Saving the Co-op forum

Cathy's Co-ops have always been exceptionally well run. She would make a great committee member.

For what is it worth (about .02 probably!), I rejoined DG and paid my yearly dues (today) in large part because of the co-ops. I have particpated (read: purchased) through several co-ops and think they are a fantastic method to learn about new plants for my garden as well as get a fairly good deal on plants and gardening items. So far, no bad experiences for me. Thanks, Dave, for allowing the co-ops to go forward, perhaps with a bit more structure. Beth

I have been on DGs about a year and half and I have had the pleasure of participating in several coops. They have all been very good and I have been well pleased with the items I received as well as the coops themselves. I am thankful that DG allows the coops to continue and I think the committee sounds like a great idea....and I think the restrictions on how many coops one attempts at a time, size of the coop when they are starting out, etc are great ideas too. I think that will only help strengthen the coop forum.

Was not aware of the Garden Angel Fund - but that is a wonderful idea as well. Maybe if you did make it an option on our renewals, we could all contribute a little at a time and possibly help more people in the long run. Is it possible to nominate people that you think might be in need of assistance with their membership? Just confirms that DG is a great place!

Looking forward to participating in more coops and growing my flower beds thanks to DG.

Genna

I have been a member for over 5 years,participated in many wellrun Co-ops but also had some unpleasant experiences in 2-3.

In overall though they're great but I agree it should be somehow maybe monitored,so a committee is actually a good idea.The reason for having said that is the post from Jody ( froghollowlady ) above .I don't understand what she meant by

"I think that's the biggest SCREWING to DG"ers! " and the sentence " not doing it as an income "
I thought we all received items wholesale because the amount that was ordered ? ?

Having Dave and Terry is definately a big PLUS and I am happy that the Co-ops will continue but with more detailed guidelines.Perhaps a hardcopy should be shown to the committee what the actual prices of plants,bulbs etc.are in case there were/are discrepancies ?
Thank you,
Brigitte

Trish, thanks for clearing that up. The writers' forum is not a secret society, LOL.

Dave, are you envisioning that the committee members will have an advising/mentoring role, or will the committee's job be simply to approve applications (or not, perhaps with a brief note as to why not)?

I think it's a good idea to have the application vett both the Hosts and Vendors. If it wouldn't be a conflict of interest, it would be a good idea for one of the committee member to be a DGer who is also a vendor. They would have a better insight into whether or not the vendor is capable of supplying the co-op and dealing with plant and service issues. I think a fair amount of co-ops gone bad are due to the vendor and not the host.

I can envision vendors doing a better job if they knew that they had to be 'approved' by DG administration before a co-op took place. (That is not to say that many vendors do a great job)

I love the idea of a committee.... And thank you Dave for not giving up on the majority of good co-ops and giving us the benefit of trying to make it work!

That is why I LUV it here!!

This idea of "filtering out the good guys from the bad" seems almost impossible when dealing with a person who has never done a coop before. Ideally, I know this premise is based on the idea that you are only looking at someone that has already done at least one coop, but I don't think thats realistic. You are going to have applications from people that have never done one before-for several reasons. One-I think that this whole coop forum is loosely based on new people stepping up and "taking their turn" to host a coop. Two-experienced coop hosts need a break and will not be doing it, thus cutting down on the number of "experienced" hosts that are available. Three-there are different kinds of coops here.-those where the host is not responsible for the packing and shipping-the vendor is, and those where the host is responsible for the packing/shipping (the harder, or a lot more work type of coop)

So, assuming that you will have to judge a "new " persons ability to do a coop (esp with the packing/shipping), what characteristics do you look at to determine if they are able to pull it off? And what is too big?

Just using the past Agristarts coop as an example-that host had great reviews before the coop, was widely (enough )known (and again-what does that mean? They are nice? They type alot? they are good at communicating, thus people know them?). I don't know how you could possibly evaluate a person's competence to run a coop worth thousands of dollars when very possibly no one has ever met them in person or had professional dealings with them. None of the red flags started to come out with the said host until the coop was under way. I am just curious as to how this will be determined. Maybe the applicant would have to submit references from people who actually know them, whether Daves members or not?

Eglantyne, what frogladyhollow is referring to, I believe, is where one member buys the material from a grower ( liner plugs) and sells it to the coop, through a host at a profit.

