Seed starting with grow lights

Yesterday, I had to move my beans to the garden from Peat pots. They were 8" tall and had 6"+ roots growing out of the pots. I peeled off the pots, planted and watered them. Crossing my fingers. Put in some corn and several morning glories. The beans were strong enough to grow through the peat, but I could see the corn and MG struggled to push against the peat. Mine were very wet in the pots, but I am paranoid, when everything is so dry here.

How long are you on watering restriction? It's very rare here, but it has happened in the past. Luckily it's usually July/Aug so the plants are established and have fairly deep roots. It never lasted very long (maybe a week, week and 1/2), but in the meantime I was a mess lol

I think we are always on watering restrictions as far as I know. But sometimes they are more serious about enforcement, and right now is one of those times. Florida is very much a desert environment, and if there wasn't water on both sides, probably would be a full blown desert -- look at the other states at or near the same latitude -- Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, southern California, not to mention northern Mexico. :) Last year the drought in Georgia made it worse, because the rivers flow from Georgia to Florida. Florida needs many tropical storms to recover. (Really we need a few good hurricanes, but, of course, not the damage they cause, just the rain.) We are 15+ feet low in our aquifer. The lack of water also causes more sinkholes. Since Florida is generally limestone, held up by the water in the aquifer, remove the water, and the limestone falls due to the weight of the earth and frequently houses.

The state is a tinderbox right now, and we'll be lucky if we make it to the rainy season (summer) without some major forest fires. It is worse this year, because the hard winter freezes killed more vegetation and so there's more stuff to burn that usual.

To give you an idea of the watering restrictions. We are allowed to water once a week on a certain day (mine is Tuesday) in the morning before 8 AM or after 6 PM. Next week, Tampa voted to restrict all sprinklers. No one is allowed to use sprinklers on any day at any time (unless you put in sod, then once a week for a month). You may hand water with a hose on your watering day only. They says this saves 8 million gallons a day for drinking water. I have no problem with this ban, because it is critical that we have water to drink. Maybe people with stop planting non native plants that require too much water.

Below is a picture of some of our native vegetation growing wild with a bit of frost damage this year. If was fruiting like mad probably thinking it was going to die. :)

I hope you picked those prickly pears, squeezed them, added sugar, and put some of that into your margarita or on toast. ;)

I'm having issues with a very low germination rate on my tomato's, I have about 20% that have germinated and they've been growin for about 2 weeks now.

I'm worried that it may be due to it being a little cold in my basement, I have a hot light (250 W Halogen) heating up the metal shelf that they are on but its only on for 12 hours a day, should it be on all day long to keep the soil warm?

Starsplitter, it's gotta be tough with the water, but you're right-it's more important to conserve for neccessities (I like to think my garden is a neccessity lol, but I know it's not) I've never been to Florida and didn't realize it was so dry. Thanks for the info!
Dredly-you're right with the tomatoes needing warmth for germination, but I've never heard of using a halogen light. Usually they are too hot and will burn up leaves if placed too close. Are you using the halogen for the light placed above the seeds or just for the heat? (I start my seeds in the cooler basement, but I figured out a system to help boost heat-without using anymore electricity than just my fluorescents)

Unfortunately, I was in a park and the rangers frown upon people taking stuff. I was tempted though. :) I did take some orange seeds that came out of a bean I plan to plants and see what they belong to.

We are generally dry from November to May (off Hurricane season). All summer we measure our rain in feet not inches, but it is tough in the winter. If I don't start my plants now it will be too hot. Unfortunately even with our regular heavy rains in summer, our aquifer is still dangerously low. We need many feet of rain over our normal amounts to fill up our aquifer.

Melissa, can you share how you did it?

