basic how to on propagation based on my experience

Vi: Sand as well as topsoil has a lot of dormant diseases just waiting for the right conditions. Moist high humidity and something to feed on (injured plants). you can use it and lots of people do with reat sucess, you just need to be watching for any kind of signs of the possability of disease. there are a lot of fungicides available that will help controll the disease. you can cook the sand or soil but thats a pain to do unless you have the right piece of equipment ($800.00 - 1000.00). it can really stink up the house. personally I prefer to use either prebagged or a homemade peat mix, but thts what I prefer. Its like I like mustard and you like mayo. I hope this helps
Dave

Tigerlily is corect about a wetting agent is best to overcome the repelant nature peat has to water. One thing I am not sure of is if we mix in the terrasorb absorbant crystals will this be enough to overcome the need for a wetting agent. Most of why I am curious about this is purely economilcal. I found wetting agent from the link below. The problem is it costs 97.00 for 4 gallons and it only takes 18ml at the suggested application rate. so it would be costly for the small home gardener. Below is the link to one wetting agent.

http://www.jrjohnson.com/product.php?productid=16179&cat=277&page=1

http://www.gret-perg.ulaval.ca/en_presentation.html

I am still looking for a more economical source. I think the crystals should counter act the difficulty of peat to absorb moisture. I know personally I have mixed peat and perlite in a 50/50 mix and sealed it inside a tote (like the ones used to store under the bed). It absorbed a lot of moisture but I can't say how long it took for it toreach maximum water absorbency.

Tigerlily do you know of an economical source for a wetting agent so that the ones that want to mix thier own soils.
Dave

That's funny about the dry fertilizer. I get a measuring spoon in the water soluble fertilizers I buy. I know they are sold by weight (government regulation?) but no scale is included, just the spoon. Volume and weight can be used in measurements interchangeably if you know what the proportion of weight to volume is (aka density or if you take the inverse - specific volume).

Thanks HC.

I'll take the spoon method any day.

Jeanette

I just took this picture in the hopes that it will explain what I mean in needing to use a scale for measuring-this really only applies if you are going to use a siphon. If you are just taking a gallon of water and measuring out a Tablespoon, then I am sure that it works well-because you are mixing such a small amt at a time.

Its really interesting to figure it out, but can be confusing at first also. I should say that this chart applies to a fert that is 20-10-20. the reason that that is important is the Nitrogen number. If you were using a fert with a higher nitrogen number, then you would use less ( each bag has its own chart), a lower N # would be more.

there are 3 boxes top to bottom. Its the middle box that I am going to be referring to.
On the left side, first column is what the different ppm are-what strength you want. The next 3 columns are the ratio amt. The first of these is the siphon one ( 1:15). I usually use a injector and so I use the 1:200 rate because I fertilize so much I don't want to be making up a solution all the time-and I make up 4 gallons each bucket. All these numbers are for 1 gallon of water so I multiply my number by four.
The last column is what the EC (electrical conductivity-how you measure the soluble salts (fert). You use this column if you want to make sure that your siphon or injector is calibrated (working) correctly. You take a sample from the end of the hose and stick a EC meter probe into the sample and see if the number that it reads is close to the corresponding number in the chart.

so-lets go thru the 1:15 ratio one. Say you want 200 ppm in one gallon of concentrate-if you follow the chart, it will say 2 (all numbers are in ounces-dry) under the 1:15 ratio heading. So you would weigh out 2 oz, mix it in the gallon of water and there you go! With mine- I want 150 ppm so I see that it would be exactly half of the 100 ppm and the 200 ppm amt-which would be 1.5 oz. But since I am using a 1:200 ratio, then I go over to that column and I see that I would use 20.25 oz (13.5 plus 27 divided by 2) and I am making 4 gallons so I will weigh out 81 oz. and mix that into 4 gallons of water. And I should get a EC reading of .88 on my EC probe.

Here is my concern with the spoon. If it is a tablespoon and you usually use 1 T gallon when you mix it up ( somewhere in my mind, I seem to remember that that is the rate?), using a siphon ,according to their website, they are telling you to multiply that amt by 16-which is 16 T , which is way more than the 2 oz on the chart and you very well may end up burning your plants. It is not hard to do with soluble fert as it is, but when you start to use larger amts, its even easier.

