What's up with the Weed Killers?

I used to be able to give a few squirts on the grass/weeds growing in the gravel on the drive and kill them dead. ....Now, I may get a few 'burnt' looking parts or some droop but on the whole, it doesn't look like I even attempted. What do you use? How long does it take to work? I've tried all the 'B-Gones" for weeds and for Brush and Round-Up too.

I haven't had much luck with weed killers either this year. The first bought "killed weeds for six months". It didn't even turn them brown until the second time around when we doubled the recommended strength. Then they only stayed brown for a week or two max. The last we bought was RoundUp. At least the sprayed areas have stayed brown for three weeks now. It's been dry.

We have long driveways. Loose rock or packed rock; no concrete. In the past we used a little diesel fuel added to the mix. That knocked them down for a few months but not all summer. Back then, the weed killer did a better job also.

Either the weeds have gotten tougher or the weed killers aren't as strong any more.

That is what I have used it for - the gravel drive..I have a green strip right down the middle. I followed the directions - feel bad about using chemicals as it is.

Does anyone have a more environmentally friendly way to take care of the weeds? I really can't put cardboard or papers down the middle of the drive like I would in an area that I want to cultivate/prep for planting.

Some other approaches are boiling water, vinegar (works better if you apply it while the sun's on the weeds, also there's a stronger vinegar than what you normally find at the grocery store, if you can find it that'll work better), and there are also propane torch devices like the Weed Dragon. All of these will kill the top growth of the weed, but for perennial weeds that have deep tap roots they don't typically kill the roots so the weed can come back. And of course there's always hand pulling!

Since you're only putting it on a gravel driveway, you could try this:

http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/peroxide-garden.html

I believe you have to go to a pharmacy to get the 10% solution. The bottles sold in most stores is only 3%.

If you want to kill roots and all, and have tried both 2,4 D AND RoundUp (glyphosate), you must not be applying the products according to the label instructions. Kitchen remedies will often kill the top growth, but when the plant regrows from the roots, you will have it right back again.

Thank you - already have a large supply of the HP - for the pond.

Hand Pulling - have done plenty of that. And, it comes up so readily out of the gravel - very rewarding - but way too big a job -- it would take me a month --and then time to start again! The strips of weed/grass are about 3 feet wide and several hundred feet at least.

DP - I absolutely did follow the directions. I am compulsive about reading directions and exact measurements. (Comes from dispensing medications I guess.) I don't know what 2, 4 D is. I used Weed-B- Gone, when that didn't work..Brush B Gone, and also RoundUp. I used RoundUp last because I heard that it took a long time as opposed to the other two --I applied it last weekend --so still hopeful. But..... I think things still looking too healthy.

You can do a Google for 2,4-D. It's a herbicide for broadleaf weeds, and the active ingredient in Weed Be Gone. Roundup will kill grasses. I can't imagine why these products don't work for you. The older formulation of RoundUp took several days to work. The newer formulation acts within 24 hours. Maybe you just haven't given the 2,4-D enough time. Look on your label and you will see that term. The D stands for a long chemical name.

When DH uses Roundup Extended Control, it does kill all the grass. We have a gravel driveway that's a quarter mile long with the centerline of weeds/grass, so I understand about not wanting to weed by hand--waaaay too much work! Nothing works permanently for us and I'm sure that's because new weed seeds are continually blowing in to take the place of the ones you sprayed earlier. In talking about this with DH last night, I suggested that perhaps we should try a different approach this time (it is time to spray again). After he sprays with the Roundup Ext. Control, I'm going to wait about one month and then apply Preen to prevent new weed and grass seeds from sprouting. Still won't be permanent but might give us relief for a little longer period of time.

Good Idea Nature.

Definitely a good idea to use a preeemergent like Preen if you're always getting new seeds blown in, that'll help you out a lot, and if you reapply on a regular basis (following pkg directions) it can do a great job keeping the new weeds down. I don't know why you'd need to wait a month after the Roundup though, if you've got new weed seeds still germinating at this time of the season I'd get it out there as soon as you can.