I'm not in favor of having the committee approve the vendor. That gets close to giving the committee responsibility for the co-op's success or failure, in effect asking them to guarantee that a vendor is "good"...

The committee should not be asked to research vendors; that's the job of the co-op host. Perhaps a good Garden Watchdog rating (including past co-op performance if applicable) could be required for vendors... if a vendor doesn't have much or any feedback there, then the host would need to provide some background on the vendor.

?

tigerlily,
I couldn't agree more with you........well said. No one in their right mind would give me a task requiring organizational skills. I type a lot, take a lot of pictures and can't find my bingo paper, let alone keep up with other's money. You can tell by my post that I don't have those skills.

But , I don't know how a committee could possibly know the organizational skills of a subscriber. Reading their posts is not a good way to judge such needed skills. Yet, if new people don't step up to offer, the older ones get tired and worn out.

People seem to love the co-ops and life is just life........some are good experiences and some are bad. It is not the end of the world when mistakes happen.

I would suggest a mentoring type of situation for 'new' hosts. Those of us who have experience and a good reputation with coops would do some of the work, if only from behind the scene. The best way to have a trusted coop ran by a new host would be the 'team' effort.

Reasons coops go bad:
---Participants receive plants to late for planting or they are dead when shipped
---Money 'gets spent' on other things before they can gather it all and pay the company for goods. Paypal is one way to help - possibly, vs. sending checks. I would put all checks in one envelope and not deposit them until I had every payment. Then I would write the check in 5 days to the company after they cleared my bank.
---coops become to large to fast - I've had a coop sell 1000 bulbs in 2 hours, know your limit.
---Host vanishes after receiving money and randomly comes online to announce one excuse after another.

You can not change any of these things. With all the approval in the world none of us can assure that when someone receives $2,000 for plants that they won't vanish form DG.

Coops have always been a trust method of purchasing plants/bulbs. It will always be a trust issue. Just like buying form a company that says "you must let us know in 48 hours if the plant is delivered in poor condition" and you wait 52 hours - it's to late. You're out the money.

One problem (and ONLY one of many), and this is simply a personal opinion and does not fit all cases but often some people expect everything for nothing. There are members who have nothing better to do than bug Admin and complain about little stuff. Don't contact Admin - you purchased from a person you never met - Admin never met them either - what do you want them to do? If you buy form a box store and get home with an annual and it dies in 4 days - you write it off to a loss.

I have been on both sides of coops. I've done everything I know humanly possible to make good coops. I have also purchased from people I 'trusted as a good member' and lost plants and their reply was "you don't know how to grow that fern" (example only). I've sent money to another host who I ended up calling, listed to 5 excuses, and finally said give me my money.

There must be some sort of rules in place but without seeming negative - you can't 100% trust people even if it's your next door neighbor. Things happen. I don't know the answer but wanted to chime in to give a different perspective of what we are really talking about. Some have posted here that a committee can't make all the right decisions, or that rules should involve the company chosen, or that the host is making money because they are friends with the grower. No one can possibly have all this information.

I personally think the best thing any of us can do is leave feedback if you participated in a coop. Before joining one you should read all the feedback and what words are said about the person - not just if they have a positive or negative rating. Then don't spend more than you can comfortably lose. I personally will never order from a coop that is plants or plugs. I would always consider buying bulbs - you can't really go wrong with these. Personal judgement on your part is the only thing you can be sure of.

It is very possible to glean insight into a person's organizational capabilities just by reading their posts as they discuss their gardening, hobbies and life activities. Many members here are active in many different types of organizations and run all sorts of events for those groups. Maybe they can't ceate a spreadsheet, but there are many of folks here to partner with who will gladly help.

Before I enter into a co-op, I go to the Host's Member page and read about them and then go and read threads and posts that they've made.
By doing this you can usually get a good idea of their strengths and weaknesses. If they are a very busy trader, there will be a good amount of feedback to read.

Here's my food for thought.

I joined Daves in July of last year. I have bought from many many coops, NONE have been "bad". Some a little slow but not "bad". This is due to the fact that I do not spend any money that I do not have. Not that I or anyone else can afford to throw it away, and in the long run I have always broken even, either my plants have been shipped or my money returned. We have all had those "life happens" times. We are all just people, not perfect in any way.