I have the halogen light below the shelf warming it (Metal Gorilla shelf) so they plants are only getting heat from it, they aren't getting the light.

starsplitter-If we get too much rain in May/June like we did last year I'll ask for it to be sent your way. Might need it back in July/Aug-that's when it's always dry here. I've been tempted to take starts from places I'm not supposed to, but have always done the right thing and left it be. Well, I take that back. I found a rubber tree leaf on the ground and took it-does that count?
Dredly- I have shelves that are 4'x2' each. I place 2 flourescent light fixtures above, one isn't enough because the edges would be equivalent to full shade. I do some electrical work and based on cost of electricity here 2 lights ran 12 hrs. day for a month cost about $4.50. I love to start my seeds inside, but if it costs a fortune it's not worth it. My basement stays between 58-60 and I can't run the furnace down there. So past years I had germination, but not as successful as I would like. Anyway, I got some 1/2" stryofoam insulation board and made a box for my seedlings. One on top (cut holes for the chain they hang from) and taped three sides together. I covered the whole inside with aluminum foil. It's lightweight, so can be lifted for viewing and watering. The shelves are wooden ones I made, so I cover the bottom with cheap plastic to hold heat and prevent wet wood/fungus growth. I made a fourth side that I move when needed. Thermometer before-60 after 88. That's too hot, that's why I leave one side open plus they need air circulation. I put the one side on a couple hours a day, so they will be used to hotter temps when I take them outside. This also increases the humidity so high that the sides will be dripping with water. I never leave the 4th side on at night, I don't want to cause any type of fungus growth. The insulation board was in my garage so it was free. I don't spend any more money for heat. This has been the absolute best year for my seedlings, unbelievable the difference it's made compared to years before.

I watched all that flooding last year and felt very sorry for the people who were enduring that (My step-sisters live in Indianapolis and Columbus). At the same time, I was wishing that rain would make its way my way. We were bone dry last year too. SigH! Too much and too little.

Melissa, thats an excellent idea. I didn't realize that a florescent light would put off that much heat. do you just have 2 standard 40 watt bulbs in there?

Yeah, just the 40 watts. I use 6500 K for my seedlings, it's suppose to represent the color temp, but I don't know if it helps with the heat. I didn't realize they would produce that much heat either, wish I had thought of it a couple years ago. I really wanted to heat my seedlings this year and was going to run a small vent from the furnace and my OH refused. He said gas was high enough as it was and couldn't imagine heating my seedlings. (I thought they were important enough lol) Anyway, creativity...one day I was adjusting the lights and felt they were a little warm. Not really enough to notice unless you were desperate for heat. So I thought if I could contain this heat, seen insulation board in the garage..... I have to say I am very proud of my idea (just a little bragging lol even though it's not something that would take a genius to figure out)
Starsplitter-thanks for the concern of Indiana. I wasn't affected by the floods and didn't know anybody who was, but my heart went out to them. With the exception of tornados, we usually don't have major disasters.

I'm going to have to give that a shot and see how it works out for me. Do you leave the lights on 24 hours a day or do you just close it up at night to keep it warm?

Great, just checked the few tomato plants that were growing and some are starting to wilt... I moved the light closer and I think they were on the outskirts of it, I've added a second one so we'll see what happens with that.

I'm a little late on the comments for peat pots, but I've been pretty happy with them for use as temporary growing space. I bottom water and I use the pots' dryness as a watering gage. I water the day after the pots are mostly dry and give the plants a good soak, about 3/4 gallon per tray.

When time to put in the garden I soak everything, then tear most of the pot off the roots. I'm only transplanting things that can handle disturbed roots, like tomatoes, peppers, and herbs. I have had good results for the past few years.

David

dreaves-never too late to share your thoughts!
Dredly- I only leave the lights on for 12 hrs. I have a lot of light fixtures in the basement, so....idealy, it would be 16 hrs. Plants need to have darkness, so the lights need to be shut down for the night. I never leave the whole thing boxed up for the night-it makes perfect conditions for fungus growth. My fourth removable side, I always make sure it's off. I don't worry about keeping them warm at night, yeah in a perfect world maybe but outside the temp difference from day to night can be drastic so I actually think this might help them out.
Before I thought of this, I had low germination rate for my tomatoes. After I did this, I resowed (real word?) and they germinated in about 5 days.

