too fast to get my meaning and didn't understand what I was saying.

Also, I think it would be a good idea for committee members to rotate thru after a set length of time with other volunteers. I would hope they would have a substitute in the wings in case of illness or people moving etc.

Jeanette

All a hostess has to do is set limits at the start on the number and type of plants, number of participants and max number of plants per participant. And stick to it. If someone doesn't like the rules set, they can move on.

Yeh, budgie...

That puts all in a nut shell/


Hap

Well Susan, we don't have to agree with the decision that was made over our complaint if we just have someone we feel is fair to listen. Guess that is what judge and juries are for. Then it is "at our own risk"? i.e. if we don't like the decision we have the option of not participating in the future.

I think Dave is leaning towards limiting the amount of people and plants both depending on the experience of the host which I think is the right way to go. Altho, I think there should be a top no matter the experience. UINLESS the host proves that they have a GROUP of people for help. The problem I see with that is that the group could all bale out at the last minute leaving one person to do all the packing and shipping.

Oh well, glad it is his problem and not mine. BTW, we cross posted on our last 2 messages.

Jeanette

You're right, budgielover. That's the easiest.

Think we are all cross posting.

Think it is Dave's decision on the amount of participants, plants, etc. Look what happened with the subject coop. The host got caught up in it too. I think is what it sounds like. I wasn't there.

Jeanette

Nope, I happily disagree.

Jeanette

Wow, I can't imagine spending $300, or even $50 or $100 for something in a co-op, and not getting my order ... am I misunderstanding or has that really happened to someone? I know we all take risks when ordering anything over the internet but I would hope if something happened and the product was paid for but not received, one could have their payment returned.

I wonder if there is a way of setting up feedback for each co-op participant as well as each host? I'm not really sure what I mean by that, or how it could work but I'm thinking of a separate co-op feedback, not the feedback on the member home page. After people signed up for the co-op the host could check each persons feedback to see if any host/hostess had given negative feedback about a participant (not paying on time, issuing a bad check, changing mind after product had been ordered, backing out at last minute etc.) Of course it would take awhile for everyone to have feedback as a participant ... after they had joined in a few. I guess that's putting a lot of work on the host though, seeing as how some of the co-op's are so huge with so many folks joining.

Maybe co-op's could be limited to a certain amount of participants, and a have a set limit on products offered as well. I would think it could get way out of hand when a co-op gets really huge, with many participants and many products ... too much for one person to handle with packing and reshipping to each participant, it could be overwhelming.

I've only joined in a couple of co-ops over the years and they all went very well. The host in each was very organized, handled everything very professionally and kept us all up to date on how things were progressing. I think a couple of them had co-hosts and someone handling the spread sheet with updates as well. A few of the ones I participated in had the host receiving the items from the vendor and sorting, packing and shipping them back out to the participants. One or two were where the vendor shipped directly to each participant, which worked well also.

I wonder if there could be a way to have a set of threads for each co-op? I know when I've participated in the past, sometimes it was hard trying to find the correct co-op thread with so many different ones going on at once and having separate interest, order and chat threads from different co-ops all mixed together on a page. I guess I'm thinking of one page for each co-op with that page having links to interest, order, shipping and chat threads, does that make sense? I don't know though if anything could be easily programmed to have a format like that.

I know co-op's usually have deadlines and then closed to new participants. Maybe once the order thread is closed, the host should not place the order with the vendor until all payments have been received and accounted for, to make sure the host doesn't get stuck with any out of pocket expenses?

Since I have never hosted a co-op I really don't know what all is involved and I hope I am making sense. LOL, sometimes (well, a lot of time) I only make sense to me and I'm trying to get things straight in my head. ^_^

I envision one Page with a heading i.e. (Caladium Co-Op) with the host(s) name, vendor name, items being offered, prices. No one being able to post comments on this thread. Then farther down the page links to

(examples):

1) Interest Thread: Deadline to post interest is 8/25/09
2) Product Thread: Listing all products, description and prices. Locked thread for host posting only.
3) Sign Up Thread: Deadline to sign up for co-op is 9/10/09
4) Order Thread: Deadline to order is 9/15/09
5) Payment Thread: Host to list participants names, $$ owed, and when payment has cleared at her end. Locked thread for host only posting.

Host will place order and keep participants updated as to progress etc.

6) Chat Thread: Where all chat can take place and folks can share their pic's once their products are received.

Good idea, plantladylin! I really like that. We all need our chat places, but it would be nice to keep it off the order and other threads. It would clean up the co-op page too, if just the coop name was there and you went to another page to see the coop info.

Quote:
LOL, sometimes (well, a lot of time) I only make sense to me


That is the story of my LIFE!! and I am not joking. People are always misunderstanding me, especially when I think I'm making things clear as a bell.

Sorry about my long winded post, most everything I said was already said, sorry!

I truly hope that something good will come out of all of this so that the co-op forum can continue, maybe in a new format with less problems.

lakeside: And it's so hard sometimes to understand the typewritten word of another. ☺☺