In my experience; it was not only the fault of the Host/Hostess, it was the ugliness that was so upsetting. I dearly love the coops, but I come here to Dave's to escape, learn and enjoy myself. I am here for the comradery (forgive if I spelled that wrong) and common interests of plants, with others who enjoy them as much as I do. NOT to have to read threats, name calling and just plain nonsense. I also feel that those who CHOOSE to purchase on these coops should be responsible adults. If they have issues, they need someone who can help them with their problem, they do not need to post those ugly ugly things. Better yet, if they can not get their problem solved in a timely manner, my suggestion would be for the host/hostess to return their money ASAP, and they would be removed from that coop. I know that does put more responsibility on the hostess, but it does state that this is YOUR CHOICE and the warning at the beginning of the coops. This is just sad that it comes to this yet again.


I do want to say thank you for being so nice about the entire ordeal, and I do hope that the coops continue.......with a key word:RESPECT, not only for your hostess but for the rest of us who have to read it to see what is going on with our shipping as well.

Again, just my thoughts. And for the record, I do not know any of these people personally, not the hostess or the partisipants.

I don't think inexperienced hosts should get turned down automatically. I've seen co-ops where someone 'helped' the host and I think that's a good way to start off doing co-ops and to get experience before doing one by one's self. I also see how 'newbie' hosts could maybe required to keep a co-op to a maximum # of participants as well as $ as a way to help them from getting over their heads. And like has already been said, a lot can be gleaned by a person's history (or lack of) on Dave's.

Eglantyne, no some host/vendors are making allot of money doing co-ops...one is going on as we type...the markup on the plugs is outrageous...but the DGers doesn't have a clue on this unless this committee can see the price from the wholesaler and the price on the co-op to DG'ers..I wanted to get some plants from this MAJOR nursery, but when I checked my wholesale price list to the co-op.....heck NO...this person is racking up some major dough!! at DGers expense. They are selling and this would stop that, and make it a CO-OP...friends helping friends out....its a win/win thing...and if you are against the committee then you have more money then I do!

Vendors are allowed to make money. Hosts (& participants) make a choice about whether to order wholesale and do the packing/reshipping or order retail and have the vendor take care of that (often formidable) task. In a co-op for live plants, I'd rather pay more for experienced packing/shipping.

The host, on the other hand, doesn't get paid for the time and effort of a co-op.

In any co-op, it's a good idea to shop around, add up shipping costs, etc. and decide if the co-op will be a good deal for you.

For example, I often buy bulbs in large enough quantities to get some decent discounts... so the co-op savings aren't enough to cancel out the double shipping. But sometimes I want to try a bunch of different bulbs, maybe just a dozen or fewer of each, and then the savings are significant.

You can't expect the committee to crunch those numbers for you, although a host who's obviously trying to pad the numbers would hopefully be disallowed.

Critter-so you are saying that I can get someone to host the coop and then I can buy from Agristarts at wholesale price and then mark up the prices to the coop? If so-I may do that in the future. I know that I am not near nice enough to send out 5,000 plugs and not get paid for it!

maybe it's because I live in the sticks, but co-ops,barn raising and such are people helping people..no money changes hands...(except for goods)...example..one mother in the co-op watches kids on sat. then one mother watches kids on Friday night....they work together to get the best out of two worlds..time away from the kids and you don't have to pay a sitter..
you should NOT have to "get paid'' to ship 5000 plants...you do it so you and your friends get a good deal....then the next person ships 5000 plants for everyone to get a good deal...and so on..if you think you should get paid for your time...then by all means don't do it...
on the AG co-op I said I would ship out using the help of the two people that work for me...I would still have to pay an hourly wage to them...out of my pocket! but not one time did I ask for any money from DGers. People helping people....I didn't mind doing that....But I won't pay for someone to add 2 bucks or so per plug just becaues they can.....they are selling plugs on a co-op...because they make money ..allot of money...thats why the don't sell plugs on the market place..they could never make that kind of money they do on a co-op.

oh stormyla,
about 80+/- came out of a co-op that the person didn't have one bad review on DG. Oh boy did that turn out in a mess....SO a group can look at a random price points and then see what the host is asking for and see if they are in this for profit or a co-op..
my .03 worth

I just want to make a quick post to say I'm around still...Shihtzmom, you've been heroic in the number of co-ops you've run in the past three years and have always bent over backwards to get replacements/refunds. I'm glad you're stepping back for a while.

