Fixing the co-op forum III continuing the discussion

Thank you Terry. Regarding feedback:

Is only the host supposed to leave feedback on the supplier? Is this also true in those co-ops where the members order directly from the supplier and the plants are shipped directly to the member by the supplier? It seems like members should leave feedback in these situations.

Does the current feedback system allow a member to leave feedback for another member for some seed trading and then later leave another feedback post with an updated date, describing their co-op experience?

If members are advised to enter co-ops at their own risk, some tools must be in place to help members assess those risks.

Thank you, Terry. As requested by several members, if the administration is not yet ready to publish any decisions on the future of co-ops or group purchases, would it be possible for them to:

1) Rule out those suggestions that are completely unworkable?

2)For workable solutions that require member effort, such as the Buyer's /Host's guides, identify those which you think we should begin creating?

I've proposed some tentative ideas to Dave; I'm sure at some point soon he'll weigh in with what is feasible and what isn't.

There is a co-op primer in the Extras section (to find it, click on "Home", then "Extras" in the bar of links beneath the tabs.)

You'll find it was written when the first iteration of co-ops were in place, so it has some references that are outdated or obsolete, but I'd suggest that anyone interested in creating guidelines start with it. (It may be easier to edit an existing document than reinvent the wheel.)

I'd also caution any group effort to keep things as simple and general as possible. Trying to write rules to cover every situation and scenario leads to an overly legalistic and long-winded document that--despite your best intentions--will inevitably have loopholes some will unwittingly stumble onto, and others will set out to find and exploit.

Are there any co-op hosts and shoppers out there who would like to begin working on these two projects?

If the issues to be communicated are broken down into different categories, then each volunteer could take on one or several categories.

Would anyone like to start posting spreadsheet templates, maybe on a new thread in the co-op forum?

I believe that whatever guides are created should be posted in the co-op forum. Maybe new shoppers haven't read them because they didn't think to look in the tools section.

Would hosts and shoppers please start reading the old primer and think of things to eliminate, improve or add? Maybe the best way to do this is to start a thread in the co-op forum.

Does anybody have any other ideas on how to do this?

Here is a link to the old primer:

I can't create the link. Every link I try to make ends up going back to fixing the co-ops II. Can someon else please make the link?

This message was edited Nov 17, 2008 1:35 PM

This message was edited Nov 17, 2008 1:37 PM

Link to co-op primer: http://davesgarden.com/coop_primer/

This seems to have gotten so complicated, I think alot of us just backed off.

If it was easy to fix, DG would have probably done it already.

Many people volunteered to help on these threads. They may have gotten tired of reading. Although the view # shows that a lot of folks stopped here today.

I haven't been participating in co-ops long enough to know who all of the co-op Hosts are. If I knew who they all are, I'd send a DMail blast to them (If I can figure out how to do it). Starting threads in the co-op forum might be the way to go too.

However, folks may be waiting for some statement from the Administration regarding the future of co-ops before they invest any time & effort in any of these projects.

It seems very complicated because we hashed out so many issues and offered so many different solutions. However, if we can get some Idea from the administration of which suggestions are completely unacceptable, things would get a lot simpler.

The key to building anything is to break it down into small tasks. It can be done!!!!

.

somewhere on the co-op primer...or in a thread here on DG there is already a 'how to' on the spreadsheets.... if I remember right it was in the co-op primer.

1anjl, from what you remember were they sophisticated enough to also track the inventory through out the ordering phase?

The one that we were a co-vendor with Agri-Starts, it was sophisticated enough. Three people had access to change individuals orders, and the totals updated automatically against available inventory.

It's out there for people to do, but I had the advantage of my wife being a complete data dork.

Chris

it isnt technically a spreadsheet that you can download...just kinda talks about the advantages of using the google spreadsheet and a little on programming. they have since updated their spreadsheets tho, so the info may be a little outdated.

