alternatives to co-ops

I have been involved in many coops and ALL have gone excellently with the exception of one where the "host" ended up being hostile and a butt, however, that was between us. Which is as it should be as stated at the top of the coop forum. It says, you pay your money, you take your chances. There is no reason for the administration to get involved. I too have enjoyed the comraderie and all the information that is shared during these coops and would be sad to see them go away.

I would think by just linking to a separate thread... and a separate website, that would diminish all complaints to the DG Admin team.

for instance, if I decided to buy something from someon elses website...why would I complain to DG if something went wrong...just because that person placed an ad on this site?! that wouldnt make sense to me at all.
for anything we buy on a website, wether its a co-op or from an online store...it is always buyer beware! I dont see how the backlash would come back to DG for allowing the person or site to advertise here.


If in fact we are allowed to advertise a separate website in the classified ads here (I am waiting for someone from admin to confirm we can~just because someone else did it, doesnt necessarily mean that its allowed) Then the solution is very simple... for a $5 fee we can link to a separate website and conduct the co-op on that website. I am NOT referring to linking to yahoo or someplace like that... I am the host/hostess set up their own website and conduct the co-op exclusively on that website... no dmails and no other link to DG whatsoever....just the advertisement that a co-op is happening for such n such item and a link to the hostesses website.

AnjL

A classified ad can advertise your website and whatever you are selling. You can link to your website and even directly to your product. We do approve each ad so that whatever is being sold is consistent with our AUP. We have many vendors and members who use them with great success. I purchased something just the other day just because I happened to proof the ad and saw something that I wanted.

quote from 1AnjL: " I am the host/hostess set up their own website and conduct the co-op exclusively on that website... no dmails and no other link to DG whatsoever...just the advertisement that a co-op is happening for such n such item and a link to the hostesses website. "



AnjL, I like that idea, takes the problem and responsibility out of Dave' and puts it squarely on the Host or Hostess and/or vendor. I research my vendors in the Watchdog and on other search sites before I even consider opening a co-op. I have never had a problem, although I have to say I have never done live plants. I am also cautious about being in a co-op run by someone who is a new member and who has never run a successful co-op but that's not to say I wouldn't do it. I like the idea of the vendor doing the packing and shipping because that is the worst part of a co-op, plus sometimes the double shipping costs negate any discounts you might receive, mostly if you are shipping large or heavy boxes from the east coast to the west or to Hawaii.

This message was edited Nov 9, 2008 3:33 PM

yay!

then I now have my solution and will be busy setting up a website ^_^

I dont mind the shipping and packaging portion... I believe thats why we get such a great deal in most of the co-ops...as the vender only has to ship to one address. when they are shipping in bulk and we are doing most of the work ourselves (as host/hostess) then we get better savings.

off to create a website now ^_^

Thanks!

AnjL

I think that may work for some - either the vendor or host advertising a co-op held off DG -
Something that I would have liked to have been able to do - probably others have wanted to also - is to extend a discount on non-plant related business that they are in -- my problem is I can't advertise my business here- I would gladly give DGers a 20% discount and free shipping - but the company I'm with does not allow us to pay for advertising on any site - or I would gladly advertise here - and I have never mentioned anywhere on DG before now about my business- so I have never tried to go around or ignore this policy-- but would welcome any suggestions or ideas from Admin

I think for the most part when hosts have used vendors who belong/subscribe to DG - the host has done the bulk of the work - There is a lot of work in doing a co-op - If the vendor actually had to do it - well the prices would probably reflect that - When I hosted the co-op I did - I put in a lot of hours - used three different suppliers - I believe everyone was satisfied - I have seen the same products (peat pellets) in a co-op since for significantly more

