New Groups Possible??

MM,

And it was a Fun thing for the summer. That is the kind of things that I`d like to see. The zinnias were a good read too! I didn`t realize they could do cool shapes like that.

Karen

I would love to learn to do this having a support system, people to ask for help when I need it, great idea.
Kathy

I am in favor of this new forum, also. I would love to learn enough so that I could try coming up with a hardy tropical hibiscus - in other words, hardy hibiscus with the colors of the tropical. As I am not even good at growing from seed yet, this is a very long term ambition and one I may never learn how to try. But I would like the chance. Dotti

Greetings, all --

Add me to the list of those in favor!

I'm going to be doing some hand pollination of C. maximas this year trying for some favorable / unusual crosses. Having a forum here as a resrouce would be very welcome.

Liane

There are specific environmental pressures that make breeding advancements essential in tomatoes. The spread of Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus and the increase in average annual temperatures are but two such pressures.

I would love to see a forum for discussions of breeding specialized tomatoes to address environmental pressures and market issues. If the forum were more general and inclusive of all species, I suppose that would be okay too.

Penny, I'm glad you brought up the subject of the relationship between a plants' genetic makeup and its environment.

Altering the genetic makeup of tomatoes in response to hotter summers that enable leaf diseases is one very important sub-theme.

Another environmental element endangering food crops propagated from generation to generation through saving seed and selective breeding is the pollen from genetically modified crops. This was alluded to by bwilliams here - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4561445 and by ron_convolvulaceae here - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4594691 .

My point is that I don't think we should head off topics just because of their potential for violating AUP. And if we let "general interest" dictate what should and should not be discussed here, we're finished before we start. I think that as long as we stick to exploring what *is* as opposed to what *ought* to be, we'll be fine.

I'd like to keep discussion here as free as possible.

"I think that as long as we stick to exploring what *is* as opposed to what *ought* to be, we'll be fine. "

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, there are those who always think that what they think "ought to be" in fact "is what is." Or maybe it's rather the way they see things is the way things are. Then other folks interpret that as "politics" when in fact it's usually just unfounded dogma.

"I'd like to keep discussion here as free as possible."

Me too, but some folks don't seem to be able to handle freedom. Some overstep and others over-react.

But all that is peripheral to the issue ... which in my estimation is that if we don't start breeding food crops to resist an evolving environment, many more of us will soon be eatin' dirt.

Bill

I have some suggestions. I`m guessing there are at least a handful of people who like to selectively breed their garden plants in every category and probably a percentage of those actually have time to post because let`s face plant breeding is a ton of work. It would be a good idea to start out then branch out if changes need to be made.

I`ll leave the admins to monitoring the discussion material. They have always kept me straight with firm yet gentle guidance. I trust them.

Karen

"face it" not just "face" Oh well I need a new keyboard. ha :) Karen

Karen (gardener2005),

There is a little "Edit" option at the lower left-hand corner of your name box that you can use to fix or edit things as an afterthought.

MM

MM,

I know about the edit and I appreciate your being helpful in a nice way. I want to see this kind of helpful assistance on the new forum as well.

Karen

Hi Karen, (gardener 2005)

You asked "Would this kind of thread be a good idea for the a plant breeder forum?" (on Post #4602050)

YOU BET!!!! That is exactly one of the kinds of threads I'd like to see take place. Those Morning Glory F1 seedlings that resulted from your cross are intriguing and many are absolutely gorgeous! Don't you just love the variations you created due to that cross??

Something like that would be valuable over and over and over again. It'll never get old - because the information it provides will never get old. I'm hoping when other breeders/hybridizers do the same thing on this upcoming new forum (that they post photos of ALL the seedlings that bloom from the cross - - even the ugly"dogs").....................because it tells so much about the genes (possibly even something about the recessive genes) that exist within both the pod and pollen parents (more so in the F2 and F3 future generations). I'm sure other breeders/hybridizers viewing your project also values the step by step account with all that detailed documented information you so carefully presented. Congratulations on your work, and a work well done! :-)

~Margie

I would be interested in this new forum. I'm learning about hybridizing hostas, and am very curious about how genetics play.

Laura

Thanks Margie,

I`m exited about the possibilies of seeing other people sharing results from their trial and error as well as cheering them on for victories experienced. There is a lot of potential there.

Karen

There is a consideration in this discussion that has not been brought up yet: what are the possible motivations and considerations of a professional breeder for using this forum?

