alternatives to co-ops

Offhand, I'm thinking that nonsubscriber vendors would have to have a subscriber hosting for them, if it's to be a subscriber-only forum. I don't know if this sort of forum is feasible under the AUP, but if an exception could be made in the same way the classifieds forum was created, it might turn out to be a way to have our cake and eat it too.

If something goes in classifieds with specific details as to item and price and it is listed as bulk only with cancelation if quota not met then there should be no need for chatter or a forum. No chatter means no one can start problems.
I am a newbie. I would like to think I can one day participate in a co-op. I have been reading the forum and I see too many that were not specific up front and that required a lot of chatter to clear things up and more chatter invites more probs.
Bulk sales in classifieds would work for folks who know how to be specific and be organized. Folks who can't will never have a successful buy and eventually have to give up.

And then I go and post to the wrong thread. ;) Opps!

This message was edited Nov 10, 2008 12:48 PM

Kathy, there are so many details to work out on a co op that everyone needs to know about. I'd find it really hard to do one without lots of communication. The more you buy, the cheaper things are, so its a matter of "I want 20 of these, anyone else want some?", then a couple of "ok, add 10 to my order to meet quota", and "I'll take some if they'll grow in shade, will they?"....and on and on. The chat facilitates getting the the best price. Then we quickly become buddies and can't contain our flower greedy excitement, LOL.

One time I did purchase 25 bulbs each of 5 different varieties of lilies, and asked if 4 other people were interested in splitting the order, 5 bulbs of each variety for all 5 people. We got a good deal, but when I did a co op through the sister, wholesale part of the company, 45 participants bought 4076 bulbs at tremendous prices. It went beyond my wildest dreams, and we got bulbs that normally sell for $3-5 each, for less that $1 each. Through all the chat we generated a lot of buying power.

One issue I can't think of a way around, is people bringing conflicts into the forums. Everybody loves to share their excitement about the new plants they're getting, someone inevitably asks "where did you get them?". We gripe when we get cruddy plants from a mail order source, so I'm sure conflicts that evolve from any garden related purchase would end up being discussed here. Unfortunately, I don't think people can be expected to police themselves.

..that's what I'm having trouble finding a way around. Gonna keep wracking my brain though.
Neal

Dave.... Figure you probably been out planting more wheat today and are trying to have some supper and relax with the wife, but when ya get a minute, could ya come on in , we don't care if ya got dirt under fingernails still, we all do. : )

Between this thread and the fixing threads, are we getting anywhere close. Anythign ya see ya like, anything we can totally forget. So we can know if we gettign close or have to go in another direction.

I have only ever run co-ops with tropical fish. It is a great way to get a good price on species that do not make it to small shops. I really loved doing them. I would very much like to be able to participate in some good deals with plant co-ops. I pray that you can all work out the logistics to everyone's satisfaction. I am new to dave (less than 30 days) thanks to a birthday gift subscription. I have used Daves for a long time as a non paying member. I look forward to the new establishment of the co-ops. No pressure guys but you got til spring.

What features would make the Classifieds or the Marketplace more appealing?

As this is the alternatives thread, what can we do to these features to make them a viable alternative? (let's give Dave something to work with)

The first thing I see is to be able to post questions or responses of some sort in the Classified area, correct?

Yes, being able to start a thread rather than just placing a single post in the Classifieds would be great. The only issue I see with this is how to handle the need to start continuation threads when the initial one gets too long for dial-up, or how to put orders, shipping, etc. on threads of their own to improve organization.

I wonder, would it be possible for a classified ad to work more like a DG article? With the articles, there's the body of the article itself, with photos, and then at the bottom of the article is a place where threads can be started. Each article is essentially its own little forum. The difference would be that only the person who places the ad would have the ability to start threads below the body of the ad. To conserve server space, perhaps the ads could be deleted within a certain amount of time (after the co-op concludes).

Anybody have thoughts on this?

I like it Critter, gives each advertiser/host lone responsibility. No more reason for people to complain to admin.

Wouldn't this also solve the 'shill' problem? If a vendor wants to host they are paying just like any other advertiser?

Just discussed this issue with my DH... we don't know if this is even a viable solution, but thought I'd throw it out there, and see if anyone understands what I'm saying.

What say, Dave's Garden hires a part or full time employee to just handle coops. She/He could search out the vendors who will supply the best price for the plants/seeds/gardening supplies we want. The vendor would pay Dave's Garden a fee to help cover his/her salary to run the coop, and he/she would receive a percentage from each of us participants to also help cover his/her salary. All coops would go through this paid employee to offer the specials to DG paid members only.