This message was edited Nov 9, 2008 4:40 PM

I got about halfway through the coop thing, and my head is reeling. But anyway- although I have not been a member for very long (about 3 months?) and I have not participated in any coops yet (and I guess maybe I won't here-LOL!). But I HAVE been a member of 2 different fabric buying coops for a couple of years now and I do know what makes a good one and what doesn't. (Just fyi- the fabric we buy is REALLY expensive- and it is stuff I can't get anywhere near the sizeable town where I live)
Both of those are organized as Yahoo Groups, and a Paypal account is mandatory, and when someone joins, a 5 cent charge is made to their Paypal account- just to verify that they exist and their address is real, etc. One of my groups is limited to around 100 people, and the prices are terrific- bad thing is sometimes it is hard to fill orders, with fewer people. No one got in without a personal reccommendation from an existing member.
Now when that group was first started- the leader of the group literally absconded with our money for the first buy!!! Around $4000. I personally was out over $100. But we did get our money back, after some key phone calls. Another member took it over and things were peachy after that.
The other one I belong to has something like 800 members and it is a bear to run, this I know. However- the buying power is tremendous. The 'owner' vets all the vendors herself and several we don't buy from anymore- since they had long lead times, or they sent the wrong things or whatever. (Like if they sent dead plants)
She also has some serious rules- like if you sign up for yardage (read plants bulbs etc.)- then it's yours and if you don't pay for it- you are out of the group- like that! Billing happens at the end of each month and you have 48 hours to pay the invoice (unless you make arrangements- she is a reasonable person) or you get kicked out of the group.
(In fact, in July I changed my email address and my paypal address, and forgot to let her know- she sent my bill to the old one, I never got it. I wasn't at the computer much because I was so busy in my garden -LOL- and I missed it completely. Bingo- I got canned too- and I was a 'charter' member- but rules are rules. Recently she reorganized and I was allowed in again- since it was really more of an oversight, than a question of non payment)
But- long story short-I think a coop would work outside of DG, starting a bit small and working upward toward a membership number we would be comfortable with. The downside to this is that there are literally THOUSANDS of products/plants/seeds that DG'ers want, and with a small membership it might be very difficult to agree on enough to make it worthwhile. But if you had one group, vetted everyone in it- and maybe allowed for different members of the group to run different buys - so one person isn't doing all of it- it might work. There is no complaining or moaning in our fabric coop- anyone who does is out. I know how much work it is for the ones running it.

This way Dave is completely out of it- and any deleterious posts that spill over can be deleted from DG. It also might have the added effect of people being willing to use the feedback system on DG- as if a new member wanted to join- they would have to have some minimum feedback number on DG. (This is how many of my Yahoo Groups worked-you had to have a minimum positive feedback number from EBay to be allowed to participate, as many are about selling/buying from each other) Feedback numbers from EBay could be allowed as well- if you all agree. (It does show good intent as a buyer or seller-at least it used to)

Kathy

yes, but dave has already said that we cannot post a link to the yahoo site....

KittyLover, you made some good points, and I appreciate your sharing your experience with those fabric co-ops. If we can't use Yahoo, maybe we can find another offsite place that would be OK to use (the way Anjl can use a website she created).

Sounds like everyone has some interesting ideas that may work! I'm so glad Dave's giving us another chance! IF we can get it worked out to his satisfaction! He shouldn't have to be burdened with complaints from anybody. When it plainly says AT YOUR OWN RISK, why bother him with it? You punched your own buttons!
Keep your thinking caps on, I would, but I'm no good at thinking!

I agree, I have seen some really good input here.

Sorry, posted in the wrong place.

This message was edited Nov 9, 2008 7:38 PM

Some really good ideas coming out of this thread. LOL I can't create a website tho and one day I'd like to hostess another co-op so those of us who aren't webmaster savvy would have to address that concern before attempting one. Mine was only a mini co-op, just a few flats of hardy geraniums. But it was a good experience, gave me a glimpse into just how much work goes into carefully packaging baby plants so that they can reach their destination intact and it gave me a whole new respect for those who can do the large ones and pull them off successfully.

I think we're definitely on the right track here though, keep the ideas coming.

Do check out the thread regarding fixing what we have, too, DianaT
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/921974/

(what? A hardy geranium co-op and I missed it....ooooo....)

When the co-op forum was closed so abruptly I truly felt that I had been hit between the eyes with a board and had to step back for a while. Thanks to all of you for working to find solutions! I have not really looked at the classifed ads or the marketplace and do not really know how they are run.