Maybe I should work on a thread 'programming a google spreadsheet for co-ops' giving step by step instructions...

it would be very difficult to use a 'standard' spreadsheet for every co-op. I have had to recreate a spreadsheet for each of my co-ops...even the glove one. different prices, for different items.... etc, etc, plus # of ordering. etc. you can program the spreadsheets to let you know when you have hit a cheaper price and then change the price etc.

also, for anyone kinda computer savy, you can go to google.com hit documents and spreadsheets and there is a tutorial you can much thru too! lol! I didnt dare to do it....hate tutorials! lol!

will have to wait until after the glove co-op and after I find a vendor for the roses tho! lol!

i agree with cat64129 that it has gotten way to complicated
as stated before-short and sweet
I had many phone calls this past week stating just this-TO MUCH!
Even Terry said in her last post
*****
I'd also caution any group effort to keep things as simple and general as possible. Trying to write rules to cover every situation and scenario leads to an overly legalistic and long-winded document that--despite your best intentions--will inevitably have loopholes some will unwittingly stumble onto, and others will set out to find and exploit.

good luck all!!
simplicity!!!

Notmartha, That would be the goal. No decisions have been made yet by anyone. There have only been multiple suggestions offered for different problems. Not all of the solutions will be embraced, nor should they be. If it becomes too difficult, no one will host a co-op.

Buried Treasures, Thanks for the guidance. Does your lovely bride know that you refer to her as a data dork??????? LOL

1Anjl, Thank you, that would be great! But it might be too much work for you alone. Maybe it could be split in half or broken down into functions and 1 or 2 others could help you.

I use that moniker with her permssion. She can do some incredible things with excel, including pivot tables and such.

Hopefully we'll get some direction from DG tomorrow.

Did he say privet tables.............

hehe. No. Pivot Tables.

no pivot tables - I would like to continue to use Excel for my spreadsheets - when you upload them - however - the programming does not upload - so when you update -you still update from your computer not Google -

I think the suggestions are too much - like trying to fix the wheel - I think all suggestions not related to the two areas that Dave is concerned about should be tabled for now - give him something he can work with - not a massive document on micromamagement that he has to wade thru -

some of the suggestions kind of go together - like computer programming -- IF, THEN, ALSO - computer logic -IF the number listed is greater than 0 THEN do this - no then do that -- programming is binary - 0 , 1 - NO, YES - It would be more helpful if they are grouped this way

At least separate under different headings - like - complaints, hosting -

Some posts are even taken out of context - we never talked about a limit to items offered and participants - except in relation to inexperience or rating of host -- Such as IF Host does not have high rating THEN

I get very discouraged when I look at the huge list on top post - a certain amount of this has to be faith in each other - not micromanagement - you can't make rules for every situation - you can make it so frustrating that no one wants to host

Morals are how you behave when you know no one is watching you.

And, as I have said before: "Locks (rules) only keep honest people honest"

Seems the main (only?) problems come from those whose morals are "out of place?"

How does one fix(control?) "bad" moral decisions in other humans?

If we solve that problem, we can "save the planet," too!

From what I have seen of the quality of the folks here on DG, there's great hope for both!

I agree - unfortunately - when something happens - we can't control - that turns out bad for us - a lot let their worst come out - I think this is a major problem -you can't control what happens - we can control ourselves - so maybe instead of trying to figure out how to handle everything that could go wrong - set up a code of conduct - If you have a complaint, etc. -- if someone acts like a child - they get treated like a child - like sports- put in penalty box - suspended, etc.

WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK?

I agree.....penalty box and suspend.

Be very straight forward up front as to what will happen....this just might keep away some of those that want to create problems, for fear of losing their membership.

Penalties are an excellent deterrent, but have to be uniformly upheld.

I recall college psych 101 saying humans behave in one of three "states:" Child, Adult or Parent.

Depending on which "state" you assume, you can expect others to assume the related "state."

For example, act like a Parent, expect childish responses. Act like a Child, expect parental responses. However, act like an Adult, expect adult responses.

I too have been waiting for admin to weigh in and narrow down the list of possible solutions. I'm hoping we've got enough input etc. that maybe Dave could decide whether the co-op forum stays in its current form (in a forum where the self-promotion restriction of the AUP applies) or whether it gets moved to "Classifieds" or to a similar venue. That decision would immediately simplify the list of how to deal with vendor issues.

The member complaint issues and solutions fall into several categories, I think... let me see if I can organize them so they look like several solutions with various options rather than 30+ different solutions... I probably repeated a couple of suggestions under more than one category, and I may have missed some... :-)

OK, I think I identified 5 areas where we think things can be improved. Hopefully this helps to simplify the discussion a bit.

(A) Make the "at your own risk" etc. disclaimer more obvious so everybody will read and acknowledge it.
5)Create a Disclaimer "Button" that all members have to accept prior to co-op participation.
30)include the disclaimer/buyer beware clause IN BOLD in both the interest and ordering threads' opening post.