I know that even if I had paid an extra 10% of my order on the coop I participated in, I still would have save a ton of money... given what all those 37 plants would have cost me on the retail market.
I don't know about some people, but I would gladly pay an extra .40 cents for a $4.00 plant, that would have cost me $12 retail.

Plus, a vendor would agree to pay the employee 10% of a $5000 coop that lasted a week to take orders... even if he had to pad the price a bit to cover that. We'd still save money: that $4 plant just became $4.80... still a deal in my book.

Critter, Hostesses who are not vendors could still have their name listed in Garden Watchdog for good feedback, complaints, and rebuttals.

BJ, that might work for group discount opportunites, where the vendor gives a special DG discount and handles all the shipping... but a lot of co-ops involve reshipping in order to realize savings. I'm not sure I'd want to run co-ops like a one person business... I see hosting as a labor of love, and I think one person would burn out really fast trying to handle all the details of all the co-ops, even if they were getting 10% of the action. Also, I'm not sure I've saved that much on some co-ops to cover additional costs... if I'm saving 25% but having to cover double shipping, I've only got about a 10% savings at the end sometimes.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work... but I think the idea needs more thought/discussion.

Melody-
I don't know that the marketplace or classified ads should be restructured to handle co-ops. They each have their own clientele and I'd hate to try to shoe horn in the co-ops. I'd prefer a new forum for discount buys on a commercial platform which would:
1) have the same type of interest, chat, order and shipping threads
2) allow member vendors to participate, with or without hosts, offering their own or others products
3) allow for all the different kinds of deals that we have tried to force into the co-op model - including discounts, shipping by the vendors, money collection by the vendor, or whatever work split the host and vendor agree on
4) have, as Mike on the fix it thread said best, an enter at your own risk warning and agreement for participation
5) have tools, developed by those much more computer savvy than myself, to help with spreadsheets, etc
6) advice for both hosts and participants, perhaps a mentoring program
7) a complaint resolution tool that simply eludes me - the committee concept is not being embraced by admin, but there should probably be some sort of process. I have to write a debriefing process for unhappy losing vendors at work - maybe I'll come up with something after being immersed in that for the next couple of weeks (I know everyone envies me that task)

Speaking on the vendor side, the reason for the deep discounts is because we're shipping it as a bulk order. If we ran a classified ad, and had to ship to each individual, the discount wouldn't be nearly as deep.

You will also lose the true wholesale opportunities with places like Agri-Starts, and others that produce plants in cell packs. They're wholesale only, so you won't find them in the Classifieds or Market Place.

Regarding the Market Place, I gave it a shot, but it's really not conducive to anything more than part time sellers, and those funding their plant habits. Admittedly, Dave has said it hasn't been a priority lately, and I'll check it out as it comes together, but right now our best mix is with the Plant Scout, and possibly the new advertising opportunities they're offering.

As a DG member, I've been involved as both a hots and customer. It's sad to see them go, but more puzzling that I didn't notice a big event like there was the last time they were dropped. Last time it was clear that something drastic needed to be done. I didn't see any of that this time.

Bad apples spoiling the bunch and all. Squeaky wheel getting the grease. Maybe the good apples need to keep squeaking. ;-)

Chris

I was thinking - and I came up with an idea - Dave sets up a list like address exchange - one list members/subscribers who would like to be contacted by a vendor offering special discounts, etc for DG members - vendors pay for this list quarterly - maybe $20
Vendors should submit their policies for any guarantees, replacements, etc. so that would be upfront and customers would have to read and agree to terms before purchasing - of course DG Admin would have to approve these before the vendor gets a list
A lot of vendors have their own websites w/systems like paypal , propay, etc. payments and shipments can be tracked



hosts would post interest thread when proposing a co-op - subscriber interested could d-mail host their real e-mail address for her to contact them - the co-op would then take place off DG by e-mail - isolating co-op no spillover-
hosts would have a rating system -stars for positve - x's for strikes - this would go in an area where any participants -on list could see- and be aware - right now we have no idea really - obviously there've been problems - not reflected in the current feedback system - since this hasn't been working - perhaps a way of preventing problems would be --- DG Admin give the hosts a rating by when they are approved
Hosts - should have to have some kind of approval - based on prior co-ops -- hosts paypal acct could have any removal of funds monitored and approved by a mentor- not participating in co-op
Hosts would be limited to one co-op at a time
depending on rating - based on past co-op's - that rating would allow host to have x number of participants and x number of products