Very glad to see work continuing to keep the co-ops, even if I cannot participate in the work at this time.

I also am not in favor of the committee approving the vendor. I think that is the work of the co-op participants, if that's how the particular co-op is set up.

I have participated in many of the coops. I entered at my "own risk". I have lost some money because the shipment was seized, lost some because the money person had some personal problems, hoping to still get my money, and missing some plants and promised by vendor to get replacements later on. All this is to say that I have had at least 25 to 30 that have been extremely enjoyable. The most successful ones are people who have great organizational skills or get people to help who have that quality. I think the idea of a committee is good to look at the applications,but agree that the vendor should not have to be approved. Garden Watchdog is a tool that should be used for all vendors. If people who want to participate in a coop would go on the coop forum they could very soon get an idea of the coop/host that runs successful one. Please figure out how to do this so we don't lose this valuable resource.

In watching the fiasco with Agri Starts, I was dumbfounded that any person would think they were able to wrap and ship the plants that were ordered. There should be a cap on the number of plants or that each participant can only order a set number of plants.

Secondly, a policy on the cost of wrapping items.

Thirdly, the cost of damaged or dead plants-a policy as to who is to bear the cost or how the cost is to be divided.

Most people offering to do coops have good intentions and get in over their head. I appreciate anyone who does a coop, but there are many good intentioned people who get caught up in the moment of wanting to "help" and they can not see the work of packing and taking care of money and giving refunds, etc. There are a few scoundrels out there that want to take advantage of anyone they can, if given the chance. But for the most part, most of those offering to do the coops just don't have the experience to do the job or know what it entails. I think the proposed committee could give some help in making sure the naive are given some assistance to work with someone who knows what it entails. Even with a committee, if limits on number plants or participants, cost of wrapping materials, and how cost is divided of damaged plants, etc.are not addressed, the problems with coops will continue.
my 2 cents

Tigerlily, no, that's not quite what I'm saying. I don't know if you are a vendor or not... but say you are a vendor with a good reputation, and a DGer who wants to organize and host a co-op approaches *you* (not vice versa) to see what sort of deal you could offer us... then yes, as the *vendor* (not the host) for the co-op, you would not be expected to do the work of packaging and shipping for free, and I would expect the price per item to be higher than for a direct order from a wholesaler.

There have been some excellent co-ops supplied by a DGer who imports bulbs. Co-op prices are generally a better deal than the prices on this vendor's website (although website prices are also very competitive), but I'm sure the co-op price is not the same as the wholesale price per bulb.

Froglady, I sure hope no co-op host will try to ship 5000 plants. :-)

Critter, do you host co-ops?

I've helped out with several co-ops, in varying roles, and I hosted a fairly large pepper seed co-op last year that went smoothly. I have not hosted a co-op that involved packing & shipping plants, although having shipped a bunch of trade plants I've got an idea of how much effort is involved.

As a vendor I am happy to see this, one, because what I offer is straight from the webpage and it is is ALWAYS less, I do the digging, cleaning, shipping direct to each DG'er, so my hostess and co hostess have the nasty job of the paperwork. I have had two, three co op's per year and thankfully not one problem. I hope to continue to be able to give the DG Members this offer as good as I can for they are the ones that have given me excellent Garden Watchdog ratings.

I get very angry when I see a vendor making BIG BUCKS on a co op because that is ripping the members of this forum off, and many DG members do not know how much they should cost. So I personally would never have a problem as a vendor to be asked to know my prices. I do not get my plants from anywhere but where I grow them. I am not a middleman. I am a grower!

Thank you all for such great imput on making this a better co op forum for ALL.

D

Thank you all for this good discussion and for all the volunteers that I have. So far, I have 19 members who have volunteered to be on the committee.

I will be talking with Trish, Terry, and Melody to select the ones who will be asked to sit on this panel, and I will then contact those members and begin the process.

Once the panel is formed, I will work directly with that panel to develop the policies that the co-op forum will work under. The members of that panel will take all the ideas and feedbacks that have been presented on all these recent threads and hopefully come to a consensus on the policies.