Any serious plant breeder striving for a patented cross is not going to discuss his ideas on a forum, because the development of something particularly valuable will have to be kept under wraps. Patent law is set up to disallow patent protection to hybrids that have become `enabled'. If this material is released to the trade before the patent is issued, there will be no way to enforce the collection of royalties. There is no point in closing the barn door after the horses have left.

The other way to invalidate a patent is to create a plant that is near identical to the one being patented. Potential candidates are first trialled for at least one year to see if there are sufficient improvements over current varieties. If someone else releases a very similar variety into the trade free of royalties, the patent review process will come to a halt at this discovery with a refusal because the applicant plant does not sufficiently `advance the art'..

With this in mind, there is no point for any breeders on this forum wanting an income from patenting plants to participate except to offer up hybrids that have no chance of being patented or to find out which crosses to avoid. For that reason, it would be unnecessary and perhaps foolish for them to even mention their profit motivation.

Mozilla is an `open source' program, based on the for-profit (and now almost dead) Netscape. There is no way for any profit to be made on Netscape any more, so it will disappear and live on only through Mozilla Firefox. Similarly, if there is no way to make a profit on abandoned patented plants, they will survive only by propagation by interested nurseries and other parties. A word of caution, though: make sure that the plants have truly been abandoned, because those with some remaining potential will probably be remarketed. The breeder will seek some other exclusive contractual arrangement, providing he is lucky enough to find another willing grower.

With the patenting of the hybrids eliminated, how can a breeder make a profit by marketing his plants? I can imagine a breeder selling his prize to 10 - 20 nurseries a few plants at a time as stock plants. If it is promising, the word will get around, and the breeder will then have the 10 to 20 other nurseries to compete with. Odds are, the breeder won't have the capacity to fill the orders, anyway. Not much profit in that.

If a for-profit, well bankrolled, dedicated breeder wants use a breeder's forum, he is much better off staying in the background, collecting information. I doubt he will be reaching a useful audience by touting his web site here if his purpose is to find customers, since most of the participants are motivated by the act of creation.

Anyone trying to use a breeder forum to build a reputation by showing off is likely to alienate most of the other participants. The best way for him to build a reputation is to attentively, respectfully, and humbly offer ideas and wait for others to discover him.

If he is wise and dedicated, he won't have the time to do much more than monitor conversations, because he will be focused on much more appropriate and fruitful markets to catch the attention of truly interested resources.

I think that any problems will come from those who have not clearly thought out their approaches. It is really in their own best interests to follow the AUP, providing that they find it even worth their efforts to visit the forum..

I have not covered all the angles here and would welcome comments and criticisms, especially about the profitability and ethical concerns of a forum dedicated to `open source' hybrids.

If one puts "profitability" aside and considers the possibility of amateur (non-profit-driven) breeders incorporating say Tomato Spot Wild Virus resistance into favorite vintage type tomatoes, one might foresee a benefit to the community of home gardeners who simply enjoy growing and eating tasty fresh-picked tomatoes.

I say that because I believe the following:

1. Tomato Spot Wilt Virus (TSWV) is on a rapid march out of the Southeastern U.S. and into the Midwest and Southwest. It has been reported as a rampant destroyer of small tomato gardens in Australia and other S.H. countries.

2. Warming temperate zone climates and the mass transportation of bedding plants, onion sets, and possibly poorly processed seed from amateur seed swappers could be rapidly spreading the plague.

3. The professional breeder community generally is not interested in developing TSWV-resistant vintage type tomatoes for the proportionally small volume home garden seed market.

4. Hobby growers of vintage type tomatoes appreciate qualities not typically found in the commercial packer/canner/shipper tomatoes into which the breeders are incorporating TSWV-resistance.

I'm approaching this discussion and this possibility as a hobby grower, not a professional breeder.

I vote for a Breeder/Hybridizer Forum,am always ready to learn and so far only crossed daylilies during the last 3-4 years.

Rich, what you say about for-profit hybridizers not sharing their work or finding time spent on this forum not profitable makes sense to me, and I can see where the interests of for-profit and not-for-profit, community-service oriented hybridizers/breeders would not necessarily converge.