I think I have covered most of the issues here -a- no money would disappear
b - no one would be able to take on a drastically bigger co-op than they proved they can do successfully
c- individuals are made aware of the service, etc. status of either vendor or host - if they have nothing but stars OK - if they have even one x that should raise caution
d -Admin oversight - anyone not sticking to rules has resulting consequences for either member, host or vendor - rating changed -
priviledged revoked, etc. -- no complaints fielded - no discussion on any DG thread

Admin - Please Let me know what you think of this alternative.
and thank you for your patience with all of us
Hopefully together we can iron out these problems and preserve a much loved feature that really does enhance our community
Esther Sams



This message was edited Nov 10, 2008 11:55 PM

I have not used the Market Place..have looked and read the forum there. There seems to be too much cunfusion on how it works. Purchasing need to be quick, easy and convenient or people will not use it.

I havent read this thread in a while, as I was busy wrapping up my co-op. but I have several points to make.

This is the alternative thread...where we should be discussing alternatives outside of DG if DG decides to stop all future co-ops from the site.

keeping that in mind... when requesting a separate forum or section of dg set up for co-ops like the articles and discussion .... it isnt removing the Co-ops from DG... what you are suggesting is moving the forum... but the problems still remain. someone will inevitably get upset about something and start hitting up the help desk for answers. I believe that is the whole issue that Dave and Admin are trying to put a stop to.

I dont believe that anything needs to be done to the market place, or to the advertising forum. I just ordered $4500 worth of gloves. there is no way I could buy that much in advance and then sell on the market place, and hope they all sold! so the market place, for that scale of a a co-op would not be feasable at all.

however, if I could purchase an add, and link it to my website, or even to my email to see if there is interest in a co-op for a certain item (gloves) the $5 fee to advertise would be well worth it. that cost divided by the 1074 pair of gloves we just purchased would only be .005 cents per glove. that solution would be doable :o)

As far as the feedback system goes... It is my belief that it is flawed. my experience has been that if you leave negative feedback for a person you are shunned by all their 'dg friends' in forums, in dmail and in email. people do not use the feedback system for fear of this backlash. If the feedback system were anonymous, where only DG Admin can see who it is coming from and intervene if the person feels that the feedback was left for no reason.... that system would work better and more people would be likely to use it. just my opinion :o)

AnjL

Hiya anjl-
When I posted the idea of having a different forum other than co-ops, Fairy1004 nicely booted me over here to discuss. So, I think this is where we discuss alternatives other than fixing the current forum, whether they be in or out of DG.

K, just a thought here. We want to keep Dave away from all headaches, we all want good buys, we all don't like to see negative posts in our community. I've participated in several, most good, a couple bad, but took my lumps.

1. What if, the co-op forum was for interest only.

2. Once interest was determined, the actual co-ops went to another website set up to handle all the features the host needs to run sucessfully ie: forums, spreadsheets ect?

3. We often have used off-site sites for round-ups and it was nice that everything was kept together in one place.

4. I know everyone is not web-savy but there are sites like Freewebs that are very easy to use and can be paid for by the month for a nominal fee that could be split amongst the buyers.

5. This should relieve Dave of all liability and the host could be checked out by our present feed-back system.

Personally, I don't like to see any vendor exluded if I can get a good deal on something I want, but do understand the no-advertising policy here. Would this be considered as such?

Vi

"As far as the feedback system goes... It is my belief that it is flawed. my experience has been that if you leave negative feedback for a person you are shunned by all their 'dg friends' in forums, in dmail and in email. people do not use the feedback system for fear of this backlash. If the feedback system were anonymous, where only DG Admin can see who it is coming from and intervene if the person feels that the feedback was left for no reason... that system would work better and more people would be likely to use it. just my opinion :o)

AnjL "

Good Point!

I think once the interest was determined the thread should be closed and a link posted. It would not pay to start an off-site area without interest. Once done, there would be no area on DG for further discussion.

Another idea would be to keep the off-site site (ex: called DG Deals) going year-round with a few admins (DG mentors or volunteers) there to police it. I for one, would be glad to look into the capabilites and costs involved. I've done a few sites myself and am amazed at the features offered, even paypal buttons can be added.