Do you by chance have a picture of your setup? I'm going to head to the local hardware store tomorrow and pickup some of the insulation and see what I can do

I wish I did, my stepdaughter broke the camera.(Kind of mad about that, she's 18, should be able to be trusted with a $300 camera) Menard's usually sells 4x8 sheets of the white board for $5. Mine is the pink board, but I'm sure white will work the same. I used generic foil on the inside and tape where the sides meet the top. The sides of my 'box' sit right up against the edges of my shelf and are longer than what they need to be so I can raise it as the plants get taller. I used cheap painter's plastic on the bottom. The holes on top that I cut for the chain are really small, so it helps hold the board off the light fixture (it's only like 1" off the light)

Hey everyone kind of new to this. Starting my first veggie garden this year! I have started tomato's, peppers and some herbs I am going on 3 1/2 weeks now. All was started with jiffy pellets and now are transplanted into peat pots. Everything seems to look good, I just need some other opinions to the setup and the way the plants look. Just to make sure I am doing all the right stuff.

Thanks

Wow! That looks really good.

re peat pots:

I started everything in peat pots for 20 years. We used peat pots at home for probably 30 years before that (since BEFORE I WAS BORN, I'm old, but I'm not THAT old). I stopped using them because they got to expensive for my blood after Mellinger's went out of business. My tomatoes would grow roots out the entire surface of the pot and knot together with their neighbors (and grow INTO neighboring pots as well as out of their own). Most other plants didn't root that aggressively but I never had a root bound transplant.

Peat pots don't dry the soil if you use them properly. That means filling to the top with planting medium. Otherwise you've got a lip that acts like a wick.

Starting plants in the basement - get some heating coils or mats. Tomatoes like warm temps to start, 70 to 75 degrees. Most basements are in the 60s or lower depending on climate. Or start them upstairs and move them downstairs after a couple of weeks.

I've got to get me some new fluorescents. My dad is champing at the bit, he asks me every day if the upside down tomato planter is here yet. (I know they suck, but he wants to try one, and I'll have plenty of other maters in containers and in the garden)

Jarsh83, everything looks great! I would suggest thinning out the seedlings that are really thick.

Thanks Starsplitter and Melissa!! Quick question Melissa, what do u mean when saying" thinning out the seedlings that are really thick" I was under the impression that I have already done that. I took each pellet and cut them back to one plant each (but not the herbs). So did I do it or do I need to do something else?

Yes, I was refering to the herbs. The tomatos look great. Is that basil in the front?

Okay Melissa I will get right on top of that. I did not know that I should do that plus I was a little scared to touch them LOL. Yes the basil was in the front...now in the back cause I have some tomato plants that need a little more light. Here is a pic of the basil cut back. Does it look okay?

Forgot to ask, how much light a day do you think they need? Right now I am giving them 14 hours a day.

P.S.They do not get any sunlight in case that matters.

Howdy, Jarsh83, Welcome to DG!

Nice looking plants. Regarding the basil, I think I'd divide them and repot them so you have more plants rather than snip them off. Young basil seedlings transplant pretty well.

I was wondering what kind of light bulbs you have in those fixtures. Were you able to find some screw-in fluorescent bulbs or are they standard incandescent?

Again, Welcome!

Shoe

I might try that Shoe, as far as the lights I am using screw-in fluorescent bulbs (2) LARGE 6500K SPECTRUM HIGH POWER OUTPUT LIGHT BULBS (1) LARGE 2700K SPECTRUM HIGH POWER OUTPUT LIGHT BULB

Jarsh83-regarding the hours of your lights, I'm not familar with your setup but assuming it produces the same light as a standard fluorescent fixture, 14 hrs. should be fine. I only run mine for 12. They are in the basement and do not receive any sunlight. Ideally 16-18 hrs. would be better, but I run a lot of lights in my basement and they do fine with 12. What other herbs are you doing?

Why do folks use florescent bulbs when tubes are longer and can illuminate a larger surface area? And aren't tubes cooler as well?

I'm kind of confused as to the whole growlight thing. I googled growlights and found sites that sold led ones, halogen ones, and everything but flourescent tubes. I think some of them were for growing whole plants instead of merely starting seedlings.

I got a small table top growlight, with flourescent tubes, but decided it wasn't enough so I got a shoplight and made a wooden stand. Then I got another shoplight so it would be wider. I am kind of tempted to get a third but it's only for starting seedlings and supplimenting natural light.

I am wondering what it would take to grow tomatoes and peppers in my mudroom in the off season, where my stuff is set up at. I don't think my current lighting would be enough. I thought of just moving a few containers in and out but I guess that would not work on plants full of fruit.