A solution to this could be a two part process. Someone could run a general interest ad to see if a vendor would be willing to offer a particular product at a bulk discount or end of the year sale. If the person got contacted by the vendor they could figure out what the prices or discounts would be and run a general interest ad with that information. Any cost to the host for the ads would be included in the cost of the co-op and divided equally between participants. I would also suggest very specific guidelines for both host and participants. Such as an "accept" button for participants that is very specific as to the rules and expections. A "guide to running a successful co-op" with an accept button for each co-op and an experienced co-host could be one of the requirements for a first time host.

If there are problems a committe of two people that would serve for a period of three months could be appointed. That would be eight people a year and should certainly be do-able. If whiny type problems were received, direct that person to the "accept agreement" and ENFORCE it and I bet the whining would stop. For real problems that arise the co-moderators would have limited authority to resolve the dispute without the need for admin to step in unless it was really serious.

Since I do not know anything about how the classifieds/marketplace work I am sorry if this is incredibly stupid or way off base but hopefully could be a starting point.

Thanks 4paws, going to read it now.

(Aww, never mind about the geraniums, it was a blip on the screen a couple of years ago but I enjoyed it tremendously. I'm not going to tell you that it was for hardy geranium Victor Reiter Jr...oops ;-) )

Anyway, it would be wonderful to keep our co-op forum intact if at all possible so I'm off to read that thread now.

I posted this in the fix it forum. Ooops
I have been giving this some thought. Why are we trying to fix co-ops, which are obviously broken and which I, quite frankly, can't ever see Dave allowing again? Why don't we create something new? Not marketplace or the classified, which are too restrictive. Something that allows us to use member vendors, even if Dave requires a fee, and get the admin team out of the complaint business.
Speaking of which, what happens with complaints on Marketplace and the classifieds? Let's do something similar for our bulk purchase consortium.
We could propose rules, I like the governance committee idea (sorry to disagree with Melody), and have it be more member run.
What we all must remember is that no matter what we do, someone will complain. There is no perfect system. If DG has a zero tolerance policy for complaints, this whole thing is dead before it hits the floor.


This message was edited Nov 9, 2008 10:12 PM

True about no links to a yahoo site- but I was thinking it would work by 'word of mouth' so to speak- and by personal rec's by existing members. Dave might let us have a week perhaps to get people together and from then on- really by invite only. (unless someone takes it on themselves to search Yahoo groups). This is how my fabric coops work- no advertising or links anywhere that I know of, and there is still usually a waiting list.

I'm thinking if a Classified ad concerning a group purchase simply said "dmail me if you're interested", actual email addresses could then be shared privately, and whatever forum or group site being used could be revealed then without any issue of posting links that aren't allowed. A link to the vendor would be helpful for members to see if they would be interested.

The main issue is getting word out to DG members that its going on- the number of plantaholics here is what gives our co ops such buying power. Just a matter of diverting all business and discussion of it somewhere else.

'Invite only' is an interesting concept, as I a myself have been invited to particpate in some of the co-ops - but what about newbies? I only joined last year and knew nothing about the co-ops when I joined and now I find myself loving the co-ops. Perhaps a place on DG to sign up for these invitations would work and then it would be up to the person that was invited as to whether they would want to participate in a specific event or not.

I have put together a couple of amateur websites in the past, -if this is the direction that is ultimately decided upon, I would be happy to help in this venture, so count me in.

Addtionally it is a very fine line between whining and a legitimate problem - but I agree the 'enter at your own risk' regardless is the only way.

Carolyn

My concern with classifieds is that it doesn't give us a thread to work things out - we'd have to answer the same questions over and over. I like the idea of a new type of forum where you pay to post (if that is what it takes), but you can put up different types of buying opportunities that are outside of the model co-op currently in place. I worked with several vendors and each wanted a different distribution of work in order to offer the discount. And personally, I'd like the vendors to ship the product, especially live plant material. They are better at it than I am, and shipping is hard on plants. In the co-op forum, I have to worry about how much work it appears the vendor is doing, even if I come home every night and spend a few hours answering questions, gathering money and addresses and keeping the vendor informed. The distinction between "shill" and host sometimes blurs.
So, if we were willing to pay if a bulk purchasing opportunity actually proceeds (not just for the idea), would we be able to get a forum similar to co-ops, with interest, order, chat and shipping?