But I know of at least one serous breeder among us who has crossed the line and shared years of dedicated research (about morning glories in general, not his personal research) with anyone who would listen. I think that the one thing that keeps this individual so active on both sides of the divide is his passionate love of a particular flower (approximately 1,000 species and 50 genera, though). Sorry to embarrass you, Ron_Convolvulaceae, but I'm talking about you,

Ron's the only example I can point to, because the Morning Glory forum has been my home base on DG (albeit off and on). I'm sure he's not the only one driven by his love of a particular plant here who will love passing along knowledge to interested people.

I`m not in favor of seed/plant trade scams. Such a forum would attract plant/seed con artists.

They offer a rare plant or seeds for a hobbyist to grow just for them and to aid their "research". The loyal hobbyists grow out the plants or seeds(for free) and are forbidden to share with others or to sell it themselves and then return a large cut of most all the produce to the so called "not for profit" breeder. The grower cannot use the plants for anything but to look at, gets nothing in return but maybe help with postage,a pat on the back and acceptance and recognition as being a important valuable member of the group. That is a form of scamming if you ask me.

Another thing that can happen is a plant breeder can pretend to have hardship and the group members will feel sorry for them and send all their rare plants,seeds or bulbs complete with pictures for them to sell and raise funds to get the surgery or whatever they say they need help with.

There are seed scammers where they put people up to buying or trading with people who are in competition with them to try and get seeds from poeple who would not knowingly deal with them.

The breeders forum would attract so called not for profit breeders because they could find people to propogate and even do crosses and send the seeds back all for free. They would save tons of money not needing to pay a grower or a worker and save their backs not having to shovel dirt and buy all the supplies to care for the plants. It profits a grower who gets conned into this nothing but work because they cannot use the plants for anything but serving the the needs of the person who sent them. They get paid nothing but must serve the person supplying.

Another way they can misuse the forum is to sucker people into sending them seeds or plant material that they will not have to purchase themselves so they can get someone else to grow them for their own profit.

They also approach newbies within the first few weeks after they sign up in order to ask them to do growing for them or make trades or purchases with seed or plant sellers that would not knowingly do business with them.

To sum it all the AUP would be what would keep the new forum on track with it`s purpose and intent for exhisting.

Karen

All that stuff could happen on the existing forums too and doesn't, at least not with any frequency (or if it does happen, admins are on top of it quickly and get rid of it before most of us even notice it!). And if anything, the people on a breeder/hybridizer forum are probably very savvy about this sort of thing and would be much less likely to fall for such a scam than some of our newer gardeners on the beginner forums for example. I also think that if someone did try to pull something like this, the legitimate breeders/hybridizers would know what the person was up to and let the admins know and it would disappear quickly. I also expect that if this forum were to be created, it would be for paying subscribers only which also cuts down on the scam artists--when I think about the various spam posts which I run into on here from time to time, I'd say 99.9% of them are in the open forums. In the forums that are subscribers only, the only thing I see is occasionally someone crosses the line a little bit on self-promotion, but I've never seen the obvious spam & scam stuff in the closed forums.

OH... I guess I'd love such a forum.. on to it's own... any pro breeder would surely benefit as a lurker..any accademic would as well ... there's a grand ammount of research..study..and actual application commited by the folks here..perhaps honeing fraud skills as well..
There are development considerations and help most amature/going pro folks can share..but business models are less interesting than hearing how to take that red play of light.. and insert it in the iris...and figureing out how to use that technique/info... and use it elsewhere.. and perhaps sit quietly during the discusssion of inserting animal protein into plants... and getting them to grow Kobi beef..
Gordon
OH...a garden has a plant to chair ratio different than a biological research area has.. I've ben told..so I know what I 've become/am..

This message was edited Mar 2, 2008 12:53 PM

I for one think that real breakthrough discoveries and creations should be protected and that the inventor of something valuable should get rewarded. Large agribusinesses in our consumer capitalist culture are quick to exploit freebies and quick to increase their market share by buying or forcing out even marginal competition to shut them down. Whether they do this deliberately or otherwise, we are left with fewer choices. By this I mean not only the number and variety of stores to buy unusual plants, but the variety of plants as well.

