New Groups Possible??

Well it looks like a misunderstood. Apparently it was a turnip x cabbage which ultimate outcome was the rutabaga. Their are tons of articles on it.


http://plantanswers.tamu.edu/publications/vegetabletravelers/turnip.html

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Polyploidy.html

MM,

You are too, too funny. LOL. Sorry about that. I should have read the posts more closely.

bwilliams,

The second article talks about the cabbage/radish cross -- has the roots of a cabbage and the leaves of a radish -- not very useful, and since it couldn't be bred with anything else, it would basically be a dead end.

The rutabaga, though, must be a natural cross since it dates back to the Middle Ages. Unless those guys knew more about alchemy than previously believed.

I wonder if something like that happened with corn. In college I took a course in Ethnobiology. One whole semester, and the only thing I remember from that class is that corn cannot reproduce itself in the wild -- it cannot "volunteer".

Karen

I was thinking if we ended up with even just one forum for us hybridizers and breeders - even THAT would be great and oh, so appreciated!!! What a helpful and valuable tool for those seeking information concerning hybridizing/breeding, as well as for those of us exploring and taking hybridizing to a whole new level.

Within that forum we could entertain all the different threads that are sure to come about. Threads for beginners (basics); threads with questions;Threads for intermediate or advanced discussions (which is sure to take place); Threads for those of us interested in comparing notes on genetics and mutation techniques; as well of other informative threads.

I know for certain we (here at Dave's Garden) have hybridizers/breeders in the fields of Morning Glories, Amaryllis, Cannas, Iris, Daylillies, zinnias, and likely many more plants which are featured here on DG. We are creating and improving plants with new colors, new patterns, new sizes, new forms/shapes, etc. A forum that would bring all of these minds together could only be beneficial.

Dave, If you think it's a good possiblity....................could you give us a sign? :-) Or better yet a forum? :-)

~Margie

I think this forum would be very helpful and informative. I'm IN.

I am in support of a cross breeding and/or hybridizers forum.

There has already been a hybridizing forum at the Gardenweb
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/hybrid/
for several years and a similar forum is in order for this site.

The large agricultural conglomerates have been engaged in the creation of various types of killer/terminator pollen (per se and by the carrying of harmful micro-organisms) which are specifically designed to destroy all but their own patented materials and I believe it is essential for all individuals to learn how to create their own food,medicinals and ornamentals to insure that we in fact have access to material other than what is patented by large conglomerates.

The issues related to the genetic manipulation of plants is (at least in part) a scientific one and presentation of the pros and cons should be allowed somewhere if it can done so in a civil way which includes the ability to civilly disagree.


I think that all topics related to cross breeding,hybridizing and genetic manipulation should be allowed including the discussion of all of the pros and cons...different issues can be discussed in different threads or perhaps in a separate forum...

The ability of individuals to create and thereby hopefully preserve their access to botanical variety is essential to the survival of individuals...

Thank You

Ron

This message was edited Feb 27, 2008 12:46 AM

I would most definitely be a lurker if nothing else!!!

I think this would be beneficial!! Great idea.

I think this could be an excellent forum to add to DG, as long as everyone is in agreement on our two main caveats:

1) no self-promotion (which can be particularly hard for breeder/growers who want to talk about their latest discovery ;o) and

2) no politics, even if it's highly pertinent to certain aspects of breeding/hybridizing.

Terry, referencing your point #1. Are you saying that if we have some type of unique breakthrough plant, we can't mention it or post pictures, even if it would be of benefit to the other forum members? I know in the current Iris and Daylily forums, hybridizers do post pics of their seedlings (whether of registration quality or not) just to show patterns, branching, bud count etc...

Terry, I'm glad admin is looking favorably on creating this forum... it sounds like some fascinating discussion could take place here.

With regard to the first stricture... people post pics of their most successful daylily crosses, and it's understood that you don't ask on the forum about buying them (but you can Dmail to ask them to let you know if/when the DL will be available for sale). If we say that breeder/growers can't talk about any crosses that might be commercially viable, won't that just cripple the conversation and exchange of ideas on this forum? I think it'll be obvious that somebody has crossed the line if they add something like, "This amazing new hybrid will be available in the spring of 2009 for the low, low price of just $138.95!"