I think Dave would be willing to listen to suggestions about how to improve/change the Classifieds or the Marketplace in order to better accommodate co-ops. Actually, I do like the idea of creating a "Co-op opportunities" tab that's similar to Classifieds but separate, to keep group purchase opportunities easy to find and easy to distinguish from other ads. The distinction between a classified ad and a co-op ad would (I think) be the requirement for certain numbers to be met in order to get the discount.

Moving the co-ops to a clearly commercial venue should take the pressure off admin (I don't know if they get a lot of complaints about classified ads or marketplace issues). Also, on a commercial page it seems like it should be possible for vendors to offer their own co-ops without violating the AUP. ?

It would be easy for Dave's Garden to host a separate "website area" for Co-Ops, where when you click on the link to the Co-Ops area, a DISCLAIMER can pop-up stating that you are LEAVING DAVE'S GARDEN and entering into a DIFFERENT Co-Op site, AND by clicking the pop-up you AGREE to the Terms of Service. Seems executing a punishment is problematic. That needs to be addressed, also.

Of course, there would still be the same evil problem persisting, unless there was a way to report wrong-doings and effectively administer the rules and punishments.

I don't see how the evil spill-over of negativity into Dave's Garden would ever be solved. Except to say that if they complain about the Co-Op in a place OTHER than where such complaints can properly be lodged (GardenWatchdog), then they be expelled. Permanently. I think the "three strikes" rule is inappropriate, personally.

What is the difference from members coming on DG and informing about Bluestone's May Clearance Sale, or BloomingBulbs Spring Order Early Sale and someone posting information about a coop opportunity? Coops, in name, are suppose to benefit all the members and no one makes a profit but the vendor right? Commercial/retailer sales are definitely promotion in my book, albeit innocent and done from one gardener to others to help find good deals. Isn't a coop opportunity the same thing really?

I know I'm over-simplifying it, but it does make me wonder.

I think the first question to be answered is what is a co-op? Does that name describe all the different things we have seen on the co-op forum? What about "Discount opportunities for DG members only" - that type of set up would allow different types of offerings and be a potential boon to membership numbers. It could be sorted into vendor offerings and host sponsored savings.

I think the issues come in to play when people are sending their money to a co-op host, rather than the vendor. It is my opinion that any time there is a transaction of that nature, there are inherent risks involved. It still floors me that people bothered to flood the admins even with the disclaimers that these were "buy at your own risk" affairs, so I am having a hard time even thinking of a way that this could be handled that a non-vendor could manage.
As someone mentioned before, without the actual buying power a business would provide, it is nigh impossible for someone to come up with the cash it would require to place a bulk order, and even if they could, it would be FAR too risky for an individual to do without already having an idea of how many people would want to buy what...for the current classified system to work. I, too, found the threads helpful especially when trying new things, or clarifying confusion.

I think the idea of a screen where you have to click on a authorization stating you have read the rules and excuse DG from liability is a good start. It is as good as a signed waiver, if I am not mistaken.
I think that the feedback system would be a good way to moniter who you buy and sell to. I think as a host, you should have the right to exclude someone who is a problem, just as businesses retain the right to not serve people. And as a consumer, you always have the right to not purchase again, and if you had a bad experience, leave feedback and not participate again. It should go without saying that one should only make big purchases from a known/trusted source.
If there is nastiness spilling over, I think those people should be warned, and subsequently removed if it persists. I don't care how long someone has been a member..if they are causing problems, and making the forum a less pleasant place, they need to suffer the consequences, not the community as a whole.
(I know I am coming across as a bit of a hardnose, but apparently, that firmness is neccessary, since being too nice wasn't effective.)
I don't know all the ins and outs of vendor-sponsored co-ops, or why they were such a bad thing, so I can't address that aspect.....

Langbr-no self promoting is the difference-if one of say worked for Bluestone, then that would be against the AUP, but since we don't we can share with each other....if I understand the AUP correctly...