Things are looking brighter. :-)

Dave

I am not a LONG time member, but really became interested in doing a coop for sedums. Not just for others, but for me too...I could also use the wholesale prices. From the very beginning, along with some good suggestions in the chat part of the coop, I decided on a small number of people for it...25. I then found a vendor, but was given a better suggestion by another member in the chat. So, that helped a great bit getting better prices...and maybe plants...I don't know about that yet. I made up the list of plants to order, which were only sedums...another member suggested I add a few hens-and-chicks...so I added a few of those, too. I taught myself how to make a spreadsheet and set a few rules for it. The plants were gone in just a few days and I had to cut it back to 20 people as there just were no more plants, and I felt that making the order larger might be more than I could deal with, esp since I had never tried doing a coop before. Payments were arranged and just coming back from 30 hrs of being on the road in the past two weeks (landscaping our new house), I think almost all have been made. I did put a cut-off date for payments to come in, and is set before the plant order comes in, so that any plants not paid for can be offered to those 20 people that are on the original list and can go out with their original order so not to increase their postage if possible.
A member living a bit over an hr away from me...didn't know she was that close!!!...offered to come help me pack. GREAT!!! In the meantime, I have obtained my boxes, made address labels, and prepared them for shipping back out as all plants will be coming to me first.
SO FAR, I think I have done a good job, I have tried hard, and all of my DG trading feedback is not positive!
I have never done a coop or co-hosted one either. Today, I will be making a new list of all 20 people, checking to see who has not paid, and since I have gotten enough money, and then some to pay for the plants, I will be doing that. Also having the plants shipped to arrive when hubby is out of town so he won't be "in the way"! LOL!
Hoping everything works out fine... Will let everyone know after it is over.
Debbie

One last question from me. Who is going to field complaints? The committee? Maybe you need an ombudsman????

Jeanette

What kinds of complaints? Complaints against the committee?

No, complaints about all of the stuff that has caused this issue (problem). receiving dead plants because of poor packing. Paying for plants that were not received. etc. All the complaints you have been getting. They will still be coming no matter what kind of committee and rules you set up.

You, Dave, said "use the coops at your own risk". That did not stop them from coming. Or, is the committee just finally going to say "Too bad"?

I spent $35 on a coop and got 2 out of the 5 plugs. Those 2 were lying in the box with nothing around the roots. NOTHING. NIL. It took almost 2 weeks to get here. You figure it out. BUT, you had said "at your own risk". So, I bit my tongue. All the feedback to the host was how wonderful he/she was. So, was I going to burst the bubble? Nope.

Jeanette

Update on the committee selection:

It was a difficult decision selecting from among such a fine group of volunteers, but the selection is complete and the committee members have been notified. Rest assured that we selected a very balanced and appropriate group, and every one of the site admins (Trish, Terry, Melody and myself) all unanimously approved each member.

I am going to now work behind the scenes with the committee and help them digest all the information and ideas that have been presented. They will then present to me their proposed guidelines, procedures and policies, and I will implement them.

So, once there's something to announce, I'll be posting it here.

Dave

Perhaps that again points to a need for anonimity for co-op feedback, if only to have a rating system that is on a 1-4 scale with certain criteria addressed and no written comments. That way, if I screw up and a friend is in my co-op, she can still be honest about the outcome and not have it be personal. Might be too cumbersome, but feedback is the only way new participants can know history. Everyone messes up on occasion, too, and so it goes. Hosts aren't professionals, and that's part of the "risk." Without it, there is no record other than to go through old threads, which, if nasty, may have been pulled.

Communication+community/caring=co-op sharing (something like that, anyway; it's not all about the money! (or plants)

:-)
Great!
(cross posted...took a long time to write that little post)

Glad to see there are going to be a comittee and rules. I see things starting to get a bit out of control again and I am hesitant to join co-op unless they are being run by certain people I trust.

I do have one question that may or may not be able to be answered at this point. Can someone on the comitte also host a co-op or be the vendor to one?

So glad you had so many volunteers to take on this task. Good Luck to all!

Just curious...there are a few interest co-ops brewing will these now have to wait to be approved?

In all fairness, should a committee member even be allowed to host a co-op?

I want to thank you Dave and admin (and now committee) for taking this on and trying to better things here on DG. You could have closed co-ops completely but instead are going to try to come up with a solution that can keep them open. Of course everyone is not going to like the new changes but hopefully this will make most members happy.