Breeding/hybridization, along with genetics, has long been an area I've been curious about - very much hope this forum comes about.

Would also like to see Terry clarify what she means about self-promotion - being able to post pics & information about our work seems highly germane to the purpose of this proposed forum.

Terry,

I agree with the opinions of the previous posters, sadie_mae, critterologist, and bluespiral, regarding the seemingly over-restrictive nature of the first caveat.

Almost any communication from "breeder/growers who want to talk about their latest discovery" could be interpreted by others as "self-promotion". For example, much of what I posted in my "Zany Zinnia" threads could be interpreted as self promotion, although my motives were simply to call attention to the pleasures of amateur zinnia breeding.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/747338/

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/764502/

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/798070/

I propose that the first caveat be reworded to something like:

(1) No commercial advertisements or communications and no for-personal-profit message content.

That would specifically not exclude not-for-profit voluntary offers to trade, donate, or exchange shipping materials, seeds, pollen, bulblets, cuttings, or other plant parts for the purposes of like-minded hobbyists, in compliance with local, state, and federal regulations.

And it would allow us "proud parents" to post pictures of "our babies" and brag about them with no fears of "self promotion".

MM

This message was edited Feb 27, 2008 1:05 PM

Ummm, well...that isn't my rule; it's what the Acceptable Use Policy states ;o)

(I added the underlining for emphasis.)

For us to create the forum, we need to be sure we're all in agreement from the get-go: hybridizers and breeders must understand and accept that the AUP applies to this forum, too. That may mean they have to be pretty careful about how they approach their posts to avoid crossing into self-promotion.

For example, posting "Look at the new [plant name] we created by crossing [x] with [y]" is okay, as long as the focus is on talking about the breeding itself.

But "Look at the new [plant name] we hope to have available next year" is not okay.

I think a lot of the folks here are familiar with applying the AUP restrictions when they post on other forums... being careful in approach to avoid crossing the line should be very do-able.

At first glance, it looked like you were suggesting a stricter application of the AUP than we've had in other forums, so thanks for clearing that up.

:-)

Terry, thanks for clarifying your meaning, your wording did sound more strict than the regular AUP.

I certainly agree that everyone should comply with the AUP in this proposed forum. For those who may not be familiar with the AUP, you could refer to it in the description at the top of the forum and/or in a sticky.

My understanding of the restriction on "self promotion" is that individuals who are breeders/growers and who are marketing their 'product' cannot discuss the plant in a way that is tantamount to sales advertising...e.g., mentioning that the plant material is for sale or otherwise available by yourself and/or by specifically directing attention to your venue(s) for any such related sales...

A breeder or grower who is not selling and/or marketing should be allowed to discuss the results of their research/investigations because a total ban on such sharing would defeat the entire purpose of a breeders/hybridizers forum where people share about their experience in this field...

I will defer any further elucidation of the definition of "self promotion" (if needed) as it may apply to the intended forum to Terry and/or Dave for any relevant necessary clarifications...

I'll certainly jump in with my contributions when this new forum is set up, as I've some experience in hybridizing over the years.

Terry,

9. Members are restricted from utilizing the Dave's Garden services for self-promotion of themselves, their website, or their organization...

That leaves the term "self-promotion" undefined. I suppose that just providing a link to your own website would be a violation. Perhaps just mentioning the name of an organization would be a violation. I dunno. Certainly, your examples

define two points on opposite sides of the boundary, but just specifying a city in one state and another city in a neighboring state does not specify the location of the state boundary.

As I suggested in my previous message, "self promotion" is an "eye of the beholder" thing, and subject to different interpretations by different people. Which makes compliance with the Acceptable Use Policy a somewhat uncertain thing. I do agree that the AUP will govern the new forum. So we have no disagreement on that point. But, with the subjective nature of the definition of "self promotion" now in my mind, I will feel less comfortable posting in any forum here.

MM

This message was edited Feb 27, 2008 4:46 PM

I do not believe the forums should have advertisements on them. If so it would then just be a ton of adds and commercials. In the past I have slipped a few times when someone asked me certain questions on the forum and I answer before really reviewing my response. I have also seen were people post then add links to their favorite sites to buy plants from. I personally like that and know that I should not add my own link to the forums . I do like showing my new hybrids to groups and getting their feedback. If I am asked if I sell the plant or know were to get it I will not respond. Still when your a hobbyist and in the business, being on a forum like this is a bit more work. I try to becareful and answer the questions I can. I don't try to promote my business on here but when you have something new and exciting it's hard not to show everyone what your working with and to some it looks like trying to sell it or promote it. A very fine line it seems?