It is getting harder to be any kind of truly independent entrepreneur to do research and create inventions, because access to the raw materials and commodities for his efforts are getting harder to find and purchase, and, if available, there are barriers to acquiring them.besides a lot of funds. Chemistry is totally out of the question because of purchasing insurance and meeting OSHA and other regulations like meeting zoning requirements, let alone the cost of buying instruments and supplies and building a laboratory. Electronics suffers from a lack of stores that can supply all of the specialized parts. Radio Shack is a mere shadow of its former self. Even buying commercial parts for businesses from companies like W. W. Grainger and computer supplies (CompUSA is gone) are getting harder to do, because business accounts are required and you need certification to start one.

About the only place to do scientific research at home right now is with plant breeding. This may not last much longer, because of the coming White List, which will restrict the importing of new plant species. If the scheme is to follow the New Zealand model, it will cost around $26,000 to have an imported plant tested to see if it will become a noxious weed, and it will take a few years before you can begin to work with it, providing it passes the tests*. This will assure that only major agribusinesses will be able to afford to bring in new species. The only other way to bring in plants is to sneak them in or take short cuts. This is already occurring, although not all of the doors have been sealed yet.

Current restrictions are even impacting botanic research with major universities in the United States and abroad. We are already suffering from a drying up of basic research in universities, especially in botany. While botany departments are receiving record amounts of money, it is all going into biotech. Very little is going into basic research. All of my academic friends who were doing research as late as the 90s are maintaining their positions through tenure and teaching. No research.

If you want to use the Internet to access a peer reviewed journal, you will have to pay around $30 and up for a download of the paper, or pay a yearly subscription of $300 or more, per journal! I certainly don't have that kind on money. The free information on the Internet is always suspect, even if due diligence has been followed in its creation or reporting.

The results we post will have value proportional to the care we take during our creative processes. Good record keeping, especially checking the provenance of our plant parents, and having our results checked by some sort of peer review will be necessary to establish authenticity.

It is all well and good for us to exercise our scientific and artistic imperatives and mess around, but with all the crowding out by mercantile forces and restrictions from environmental concerns, we should protect our really valuable contributions from abuse and exploitation. One way to gain that respect is to patent our valuable offerings, not so much for the money, but for the attention and respect they will bring. This is a lesson most scientists and some artists need to learn, and quickly! As stakeholders in the greater human enterprise, we should not abdicate our strengths.

* - For more on the White List, Google APHIS (Animal and Plant Inspection Service) and NISC (National Invasive Species Council) URL:
http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/council/main.shtml

heheheh, GordonHawk

....I must be in the minority here, but I'm thinking that me, in my backyard, tinkering with pollen is not exactly going to revolutionize the industry. For all the people who have their finger on the pulse of genetics by all means, please patent.

You see this with artists, too. The fear of putting anything out there, because it will be cannibalized, consciously or not. This is how we grow as a species- sharing ideas and exploring together. I understand to some it's big business, but I doubt many of us are in that mindset. I am not downplaying our intellectual capabilities either, I just think that this is play for most of us. Maybe an obsession, but a form of play. It would be nice to be doing that in a group and sharing our results, rather than doing it in the dark, alone, obsessed. It's not healthy to create in a vacuum without feedback. You can miss may good aspect of your own work.

This message was edited Mar 2, 2008 1:54 PM

man,,,,,, all I wanted was to learn how to play with my flowers, that was what I thought this was going to be. Teach me the parts of the plants, what to remove, what to put where and so on. Being disabled, I thought this would be a great hobby to add to my love of gardening to keep me busy. Does this really have to be this serious? If you want to learn to play or give advice, then this would be a great place. If you want to make money and take advantage of others, then this would not be a good place for you to play. To me, it's simple.
Kathy

I probably will not share all my secrets but what I share is given and considered released like a bird to the wind. Ideas and inspiration can be like those little fluffy seeds that blow in the wind. They will take hold and grow once they reach a fertile spot with the right elements to support the life.

Karen

Karen just said it better than anyone else so far ...

Every professional started as an amatuer at some point, and was taught by someone who knew more than they do, whether personally, in a classroom, or by writing down their knowledge in a book. I want professionals to continue to bring us beautiful plants for our gardens, and they deserve to make a profit. However, the next generation of professionals also needs at least a few willing teachers to share some of their knowledge with the those who are willing to learn.

I am hopeful that if this new forum is started that this will be the spirit present.

Laura

I'm not trying to drown everyone with too much information and opinion here. The observations and cautions I have mentioned come mostly from my personal experiences and observations, along with those of close friends and associates. Most of the posts on this thread are from persons who want to be totally immersed in the joy of plant breeding with no need to worry about the concerns I've mentioned.