Hey Melissa Thanks!! I am also doing oregano and thyme.

Okay so just thought of a few more questions. SORRY hope u don't mind! I am getting ready to start some flower seeds! Here is the thing though, some of the flowers need partial shade. So where would the lights be placed? Also how often would you say is normal for watering your veggies?

Thanks

Fluorescent light is not nearly as close to intensity in the sun (even the 6500K) and flower seeds for shade plants should be started the same as any others (unless the seed germination instructions clearly state darkness, but that's usually the case for some perenials.)
There isn't a 'normal' for watering veggies (I'm assuming the seedlings), it's based on conditions in your home, your plants, etc. The soil should be moist, not soaking wet. It is WAY worse to overwater then underwater, so if you're not sure err on the side of caution and stay on the dryer side. Seedlings showing signs of underwater will usually recuperate, wet ones don't always do so well. Eventually you should get a 'feel' for when they need watered. You can use a water meter, but you'd have to be really careful not to damage/disturb the roots. Seedlings under lights don't grow as quickly as in other conditions, so unless your area is really hot/dry they don't need to be watered as often as if they were sown in a greenhouse or outdoors.
When I acclimate my seedlings to the outside, I put them in the coolest, deepest shade in my yard for a couple days and slowly move them to bright light. I've burned up seedlings before putting them in full sun directly from the fluorescent light.

Okay here is another, I got out today and tilled the garden area!!! I did a soil test and found out that I have 0 Nitrogen and low Potash. So first of all what should I do? I was thinking of adding Liquid Fish Emulsion to the area for the Nitrogen. I have NO IDEA what to do for the Potash. Then I got to thinking why can't I get a Miracle Gro hose feeder and just give it a few doses before I start planting and then continue to feed the plants all summer long.

Also, what do u think of growing strawberries in Indiana?? I went ahead and order a grow bag from park seed. Any thoughts?

http://www.parkseed.com/gardening/PD/42009/

Thanks

Hey, I hadn't noticed you were from Greenwood!
You got me on those questions. I have never had a soil test done and just use regular fertilizer. But I got out my notes for my plants and had some info:
Nitrogen-Responsible for dark green leaf color and increases growth of leaf and stem. Additives for nitrogen: manure, bloodmeal, fish emulsion, cottonseed meal
Potassium-Responsible for vigorous plants and disease resistance, encourages strong-stiff stem and helps production of sugar and starches. Additives for potassium: muriate of potash, greensand, wood ashes, seaweed, kelpmeal.
I don't know anything about these additives, but hopefully it will give you an idea of what to look into. The only thing I really know about fertilizer is to be careful,not add to much, and don't let it sit on your leaves in the hot sun.
Strawberries-I wish I had a larger yard. I would love to grow them. I don't know anyone who grows them now, but the farm I lived on in Brownsburg as a child had large fields of them, so I assume they do fine here. That was a great time-sneaking out to the fields and eating as many as we wanted.....until we got in trouble when we came back inside covered in juice lol

You are going to have to add GALLONS of liquid fish emulsion to get the Nitrogen up. You are much better adding a balanced organic pelletized fertilizer of some sort. You can jack up the nitrogen if you need with corn gluten meal I believe, or alfalfa pellets. I would look at organic balanced fertilizers and go with that. They are made up of blood meal (+Nitrogen), Bone meal (+phosphorous), Bat Guano, Alfalfa, Kelp, etc. etc. lots of goodies and soil activators.

Ditto on the gallons of liquid fert, besides it's going to not stay put anyway, Jarsh. It would be best to incorporate a solid substance as suggested above. Compost goes a long way to adding nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium and micro nutrients as well, plus it encourages living organisms in the soil. ("Feed the soil, not your plants.") I would use your fish emulsion directly on the plants once they are set out, both as a foliar spray as well as a drench from time to time.

Corn gluten is a source of nitrogen but remember it is also a "weed killer" and acts by inhibiting seed germination, and that is not restricted to weeds alone but will affect any veggie seed you sow as well (think beans, radish, greens, etc).