I'll wait a month because the Roundup Extended Control has something in it to keep seeds from germinating for a while. I might as well get all the benefit I can from it since it cost so much. I'll apply the Preen later to pick up where the Roundup leaves off.

I thought it was just me and we had super weeds here.

flowerjen, have you heard the old saying, "I talk to my garden but the weeds always listen in"?

Hee Hee!

Lessons I learned from my dad, the retired farmer/sod farm owner:

- Apply Round Up when it's hot and dry, but while weeds are actively growing. Heat and direct sunlight give Round Up a boost. (It works for me in the shade, but it works much faster in the sun. It seems to work better at higher temperatures.)

- Apply 2, 4-D after a rain and, just as with Round Up, when weeds are actively growing. I have very limited success with 2, 4-D when there's a dry spell. For instance, right now, we haven't had a good soaking rain here for weeks and the grass has gone dormant. I wouldn't apply 2, 4-D when the weather's like this because I doubt it would work.

Hope this helps!

yes it does. thank you

I'm new to gardening to.My 2nd year at it. I only use full strength vinegar.I only put them on the roots,straight from the bottle,about 2- 4 oz will work for you. Also Scott's pellets will also work to.but only put down in the fall.

You dig the plants up and saturate them with vinegar? That sounds like a lot of work.
What Scott's pellets are you talking about?

Hosta's - I'd love to use something natural like the vinegar - but I have a looooong drive and I'd need a tanker truck full to get all the grass and then two months later ---I'd be ordering another truck full!

I don't enjoy refuting some of the myths of the well-meaning people who insist on everything being "natural," but their zeal is often misguided. First of all, everything that exists is made up of chemicals, so anyone who opposes chemicals opposes all matter. Many "natural" substances are toxic and can kill. Dosages are critical, also. Water can kill any animal in excessive amounts. I don't know anyone who enjoys spraying everything in sight with pesticides or herbicides, but getting label approval costs millions of dollars, and it takes years of research and testing to get approval to put such products on the market. Vinegar is touted as a wonder agent, but as a herbicide it is woefully inadequate. It simply does not kill the roots of most plants, grass or otherwise. That is just a fact. The proper herbicide for what you're trying to kill, used as indicated on the label, is the prudent choice. If farmers went "natural," production would drop so drastically that our farms could not possibly produce enough food to feed our population. The Chinese use human waste as fertilizer, but I don't think many Americans would want to do that. Moderation in all things is the best policy.

Try mixing RoundUp with a broadleaf weed killer. The combination of the two has worked very well for me, especially on grassy weeds...but be very careful not to get it on desireable plants.

This message was edited Aug 26, 2008 10:08 PM

Thanks Jasper - I will do that. Your advice is always very much appreciated.

Dp72 - I agree with your points--about our dependence on chemicals in the large agri-farming businesses growing our foods. And, of course I realize that even water can kill an organism and air and oxygen also! I use chemicals.. I still would rather go natural when I can. With the gravel drive, I wonder if it is important to kill the roots. The turn around time for brand new weeds to grow on that surface is so quick. I think there is a limit to how much plant life can exist in the middle of a drive - crowding / competition..etc., so maybe just killing off the top is the best I can do anyway..If I kill the root ..I just have brand new plants to deal with. .. The one point I do not agree with is your assertation that a lot of research/testing..goes into bringing the product to market..because what I am reading into it is that you believe that this is a guarantee of safety as long as the directions are followed. Yes, it costs big bucks, and yes it requires approval... but sometimes that process of approval...and clinical research/trials... etc. etc., isn't always as straightforward as it would seem.. There are layers of influences.... big companies with big bucks and agendas... so I wouldn't bank my bucks on the fact that safety in the doses recommended..etc. etc. are in fact the way it is. Look at tobacco - it got to market, look at some of the consequences of anti inflammatory drugs --look at the administration's stance on whether global warming is in fact a reality/issue...and how it is backed up by 'research,' look at the destruction of the electric car way back in our history.. all cars collected and all destroyed.... So, personally I don't depend on the fact that if I 'use as directed' it is OK. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