Anyway-I hope this helps and doesn't confuse people more. As I am sure that Dave will tell you-it isn't always easy to convey the knowledge over the internet-esp if you are not a great typer as i am not!

Gee, I don't know if I want anymore info or not now. Is anyone elses head spinning like mine? Math makes my head hurt, LOL!

Lol. No one said there would be a test.

She is very correct in what she is saying. Its real easy to burn plants with soluble fertilizer. the burn not only happens when you apply the fertilizer but it can happen over time as well. Excess fertilizer is left behind as soluble salts. Imagine if you will you start with what seems to be a good rate but what you don't see is the fertilizer going back to solid when the water evaporates..
please don't get discouraged by this in depth chat on fertilizers. The thing I don't want to happen is to have a nice specimine you are just over the moon about. I woult just die if something happened to it because I failed to adaquately aprise you of the potential danger of improper use of soluble fertilizers.
I believe we have beat the fertizer subject enough in this thread. Anyone that wants a more in depth discussion I would be happy to continue on another thread, just ask.

Are there any questions on soils? I think the next subject was suposed to be bubblers or aeroponics. I hope The last few posts have not scared anyone away. I am glad to be able to use the knowledge I have to help everyone here on this thread. I feel like in some ways it is how I give back to everyone the the things I have learned over the past number of years. I hope this is understandable. For some reason I feel like I am unable to communicate what I want to in an understandable way.
Have a great evening
Dave

Dave,
I appreciate you starting this thread for BASIC propagation. I have learned quite a bit, but now am getting overloaded with the extra info. from others and pros/cons of this or that and measuring spoons/siphons using charts etc. Eyes are definitely glazed over. lol I do appreciate everyone's knowledge, but this is one called BASIC propagation. Please don't lose us.

I'm with Jan, my eyes glaze pretty easily too. I'm just starting to learn too. Too much info at once and it all starts to leak out. lol

I know when you've done it awhile, you learn all about additives, etc. But pretend you are me and know nothing and just need you to tell me what's best. Don't even need to know all the why's. Couple questions:

Am I right to say we need to use soiless mix for rooting? If so, do we , or can we, mix it with regular potting soil? If we don't mix, we need to put some kind of fertilizer, right? Cow manure in the seedless mix? Or do I use, soiless, regular potting soil, and manure together.

Also, I know to use peroxide, something to do with oxygen, but that's about all I know or need to know, lol. But, question is, I've been just putting a dollop in the water when I bottom water, or mist, etc. Is that ok?

I know what I wrote was complicated - it was only aimed at the people that wanted to use a siphon, so that they would understand better how to do it so they would not burn their plants. I am sorry if I got anyone upset-that wasn't my intention. ok-back to beginner gardening!

Howdy:
Sorry we got off track. My original intent was to do a basics how 2 because I realized there were a few friends here that wanted me to do a how 2 so I started one. We will get back to basics.
Lorraine it sounds like you are doing a good thig with the peroxide. I just started doing it because it made sense to me and everything I read had nothing but posatives to say about it. Of course we all know not to over do it.
Propagation mix. you can use the pre mixed soiless seed starting mix or you can beef it up/ cut it with peat and perlite to spread out the cost. I do a lot of things that are "wrong by scientific standards" but it works for me so is it wrong? I say if it works don't fix it.
A good propagation mix would be:

2 cubic feet Peat
2 cubic feet Perlite
1 cubic foot Vermiculite

Basically 2 parts peat, 2 parts perlite and 1 part vermiculite. I like to mix in slow release osmocote and then do a drench of the flats (jumpstart & schults starter plus) right before I stick cuttings.

Are there any questions I need to address before we start the new thread ? Or are we fine keeping this one for a while longer? I am asking this for the dialupers. I am on high speed but I remember dialup, so I am fine either way.
Dave

Lorraine, if you put cow manure in with your soiless mix you are asking for those nasty gnats. After the plants come up and have some new leaves start with a light fertilizer and then pot up when they are big enough.