Jarsh, we'll have you brewing your very own compost tea soon, and raising worms, and growing green manure crops, and, and,...well, you get the point! *smile

Happy Gardening!
Shoe

Thanks Shoe, So don't laugh but can u buy compost (or can I just use manure or is that compost??)?? Also can I get some brand names or links to pelletized fertilizer? Went to Home Depot today and just stared at that stuff and was like, DUH what am I doing!! LOL

Surely you have better choices than Home Depot/Lowe's/Wal-Mart. Aren't there any local nurseries around?

You might get lucky and find PlantTone or GardenTone at Home Depot. That's a good balanced organic fertilizer product. I've also encountered HastaGro liquid 6-12-6 fertilizer at HD which is really good. Other than that, I don't really see much there that I'd buy. :)

Since you are starting out, you want to get a baseline going of the main nutrients Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potash and also micronutrients like Calcium, Manganese, etc. The best way to do that is with a pelletized fertilizer. It says on the bag how much to add per square foot to establish a new garden bed or alternately how much to add to each planting hole.

Again, GardenTone is pretty good. It has lower numbers of N-P-K than you may be used to. I think it's 2-3-2. But realize that that's what fertilizer is immediately available to the plants. As the organic fertilizer breaks down, it continues to provide more nutrients. When your plants start to get really big (about 2 months) and are loaded down with tomatoes, peppers, etc., you want to go around and scatter a small handful of additional fertilizer around each plant and water it in to give them a boost. Or you can mix up a batch of liquid fertilizer.


Compost is broken down organic material. It can be shredded leaves, grass clippings (no 'weed and feed' or other lawn chemicals), rice hulls, kitchen scraps, cow/horse/sheep manure, or any combination of the above. It takes time (3-6 months), turning it over, and adding the right amount of water to make good compost. There are books about making good compost, and The Vegetable Gardener's Bible by Ed Smith has a good chapter on it.

At the store, you can buy bagged composted cow manure which is cow manure which has been aged for several months until it has no smell. At better nurseries you can find composted sheep manure, or sometimes a really good compost mix of some sort. I generally apply 2 inches of compost to a new garden bed and 1 inch each subsequent year. For a 4 x 8 or 3 x 12 garden bed that's 2 bags of Black Kow ($4.50/bag) composted manure or similar product.

Compost is a way to improve the fertility and tilth of the soil, and to jumpstart the soil organism community. The organic way of gardening is to improve the soil and make it a comfortable place for earthworms and other beneficial creatures and microorganisms to move in. Then you won't even need to till the soil. They'll do it for you. I know some folks who barely fertilize anymore. They just add 4-5 inches of shredded leaves to the tops of their beds every year.


Note that the 99 cent bags of "cow manure", "compost", "humus", "topsoil", etc. at Wally world are about 90% garbage. Look at the bag. It actually says "contains 10% cow manure" or some such. I'm afraid to ask what the other 90% is! Probably scrapings from a landfill.

This message was edited Apr 1, 2009 8:18 AM

This message was edited Apr 1, 2009 8:19 AM

Mornin'..

Yes, you can buy "compost". I see it in bags at Home Depot and Lowe's, etc. I imagine some are better than others but can't personally recommend one over the other; I'd tend to go by texture and reading ingredients.

And yes, manure is fine for your garden, preferably aged. There are also bags of it available at the stores. "Black Kow" would be one that is most recommened.

Plant Tone, Espoma, Hoffman's are fairly decent brands of fertilizer/plant food. If you don't worry about using chemical quick-release fertilizers then any brand of 10-10-10 will work. I tend to lean towards more "organic' approaches though because that's what I'm most familiar with.

Compost in your soil will certainly reduce the amount of fertilizer you need so now's the time to quick throwing your kitchen scraps in the trash or down the disposal. You'd be surprised how quickly it adds up.

PlanetNatural.com has some good items they offer. However, being the miser that I am, instead of ordering online from them you can use the site to read about particular products, find something you might like, then seed them out at local garden centers, big box stores, etc, and save on shipping costs.

Off to the greenhouse, time to pot up tomatoes, peppers, eggplants, sow more seeds, and hopefully get dirt between my toes before today's rains move in!

Keep smiling, Folks!
Shoe