We DO want to keep this out of Dave's hair yet be able to announce this service. Buyer Beware and all the other goodies could be added in also.

Anything that starts here even as a hyper link is part of Daves and would therefore make some trouble making folks feel that to get satisfaction they need to go to Dave. Anything that is totally offsite would not be part of Dave and would therefore not feel like DG but would feel more like we are going to outsiders. It is really just a matter of will there or won't there be co-ops. Dave can just tell everyone that complaints must go to co-op committee or whatever. If that is not possible then I do not see any way to re-establish co-ops.
The fact that the co-ops have been shut down on multiple occasions will cause some of these jerks to want to make trouble just to prove they can shut it down again. There are some real jerks in the world and see something like that as a claim to fame.

That's a great idea, especially if it could be a forum exempted from the no self-promotion clause of the AUP... or at least don't worry in that forum if somebody might be "shilling" or not (even harder to figure out in the "interest" phase, I'd think). ?

A hyperlink to a coop's hostess site would not be considered part of DG. I can't imagine anyone complaining to DG Admin about a problem there. I mean do people complain to DG Admin when they get shorted a qty of bulbs from BloomingBulb because someone on DG posted a link to a sale page on BloomingBulb? No, of course not.

I'm just trying to explore what Dave may allow under the AUP for hyperlinking to external coop sites and how close it is to the way we are allowed to hyperlink to external retailer offerings. If Coops cannot come back to DG in some form, then I'd like to be discussing what can we do to have coops outside DG with a way to alert gardeners of the opportunity.

I bet Dave has some stories to tell about folks who expected him to make good on orders they did thru a link from here. If we did link away for a co-op it would definitely give Dave legitimate reason to tell folks it is out of his hands.

That is one of the issues that we are working on.

We still get blasted by customers who were ripped off by a company with a bad Garden Watchdog listing. It takes a great deal of explaining to convince the jilted folks that we are simply a feedback service and have no link to the company that took their money/sent dead plants.

We've put on our thinking caps, too while we watch the ideas being floated here.

I'll be honest, I have serious misgivings about using a committee of volunteers to field complaints. It's a case of "be careful what you ask for, because you might just get it." And that goes equally for both sides: those who are volunteering to be part of a committee, and those who think they would like having a peer group hear their grievances and impose sanctions and consequences.

I'm much more interested in ideas that can eliminate more of the complaints, and ideas that redirect complaints back to the parties to settle privately.

For everyone who thinks it's easy or fair to simply say " we told you it was risky", I hope you'll stop for a minute and place yourself in the shoes of a participant who receives dead plants, rotten bulbs, or never receives their order. Or an organizer who gets stuck with a bounced check or a last-minute cancellation from a participant. Some members chalk it up to a lesson learned, and move on. Bless them for their maturity and willingness to turn the other cheek.

But if you were in one of those positions and you grumbled to your friends. Would you want to to be threatened with having your posting privileges suspended? (The expression "adding insult to injury" comes to mind.)

That's why we occasionally find ourselves in the middle of these disputes, where there are no easy solutions: there are always two sides to the story. And we really can't afford to embroil ourselves in these controversies, but we are forced to wade in when the anger threatens to spill over into the forums or spread through the rumor mill.

That takes a huge toll on our small admin team's resources--and I just don't see a committee being able to make better, fairer or more enduring decisions than we can.

Ehhh, we just suit up with our flame-retardant gear and calmly direct them to the GWD where they can publish a scathing review, if that's what they really want to do. (We try to caution them to choose their words carefully, since they will be ultimately responsible for what they write.)

THEN we get to deal with the angry business owner who wants the unpleasant comments removed, because he believes the review is unfair, and he refuses to dignify it with a response. When we explain why we are impartial and can't remove the review just because he doesn't like it, we often have to also explain why we won't remove his entire listing, and why he can't threaten to sue us, just to get his way. Now THAT's a fun day at work ;o)

(((Terry)))

I hope those days are few and far between, my friend.

Edited to add......

at least the flame gear is tax deductible job expense right?

This message was edited Nov 11, 2008 12:06 PM

Terry is so right it may seem simple but....Imagine being a host and getting stuck with a cancelled order that is for a say even $100. I couldn't cover that with out being in big trouble with my DH. I know it has happened...and there can be good reasons for someone to have to cancel so then what do you do?

Well, I just went to www.Freewebs.com and found that you can do this all for free (without a domain name) many clubs do this. I believe you can add more than one administrator and the threads could be monitered by mentors.