I think someone suggested that if it's decided to have a "committee", that the members of that committee be changed every three months. I personally think that's a good idea. That way noone will be wielding to much power to decide who will get chastized, if necessary. JMHO

Wrong thread sweetie:) That is the fixing it thread, this is for alternatives-ways to acheive the same thing w/o co-ops....

Sorry, can't find that thread!

Here ya go:)

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/921974/

Fairy - if I wanted to do a group purchase outside of DG from an overseas supplier and invited a few DG friends I thought might be interested to participate to help defray some costs and they came to DG and posted about the group purchase (read: coop) to see if others might be interested, it would not be okay according to what Dave & Terry have said previously. I guess I'm looking to understand how that is considered self-promoting but posting about retailer sales is not. To me they are very similar if not the same. It is informing fellow gardeners about a good buying opportunity. Right?

I'm trying to find an alternative to having the actual coops hosted on DG because that seems to be the way to remove all the headaches that Admin has to deal with. Cooperatives require members/participants and DG is a tsunami of potential cooperative buyers. But I don't see a way that it could be accomplished until I can understand the differentiation between sale blurbs and coop blurbs. I suppose a Classified Ad is one way to do it. Kind of like a "Buyers Wanted" post. Maybe that is really the simplest solution.

Did anyone else see a light bulb just come on? LOL

I thought the removal from DG seemed to be what Admin would like to happen as well,since they have been down every road. But, your right I don't understand the subtle differences. What does the AUP allow? A website was mentioned, is a website o.k? As long as the site paid for advertising here at DG.

There is an explicit exception to the self-promotion section of the AUP for classifieds. What I would look for is another exception for whatever we would call the new co-op section:

I too think it might be worth considering a "group purchase" forum that's similar to the classifieds but allows threads rather than single posts. Anybody could participate, regardless of vendor status, and the main organizer could be a vendor (maybe a vendor-subscriber?) or a non-vendor subscriber. If it's clearly a commercial sort of forum, that might eliminate a lot of the headaches associate with the co-op forum, where people seem to assume admin has some responsibility regardless of any notice or disclaimer.

I realize I'm posting about alternatives as well as making "fix it" suggestions on the other thread, but I think it's worth looking at this from every possible angle (and playing a bit of devil's advocate at times also).

Diane - couldn't the coop itself be done off DG on private websites as has been suggested with chat forums, electronic spreadsheets, etc and only a purchased Classified Ad is the only presence on DG about a coop opportunity? Much like posts about retailer sales. Only difference being the small fee to make the Classified Ad.

DB, here is what I envision and I'm not real sure it would be considered acceptable. If DG would allow for a brief time (written permission from an officer of Dave's Garden) For the people who have stayed through this, worked passed co-op, those who are working hard for them to remain. Allow those people the time to get a website together, their committees, and basic set up. DG members would be allow to join the co-op and alerted through the Ads that a new co-op selection has started. The co-op website would be created by the people of Dg for the people of DG, but no other affiliation with DG admin. Templates are available for websites that would allow our chatter about the co-op selections to continue. Terry, what are the problems with this? Is it worth trying to work out?

oops, cross posted...what langbr said :0)

Actually, my husband was toying with a website to make the job easier for the hosts. He did it like a regular checkout website - hosts post pictures, people go through, make choices and it automatically calculated cost and put stuff into a spread sheet for the host (I think). But, I don't know that DG will allow that since it might be seen as somehow approved by DG. There may also be issues on what they can link to based on their agreement with the venture capitalists.
I think moving it to a commercial platform inside DG, perhaps with some enhancements to make the process easier would be the best.
But, things will go wrong, people will complain, plants will die (usually by my hand). And I don't know what admin's tolerance level is for that (well, they probably don't care about my plants).
Off to the greenhouse to water...before I kill them too.

I have been posting on the Fix-It thread. But not sure there is a way to fix the main issues, so I popped in over here. I really am liking the idea of a Group Purchase Forum. How would non-member vendors be made aware of it?

The best solution may be to move it to a commercial platform. As stated above there will always be issues and somebody not happy.