(B) Reduce the number of complaints reaching admin by dealing with them at another level. (Which solution(s) are implemented depends in part on how hands-off admin wants to be.)
1) Ignore them
2) Have the Administration reply to them with a "form" email restating the "buyer beware" policy.
3)Have Administration forward all co-op complaints to a volunteer member group to review and answer appropriately.
4)Have complaints automatically sent to a volunteer "Buffer Group" who filters & resolves the easy ones & forwards the others to Administration. Install a button in the co-op page that leads directly to a Dmail box for the Buffer Group.
6)Staff the co-ops with a rotating group of moderator/monitor/stewards to quell potential problems.
13)Obtain and post each vendor's guaranty and let the member and vendor resolve issues
14)Temporarily close troubled co-ops and while volunteers determine whether to close it permanently.
20)Apply some consequence to those draining DG resources by bringing unwarranted or invalid co-op complaints

(C)Reduce spillover of co-op problems into other forums and/or Dmail (I'm not talking about simple exchanges of Dmail between host and participant but about nasty Dmails or Dmails that try to involve the rest of the DG community in the dispute.)
6)Staff the co-ops with a rotating group of moderator/monitor/stewards to quell potential problems.
10)Apply some visable consequence to errant members such as temporary suspension from co-op participation.
11)Enlist the help of membership to diminish spillover of co-op issues onto other forums. Potential prohibition from co-op participation for persistant violators.
12)Disable, limit or Suspend Dmail capability for abusers
14)Temporarily close troubled co-ops and while volunteers determine whether to close it permanently.

(D) Improve how co-ops are organized and run in order to reduce complaints.
7)Standardize and improve the co-op processes and communications, such as spreadsheets and opening informational posts
8)Establish some eligibility criteria for Hosts to ensure well run co-ops
9)Require back up hosts on all co-ops should a need for help arise
16)Transfer the responsibility for refunds to a third party such as Paypal, Credit Card or Shipping Company.
17)The use of a post co-op survey to inspire overall improvements, (allow for feedback rating the host and vendor, affording members an arena for venting.)
18)Impose restrictions on the # of participants and offerings per co-op to ensure control. Limit Hosting to one co-op at a time.
19)Organize a volunteer group of experienced co-op hosts as a resource for those wanting to learn co-op hosting.
27)Create a permanent thread in the co-op forum that is a co-op buyer's guide. Post a link to the guide in the opening post on both the interest and order threads.
28)Create a permanent thread in the co-op forum that is a Hosting guide.
29) Require hosts to provide a breakdown of co-op costs on the spreadsheet and attach a copy of the payment receipt for the purchase of co-op offerings.
Suggestions regarding vendor guarantees:
13)Obtain and post each vendor's guaranty (so participants have this info before ordering)
22)Allow vendor run co-ops and require them to offer guaranties.
23)For guaranty seekers, have hosts offer some co-op items in classifieds at a higher price with guaranties. Provide a link to the ad in the co-op thread.


(E) Use/improve feedback so people can make an informed choice about participating in a co-op with a particular host or vendor.
15) Implementation of a rating icon (stars, thorns) after a host's member ID to apprise members of past performance.
17)The use of a post co-op survey to (inspire overall improvements,) allow for feedback rating the host and vendor, affording members an arena for venting.
21)Create a Co-op Watchdog similar to the Garden Watchdog to air grievances except for Fraud and AUP violations
24)Create an entry in Garden Watchdog for all co-op vendors and hosts.
31) Expand the current feedback system to allow for different or multiple posts between trading and coops.

I have an additional comment to make about penalties. I think admin has already said they are not willing to remove or suspend a subscriber altogether for co-op related violations. If it's possible to block somebody's participation from the co-ops only, then I think that might be an excellent way to handle consequences (like a penalty box, but with suspension from the game only rather than being kicked off the team).

That's one reason why, if we move co-ops to a commercial venue like the Classifieds, I think they need their own separate forum/section... that way, people could potentially be blocked from the "group purchase" ads without being blocked from all of Classifieds.

I think at this point we only have a "maybe" on whether or not it's possible to block a member/subscriber from a particular forum.

Thanks, Critter, I wanted to do that, but could not find the time.

Kitty lover, I think that a code of conduct is a great idea, but I do believe that there have to be some absolute no-nos, because some people will interpret the code to suit their objectives, no matter how much it inconveniences the rest of us.