This message was edited Aug 27, 2008 10:48 AM

The biggiest problem for weed killers not to work is the timing. Generally high temps and actively growing are the key points to success but the most important part is the stage of growth. seedlings are easily killed as the weed matures it gets increasinly difficult to kill. So, you may find that some weeds yellow up and droop, then come back and some die. This is all because of the stage of growth. Get them when they are young and no problem, get them older and it takes a stronger dose and a little more time.

If your weeds are annual weeds, then it's probably good enough to kill the top growth. But if they're perennial weeds especially the ones with taproots, then you definitely need to use something that'll get the roots too, otherwise they'll keep coming back over and over again.

The majority of weeds in my driveway are perennials - or so it seems. I don't doubt there are new weeds among them The herbicides I use, when they appear to work, kill off the tops but after a few weeks the same weed shows up in the same place bigger and meaner than before.

The past few years we've had purslane mixed in with crab grass. This spring we added a few inches of new stone. The crab grass popped right through it but I haven't seen the purslane, yet. It's been "killed" three times this year and looking out my window most of it is green again.

Angry as I get that the weeds are beating my efforts to kill them off I must admit to a certain amount of admiration for their will to survive.

Ok, purslane sends off tons of seeds thats why when you see 1 you see 20 more around it. What i use with a client is every 2 weeks I use 2,4-D (any brand) and surflan. Surflan is a liquid pre-emergent that you can spray on weeds and bare soil. Round up type products are inert in or on the soil and don't build up. Surflan does. It is like liquid preen and you can buy it at any place that sells chemicals, like in nashville we have lescos which is all around the country and is relatively inexpensive. I find this in combination with 2,4-d work great.

I know it sounds like a lot of work but, maybe if you used a rake or something first before you used the killer, then the leaves and stems of the weeds would be bruised and wounded enough for the killer to get soaked into the stems and foliage faster with better effect, None of these killers work right away and for most perennial weeds, it will take a few spraying to have any effect, these types of killers have to be taken down to the root system by the plants and then weaken it by sending it back up to the top foliage before you will notice any kind of dying signs, so it does take a while to work. all plants go into a type of dormancy when deprived of moisture as a survival mechanism, so your weeds are probably the same if your weather has been really dry, maybe try a watering the night before and then add the killer after a rake in the morning so the top growth will be nice and lush/softer than brittle dried leaves, I feel for you all, I have a long driveway too but use one of the industrial blow torches on ours, it kills off the small seedlings but any stronger perennial weeds are only killed of at the top, they regrow again, but each time you do it they become weaker and weaker and eventually die off, it is easier than having the expense and worry about the chemical killers and less work too. you see results instantly and boy, do I enjoy doing it to these weeds. good luck. WeeNel.

DP72, I got lost with your choice of example about the use of chemicals when you said water can kill animals when used to excess, that is called drowning, there are very few living things that will drink enough water to kill them, unless there is an allergic reaction to water, ofcourse there are always the exception, but hardly relevant when comparing water to manufactured chemicals, there is always going to be a need to use chemical products as a last resort, but I think what is important is to use them with great caution, with safety in mind and be aware that the more the world relies on these substances, the more damage we do to the very environment we need to survive, I have no objections to anyone using them, but we need to remember where they go after we have sprayed them, this also applies to commercial farming and food crops, when these are used, they build up in the soil, when it rains, they get washed off our gardens or farmlands and they eventually end up in our waterways either via drains or washed of to the rivers and eventually into the sea/oceans, in some countries, they are even recycled back into the drinking water especially now that we have a massive population and are placing more demands for water, and I disagree with your point that these chemicals are needed to make larger and better amounts of food to feed us all, it is just that we have allowed them to be the norm and the easiest way to manage the food production, we have lost the skills of growing and clearing the lands from our forebearers who never had the money or the knowledge of these products, we have become a population who need instant remedies for everything to do with growing things without realising the consequences of what we do today we have a price to pay for our future generations,
There are large cities all over the world where the water is tested, and there are so much chemicals like antibiotics present in the water that it can only get there because they are flushed one way or another into the waterways from us humans that there are great concerns about it now, so dont just assume that the same thing is not happening with the use of chemicals we use on our gardens or commercial food production. I say anyone has the right to use chemicals, but dont just use them at the drop of a hat, use them responsible as a last resort. Sorry to disagree with you but we are all entitled to our opinions but I feel you have been very misguided by your information. The chemicals companies are out there to make money, not just because they think we should all have a nice lawn or lovely plants. WeeNel.