Jeanette

Thank you. :)))
I am good with whatever you decide to do RE: new thread. I don't have any questions at this point.
Jan

Whew!

K, how in the heck will the liquid Dip N Grow stick to the cuttings? And what about light & temps, did we learn this yet?

Vi:
Light needs to be indirect but high light, if you know what I mean. The cover I have for my green house gives me about 20% shade. I like to try for 68 to 72 degrees. Bottom heat will be needed if you want to propagate through the winter. You will also need to supliment the light to give you about 16 hours of light.
I hope this helps
dave

Vi: I just remembered I missed the question on how dip-n-grow stays on the cuttings. Its a liquid that is absorbed into the cutting when its dipped prior to sticking the cutting. Your question kind of addresses why I like to make holes in the center of the cell prior to sticking the cuttings. It may or may not happen but I feel that if you push the cuttings into the soil instead of a pre dibbled hole you lose some of the rooting hormone when it rubs against the soil. I try to firm up each cell when I am finished sticking cuttings. I mist the cuttings with a spray bottle mixed with jump start, schults starter plus and peroxide. I like to water the trays the next morning making sure I get a good run through of water out of the cutting media.
Dave

What a great thread idea, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. I personally love eucalyptus but have been told it is almost impossible to propagate. I have access to a large one in a public place to take cuttings from. So do you know if it possible to take cuttings from to propagate?

pieohmy:
I never listen to the "it can't be propagated" words of wisdom. It may be difficult and success rate may be extreamely low survival rate. I will do a bit of research and though as to how to aproach this. Do you have a botanical name? picture maybe?
My main reason I never say never because what does it cost us if it fails? were out a bit of rooting hormone and out own time and energy. So lets give it a whirl.
Dave

If I may ask a question.... in your starter mix, you mention using peat/ perlite/ vermiculite. Does the perlite and vermiculite cut the peat to the point where it's low pH isn't a problem [scratching head]? I *think* that's what was mentioned when it got a bit complicated back there....

Eucalyptus globulus is the botanical name. They grow from seed easily enough but I have never seen this tree flower to get seeds from it.

Pieohmy, I started some Eucalyptus a couple of years ago. Can't remember where I got the seed tho. You might try Seeds Of Change, or Ebay. Or, sometimes I just google Eucalyptus seeds and find things that way.

Jeanette

Pagancat: Perlite's ph can range from 7.0 to 9.0 depending on the source. Here is a perlite page to read up on perlite if you would like to know more. Personally I tend to not worry about the ph of peat/perlite media because the household water's ph will slowly raise the ph of the growing media. I am more concerned about getting nutrients to the new cuttings. I like to mix osmocote to the mix as well as a light feedingperiodically during the watering cycle. If I were growing a large number of plants I would tend to worry about ph and availabilit of nutrients. I have a large range of plants that take both lower and higher ph than the nutral 7.0.
I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion of ph brought on by the eye glazing technical discussion on ph. There are a lot of variables involved that are very specific to the crop ones growing.
Dave

I bought eucalyptus seed from Park's and they germinated easily and grew very fast. An ice storm damaged the trees (two were over 20 feet tall after 3 years in the ground) to the point of cutting them down because they were so ugly. You can also find seedlings in some of the big box stores at times.

http://www.parkseed.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDisplay?storeId=10101&catalogId=10101&langId=-1&mainPage=prod2working&ItemId=3179&cid=pext00008

Here were the two tall ones before the ice storm at our last house.

Those are very strange looking trees. They don't have much foliage on them. They aren't anything like the ones I remember in California. I never got the ones I started that big because I traded them to someone, knowing I couldn't grow them up north. I just started them for the little bit of foliage I hoped to get for some bouquets and also to see if I could actually get them to grow.

Jeanette

Yes they tend to be a bit sparse in the landscape. I have no idea how they look in the wild. They seem to be missing the koala's. what did you do with them????

I cut them down when they didn't shed the ugly leaves from the ice storm. I think they are weed trees in FL. yet you can still find seedlings at the big stores.

I found some seeds so wish me luck. hcmcdole did you do anything out of the ordinary to get them to germinate?