My career as a horticulturalist and scientist started on my family's farm when I was in the 4th grade. Back then in the 50s, I did not realize that I had the inhibitory form of Attention Deficit Disorder, and had a strong need to use my mental energies lest I be overwhelmed. I became fascinated by colors, odors, and textures, and this led me to chemistry. In a few years, I was around four years ahead of my fellow scholars until I got my batchelor's degree.

When I got to graduate school, it dawned on me that I might need a backup activity, since the job market was not too good at that time, especially for persons interested in basic research. I chose to start investigating Salvias then, and have never regretted it.

I still have a strong imperative to do research, and I have developed a strong need to have a positive impact on my chosen areas of interest. So I very much want to see the opportunities for others to do similar work facilitated and preserved, in similar spirit to what others have expressed.

However, the Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus posts indicate a bit more ambitious goal, and it is to these persons that I wanted to supply helpful context. I also want us to be vigilant for changes in horticultural enterprises that will have an impact on us.

I would love to see a breeder/hybridizer forum. Count me in...

I would also love to see the forum.. so far I've got over 200 MG seedlings that I crossed and really don't know if any of the crosses took yet, but it will be fun finding out..

I used to cross passiflora a couple of years ago and switched over to MGs in 2004. Even if I didn't have much to contribute at first, I'm sure it would help me quite a bit.

i am interested too.

I would be very interested in such a forum. This will be my first year I attempt to dehybridize a hybrid. Next year, I will have a number of mature specimens of a very variable species, and I would like to play around with selecting with that plant, so this forum would be a big help to me. I've read some of the theory of breeding, and I find it is not the kind of thing my mind readily absorbs--too many arbitrary symbols, no way to apprehend it intuitively. But talking with people about doing hands-on stuff, yes.

However, I also agree with what rich_dufresne had to say about even amateur breeders protecting their results from being cannibalized.

"dehybridizing a hybrid"...see I've learned something already, I did not know such a thing was possible.

Laura

"Dehybridize" is a term of convenience used by hobby growers to define growing out seed from hybrid cultivars and selecting lines out of subsequent filial generations as the gene pairs segregate from their heterozygotous configuration and recombine into homozygotous pairs.

I don't think you'll find "dehybridize" in Websters ... at least not the old volume I use. Some gardeners involved in the process perfer to call the lines they select from "dehybridized" hybrids something like "segregants" rather than "dehybridized hybrids."

When the two parents to a cross are very similar in their visually apparent traits, many of the segregants may appear the same as the F1 hybrid and look stable in the first few filial generations, even though the gene pairs continue to segregate and recombine for several more generations before complete homozygotous pairing nears 100%. An exmple of this would be cherry or plum saladette type tomatoes where two lines with the same or very similar growth habits, fruit shapes, leaf shapes, and fruit color were crossed, but each parent contributed something individual say with disease resistance, Brix content, or other not so visually apparent traits.

In cases where the two parents to a hybrid are very different in appearance, the subsequent segregants will appear radically different from the F1 hybrid and continue to segrate into very different individuals over several filial generations. An example of this might be where a wild currant tomato was crossed with an existing breeding line to introduce a new disease resistance. Or where someone intentionally crossed say a large, pink (clear epidermis), beefsteak, potato-leaf tomato like Brandywine with a cherry-sized, red (yellow epidermis), regular-leaf, super-sweet tomato like Gardener's Delight/Sugar Lump.

Dave, and /or Terry,
I know that Dave is busy putting together the new auction program and getting that launched late this week/early next week. Can we expect that possibly this Hybridizer's / Breeder's Forum will go up after that has been completed? Can we still hope this forum will take place?

It would be so much easier for all of us to get together on one forum rather than crossing so many forums to 1.) locate other hybridizers 2.) in order to see and read what other breeders are doing, 3) and compare notes, experiences, results, and experiments. I'm suspecting that most of us won't take the time to try and locate other hybridizers and breeders to learn more about genetics from, to encourage one another, to get into mutation techniques, etc.

I never realized that there are quite a few of us hybridizers/breeders here on Dave's Garden (in so many fields). I'm more excited than ever to see this forum get off the ground.

~Margie

Actually, we've just been busy with a lot of different things (including, but not limited to the auction stuff ;o)

Here's a link to the new forum: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/f/hybridizers/all/ - enjoy!