No one is trying to limit co-ops to only one type of spreadsheet. Other members volunteered to make templates to fit different situations. 1Anjl is the first person, to say she'll put the "how to" in writing. Other forms of instruction have been offered, but the place to start seems to be offering some templates for viewing.

Regarding the suggestion to limit the # of items offered, that was mentioned several times, sometimes both within & without the context of new hosts. In taking the time to read the existing co-op primer, it is also printed there.

Being the "keeper" of the list, I don't agree with or advocate all of the suggestions. But if members took the time to propose them & other members agreed with them, they were added. I've repeatedly asked folks to comment if they feel I've misinterpreted anything.
The whole point of this exercize is not to make hosting a co-op impossible , but to give the administration enough possible ideas to form a frame work that will minimize their headaches and inspire them to permit the continuation of co-ops in some form.

Debsroots and WNYwillieB make excellent points regarding the enforcement of the rules. As many members have pointed out, some of the problems have arisen because Administration had not been enforcing the existing rules.

At this point, I think that not getting any direction from the administration is becoming detrimental to this process. Concerned members patience and tolerance are wearing thin.

Critter, thanks for breaking it down into manageable chunks for those of us following along. I think the brainstorming session has been very fruitful, there are some great ideas that address the two areas of concern for administration and a host of helpful ideas that would potentially make 'group buying' better.

Perhaps we should just wait for Dave and his team to let us know where we're headed. They've followed the discussion and coops have been reopened. Practicing patience in this instance would probably be to our advantage.

Thanks Critter. Nicely done. Patti

I couldn't have managed it without Stormy's list! She's been going above and beyond, trying to keep track of all the ideas we've been generating here. Hopefully this will let us get some direction from admin, and then we'll have a focus or two to go forward with.

4 "Flowers" and no 'Thorns" for each of you. Patti

Great list Critter!! Think it is time to stop talking and start doing but you are correct that we should not waste our time and energy on something that admin is not behind. BTW, if I have not thanked all of you for your hard work am doing it now.... without you we would not have the possibility of getting the forum back. :^)

I am certain that Admin IS watching this forum, but they are also busy with their lives, and all the other work they have going on just to maintain the site.

At least for now we have the co-ops in place as they were..... and it may take alot of time for them to come up with a reasonable plan of action to 'fix' the broken parts.


so I do think patience is the key.

I keep checking back here to see if there is any concrete feedback from Admin... does anyone know if it will be posted here? I dont have time to watch all of the forum! LOL! so if its not posted here...can someone come back an put a link to wherever it IS posted?! pweeze :o)

Thank you to both Stormyla & critter fo all your hard work!

and it will be quite a while before I can do a google how to thread....just found out I have more medical procedures to enure for the next 6 to 8 weeks :( so trying to just get caught up on the rest of my to-do list first :o) maybe the hospital has wireless internet and I can take my laptop?! that would keep me from boredom for sure! lol!

Thanks critter for organizing the list - breaking it down - that helps -it doesn't look as overwhelming now - and Yes - thanks Stormyla for all your hard work

The lists and the categorization does make it easier for us to wade through everything--thanks!

The vendor issue list got pretty long and complicated also, but I think it boils down to two types of solutions:

1. We move co-ops to a commercial DG venue, making an exception for them in the AUP just like for the Classifieds. This makes vendor "shilling" issues moot and makes it easier for DG subscriber-vendors to participate.

2. Co-ops remain in a non-commercial area of DG, and we work out various ways to try to reduce the problem while still encouraging more participation by DG subscriber-vendors (as suppliers only, not as hosts or co-hosts). There are a lot more "gray areas" if we go this way, no matter how many rules we develop.

I vote for #1. Except, I know this is not a voting issue. Dave needs to do what works best for his vision for DG and for his sanity and that of his administration. Patti

#1 Does make sense because there is more than two people involved in a coop, money is changing hands and not just plants,seeds for SASEs or just for postage like in the regular forums.

I like option 1 also, but like Patti said, it's an admin decision. Moving co-ops to a commercial area of DG simplifies the vendor issues by making them moot... but it may also require Dave to create a new type of forum for co-ops, since we'd like it to be on a similar footing than classifieds but separate, perhaps with thread capabilities, "accept" buttons, and so forth if possible.

We've generated a lot of great ideas on these threads, and I know we'll be able to help Dave refine them into something that works. I'm less skeptical now about finding a future for co-ops here, and I hope he is too! :-)