I don't think the tree she is talking about is as bed as another one of the eucaliptis. The one I know is a weed has long thin leaves. Just my personal obsevation. Good luck with the seeds

I think most of the seeds I bought germinated easily without any big fanfare. The thing about this eucalyptus (E. cinerea aka silver dollar gum- the ones that florist's commonly use) is they grew too fast to keep in a pot so I put some in the ground and was amazed they were winter hardy. The ones in pots needed to be pruned regularly to keep them to size and that produced a lot of stubs which was ugly too. I still see some around town in people's yards but they aren't the prettiest things - more an oddity.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/51537/

http://www.walterreeves.com/landscaping/article.phtml?cat=18&id=364

You are so right, the little koala's arent' there!!! Drat!!

Ok, the jumpstart you talked about. Is that the name? And you mix it with the water, and peroxide and mist. Or do you put it in the water you water the soil with? The osmocote, you mix with the soiless mix, right.

I can't help it , I'm brain dead! Oh and Tigerlily, you didn't confuse us, some of us (me) even get confused with the basics!!! I actually cut and pasted your info so I could have it for later, when I understand better! lol

My son does that when he starts talking about PH for the fish tanks., cause he's really really studied it. I just go into another world while he talks, and nod a lot. Then he says, you didn't l isten to a word I said, did you?

Yes on all counts. I like to mix osmocote in my planting mix. I like to water in my cuttings with the jumpstart, schultz starter plus and peroxide. I also plan to mix all three into my mist solution for aeroponics
Lorraine ask your son to check the ph of your water you use for your plants. Just plain water.

Here is a link for jumpstart.

http://organic-hydroponicsupplies.thebigtomato.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=tbt&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=935878932&Count2=853019356&ProductID=2231&Target=products.asp&gclid=CLuE2OjbzZUCFQ4hnAodjClJig

You may be able to find it cheaper, so please do your homework... yes I said homework...LOL

I've been doing my soil mixes for a while but am never sure on how much osmacote to add since I mix everything in a wheelbarrow--any suggestions?

Which Jumpstart are you using, the granular or liquid? How do you know how far they will go?

Have you tried any mycorrhizae products? I've seen some interesting stuff on it!
I see some of the Happy Frog mixes have it, looks like in the granular form, not sure about the liquid. Any suggestions?
Thanks for the link!

Dave, Excellent thread! Is it too late to try more cuttings now? I have been trying to propogate Crape Myrtle's. Out of the 20 cuttings, I have 2 that are still going. I am also trying camillia's too. I tried them in the bubbler and they stayed green but no growth,I have now put some in a potting mix and some in sand. I had read you could use sand and I had it on hand so... BUT, I would like try a lot of things but want to use better matierals for a better success rate. My neighbor has an unusual hydrangea I'd like to try. This flats you have pics of (toward the top of the thread) Do you use those for starting your cuttings in or cells? Thanks for all this great information.
Dawn

Good questions, me too.

I use a liquid jump start but a granular would work better in a mix situation.
The wheel barrow: You may need to eaither measure how many pots of mix is in each load and then add the osmocote based on the number of pots in each mix. It sounds like it would be easier to just add the osmocote to each pot after planting.
I have thought about using the mycorrhizae in a mix it would be a good idea as far as my thinking goes.
The flat ids used for cuttings. it can be used as tiny trans plant. but as far as I am concerned it would be a waste of a step. Just my thinking.
Please let me know if I missed any questions please let me know
Dave

Too late in the season to try more cuttings?

I am still starting some cuttings, but there are about 2 1/2 months before my first frost. I have had great success rooting camellias and azaleas in forsythe pots. I have never had any root in water although I have heard it can be done.

Dave, is jumpstart the same as quickstart by miracle grow? I haven't been able to locate jumpstart, but the quickstart is a root promoting/transplanting solution.

Today, I started some mandevilla, hibiscus and pineapple sage cuttings, I will let you know how they turn out.

I think I will try some stuff anyway. You learn from you mistakes like Dave said.

Some cuttings are best taken in late fall and winter anyway (dormant hardwood cuttings for example).


http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-8702.html

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/pnw0152/pnw0152.html

http://plantpropagation.com/cuttings.htm

Thanks a lot hcmdole!