WeeNel, it's a shame my example escaped you. You certainly have much to say on many topics, and it appears that you prefer to lecture rather than to reason or attempt to persuade. I'm sure the environmental expert and savant Prince Charles would heartily approve of most of your posts. You seem to be unable to resist making suggestions on the culture of many types of plants in various parts of the U.S., while you are an ocean away. It's difficult enough for us in the 48 continguous states to give advice, because microclimates, as they are popularly called, can exist only a few miles apart. If your extended posts are an outlet for you to express yourself, then please do as you like, but it would be interesting to know how many members of Dave's who begin perusing one of your pronouncements actually make it all the way to the end. For those of us with inquiring minds, does WeeNel rhyme, or is it WEE KNELL? Are you a small person? Never mind.

Well dp72, have you been using too many chemicals? whatever, hope you feel better. Fortunately, you being in the USA does not give you any monopoly of the plants that you grow in your 48 contiguous states or micro climates. Not all, but most of the perennial plants that people ask about, we too can and do grow them right here in UK, what a pity your own knowledge dont extent to knowing there is a wider world out there. Cant for the life of me understand where Prince Charles comes into the topic we were discussing about chemicals, but each to their own I say, I assume anyone finding any post over expressive can use the mouse on their computer and click to move onto another topic etc, but perhaps these members can come in here to answer you as to whether they manage to reach the end of any posts, or perhaps like you appear to be saying, that knowledge is something only people like yourself living in the USA are experts on, gardening or plant growing believe it or not is done all over the world and some places have the same Micro-climates as you have, some people can manage to make the conditions available to grow some of the plants that you grow in TX.
How sad that you managed to bring a serious topic down to a personal level that implies just how small minded you reduce yourself to to without realising that this site is actually a world wide community and not just for people who live in USA. As for knowledge of plants growing in USA, I have actually been to USA more times than you have probably had a hot dinners, something that escaped your mind is that people actually travel.
As for your enquiring mind regarding my name rhyming, my name is Nel and as I was the youngest of the family, therefore here in Scotland, Wee is pet name for last born. I wont even ask what dp stands for as there could be too many adjectives to mention and I could never stoop to your level or that really could me misconstrued and classed as lecturing. WeeNel.

WeeN
When I sprayed the weeds --they were lush and green --so not dessicated and non absorbent. I understand what you are saying about damaging the plant first to enhance the uptake but way too long a drive for me to do that. I had to smile at the blowtorch idea -- my spouse has a mini stroke when I pick up the nail gun -- --I cannot imagine a blow torch --but it sure sounds pretty quick and easy...
Regarding the antibiotics in the water system - unfortunately a percentage of the antibiotic we take makes it through the body unchanged and ends up in our water systems via the kidneys etc. I am sure some folks flush old pills down the toilet but not the entire culprit.