I went back to check a forum I had started and would like to show what it can look like. Different topics could be used for seperate co-ops.

Terry, any thoughts about this alternative?

Nanny, there could be several reasons why someone cancels at the last minute. Change in job situation, sickness etc. I prefer to think no one does it for sheer orneriness. I have had a few on the coops I've done who had to cancel for one reason or another. $200 worth on one of them. Generally if you post the extra plants available, they get snapped up quick so the hostess isn't out alot of money.

Brenda, thankfully those days are NOT the norm ;o)

The bottom line for us is with the co-ops is we want to do what makes our members happy, but we have to be responsible with how much of our time and effort we can afford to expend on any one aspect of the site, especially one that has more than its share of ups and downs. (By contrast, the Bookworm is completely devoid of controversy, and BugFiles and PlantFiles RARELY have any attendant drama.)

violabird, thanks, but I'm not sure the issue of reducing and containing disputes can be solved by moving co-ops to another hosting site.

Those involved with some of the Yahoo co-op groups can tell you that building up a membership base by casual word-of-mouth can be slow-going, and from what I saw of one Yahoo group, the setup was a little clunky to navigate; I never could figure out how to get my request for some plants acknowledged. (My apologies to those who know and like that setup--I'm pretty sure it was user-error, but I never got the hang of it.)

Like most websites, we're a little protective of our membership base: we won't let other sites come in and use our forums or memberlist to "cherry pick" members and invite them to join another site, so it's not likely we'd willingly steer everyone to an offsite co-op group. And the closer any group is tied to DG members, the more likely the problems will filter back here.

Oh well, I tried. I didn't mean for the site to be non DG, t'was just a thought ^_^

cat that is exactly my point especially in these uncertain economic times. There can be very good reasons...and yes most time the extras can be sold, but that does need to be a realistic consideration for being a host. And if it is moved of site the extras may not get bought up as quickly.

JUst for anyone who is interested- my fabric coop 'hostess' is often out $$ for people who don't pay- just this month we are still helping her to fill out some $1700 worth of unpaid fabric!!!! That is a scary number for anyone not in the business I am sure.
But our Yahoo group format works well, and we use Google docs for the spreadsheets to keep track of what has been ordered, what has arrived and what has been packaged and is ready to ship. Really eliminates most of the complaining for us, but I do know our hostess fields a ton of questions privately.
All communication is through email- so I would think spillover to DG might be a bit less than you might imagine. Perhaps I am being naive.

We have the market place which is alot of ebayers who moved to it. We have the classified which covers evrything from plants to property sales. We have the coops.

Not quite sure how this would work, but what about the coops for outside vendors ( the non Dg member vendors) and then have have Dg member vendor coops They have to have a tax number to prove to admid they liget. Maybe have it so that the vendors on these coop have to pay a percentage like Market place to Dave. That might cut some of the non vendors. They also pay the advertising fee. Or maybe pay a monthly rent to Dave. That way Dave is just landlord and buyers can't come back on Dave, at least I dont think so.

The vendors could say like.. Is there any intrest in this type of coop, this is what I have , here is my price and my policies. Folsk could post I want in, and when it reaches enough people, vendor could say interest closed.

Vendor then puts up his coop , his price and refudn policies evrythign in black on post. He take sorders collects money and drop ships to cutomers, which is better than non vendor ways.

If cusomer has complaint they deal with vendor. AuP button that it is at risk policies, so look closely at vendor refund policies as DG not involved in transactions and any problems must be settled between vendor and buyer. If vendor policy in black then if problem buyer cna go to court or whatevr, file complaint with Bbb or somethign but takes it off of Dave.

Dg Vendors would have to agree, that if they see a coop say for lily bulbs already in the process. They cannot post an intrest thread for more until the vendor of first coop is finished takign their orders and collecting adn delivering there merchandise. It may mean some vendors have to wait a few months , but at least they get a chance to compete at some point instead of never being asked. That eliminates buyers cancelling on one vendor is they see another vendor a few cents cheaper.

Most al the Dg vendors are very good people and have goo dstuf f and care. It their livelihood that feed sthere families too and they sure aint gonn aspite off their noses for a few cents and be kicked of Dg Member coop.

Just somethign I thought of anyways. Soem folsk here just do not realize how dangerous it is to go off DG. There a few good one sout there but more bad than you can imagine and at leats at Dg you knwo you surroudned by other folks.