DP/WeeNel - may I weigh in on the conversation between you both? Maybe I feel I should because I started this thread, but I really want to because I so appreciate the DavesGarden Community. We have so much stress in our lives - I come here to de-stress (but de-stress should not be distress~~) Each one of us has our passions - and in vehicles like DavesGarden when we are asked for opinion --we give it -- one hundred percent and without restraint!! I am guilty of getting on a soapbox a time or two (or three) and you all know from other posts that I do go on and on when posting in my attempts to explain my questions/needs/ or give a complete response to another's question. It is so difficult to 'hear' what another is saying -- without a voice-to-ear connection. Text-only communication loses a great deal in translation and can come off as sounding 'preachy' -- I think we all realize that (I probably 'sound' preachy now!!) But, personal attacks have no place in these threads and restraint and reflection in a cooler/quieter moment before posting will always serve the person doing the posting and be kinder to the object of the post. I would like to say that I appreciate all of your input and willingness to take the time to answer my question about my resistant driveway weeds and if anybody else out there has any suggestions short of an atom bomb - please feel free to advise.

This message was edited Aug 31, 2008 10:13 AM

wow, who knew weeds could start such a debate. Like I stated it actually take 3 growing seasons to the weeds under control where there are very little weeds coming up. If you re-read what I do at clientsd houses it might help. I know weeds are a pain but unfortunaely they are time consumiong. I'd rather spraya then burn but I might use that on my husband>

I think this is the first time I've come across people sniping at each other here at DG. I agree with missingrosie, it's distressing, certainly not de-stressing. I work for a forum community filled with gamers, and I expect to see some of that behavior there among competitive (and sometimes immature) gamer types. I don't expect to see it here.

Some people prefer chemicals, some people prefer to look for organic alternatives. Let's make some room here for individual preferences. By the way, it's entirely possible to debate a subject without taking shots at the person you're debating with.

Wow, it's like kids playing. Well, this area is for advice, you take what you want from it and decide what works for your lifestyle and beliefs. But, for me this is entertaining. Sorry i shouldn't encourage the kids.

kitten...., I had decided to move on to more productive threads, but I happened to look one more time and saw your comment posted at 4:02, as well as your previous comments about killing weeds. What I appreciate most about you is that first, you don't seem to take yourself and everything so deadly seriously, and second, you allow for more than one viewpoint on topics that come up. If more members of Dave's would adopt your live-and-let-live attitude, pettiness could be avoided. I myself realize that most people are convinced that they are in the right on everything, and questioning a viewpoint is often taken as a personal attack. Ad hominem attacks are best ignored, because if the offender doesn't get a response, then there's no fun in doing it. Of course, if somebody is viciously attacked, then a moderator should be notified so that the administrators are aware of the situation. I find some questions and responses interesting, but many are inappropriate. For example, someone in the mountains of Colorado may ask about groundcovers or trees or shrubs or annuals. Responses come in from Canada, Florida, and even overseas. Gardening is LOCAL. It's highly unlikely that any advice offered, although in good faith, will be of benefit, and may indeed cause someone to spend a lot of money and do a lot of work only to find the plant is unsuited in his area. Oh, I see this is getting long, so adios, and have a good Labor Day holiday.

thanks dp72. i love these discussions because you never know when you'll learn something new. As far as getting petty, well maybe someone is having a bad day and this was handy to take frustrations out on. Who knows and honestly who cares. We throw out info and hope it will help. Thats the best we can do...but i'm always up to a kid ass kicking. who isn't? Have a great hoilday.

My Daughter-in-law and I have been looking for more natural ways to kill the weeds in sidewalk cracks. If I may share a couple of accidenal and non-scientific findings: After making ice cream, my D-I-L poured the brine in the sidewalk cracks over her weeds. They were dead within days and have never come back.

I am a home canner and was blanching tomatoes using a propane stove on my back pourch. I had this huge pan of hot water and dumped it on a clump of bermuda grass - it was dead in two days right down to the roots.

Just a couple of thoughts. Let me know if you have any success on sidewalk weeds.

I bought the burner finally three weeks ago. Have not used it yet.
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If you see a big plume of smoke over North Carolina on CNN ---that is me.