(From the get-go) I am familiar and agree to the UAP restrictions on self promotion and politics (as I believe we all are), and if anyone was not familiar with it -- they are now. I think DON has done a wonderful job of explaining it even more clearly. (I don't think I could have explained it so well or so in-depth as he has). If further clarification is needed, then of course we'll abide by those rules.

The business/self promotion/politics aspect of this sits in a different area of the brain (it's uses the left hemisphere of the brain), so I believe that can be refrained from without much problem and not become a part of any of the discussions. I agree it may be a bit harder at times when we answer without thinking, but overall it's not in the forefront of our minds.

Breeding/Hybridizing drives us. It's a form of creativity. (it's uses the right hemisphere of the brain) It's creating new forms of ART through the use of plants. (Obviously, some of these hybridizing efforts will prove to be successful, beautiful, and/or unusual - - thus resulting in introductions to the public for mankind's pleasure and enjoyment. All of this can be done without promoting that within our forums.)

What I hear us DG members/subscribers saying and wanting is a forum to share hybridizing /breeding techniques, information, our experiences, our discoveries, genetic breakthrough discussions, feedback on what we've come up with, experimental developments being discussed, and so on.

The "fun part" and "goals" of this forum (as I see it) is learning from others, discussing the creation of new plants, taking today's plants in directions never yet seen by man (and posting the photos to prove it), discussing problems we happen upon or directions we need to take, posting our pictures of successful results, surprising results, as well as our failures; picking each other's brains for information and encouragement (so we don't give up when the going gets tough), discussing results and techniques for genetic mutations; learning what tissue culture is, etc.

Thank you (and I am appreciative, as I'm sure all of us are) to both Terry and Dave for believing in us that this would be an excellent addition to the forums (as well as reminding us to keep in mind what the AUP states). This is so exciting!

bwilliams,

"I do not believe the forums should have advertisements on them."

Actually, Dave does allow a limited amount of paid advertising. For example, the Seed Germination forum http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/f/germination/all/ has J. L. Hudson, Seedsman, as a paid forum sponsor. Considering J. L. Hudson's product line, it is a good match for that forum.

MM

Ah yes advertisement on the sides of the forums is fine and I can completely understand it's use. I just understand that if you could do it in the forums that it would over run the whole purpose of the site, and I am sure we would see more than just plants and plant products advertised much like spam mail. If it were allowed and a place would have to pay more to add a link I dont think it would be that bad either as long as it was not over done and of a interest to the forum.
On this form I am manly interested in ways of causing mutations and manipulating the plants. I currently have 5 different experiments on seeds and seedlings going. If one of these experiments shows a much easier and productive way of producing variegated or chimera plants it would help in the production of new interesting plants.

I`m all for a hybridizer and selective plant breeding forum. I`m going to plaster Daves Garden with pictures of my latest creations Forever!!!! I`m going to sit here and get all kinds of new ideas and actually be motivated to try them out.

I really like what I`m hearing. I don`t care if someone sells or not and I feel like it isn`t my place to say who is and isn`t "advertising". That is a negative direction and let`s avoid that. Let the sellers sell in peace. Let the hobbyists continue to drool over Brian`s pictures. I have learned a awful lot from sellers of a variety of plants right here on Daves.

Hybridzers,selective plant breeders, mad scientists and people who really dig different lookin` stuff this forum is for you. LOL!

Karen

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/f/bulletins/all/ for Classified @ $5

I confess I have refrained from posting about some of my plants for fear of appearing to self promote. It all started when I sold my first plant. Just being honest. Karen

Don't members of DG already have the privilege of indicating their favorite or home webpages on their member pages? Is it against the AUP to do that with the intent of selling something? It seems like that would be a good idea - individual gets to advertise while not doing it on the forums - everyone would win.

There are some other folks who are also already breeding plants or musing about it on the Agastaches & Salvias, Heirloom Vegetables and Cottage Garden forums, so I buzzed those forums. Why don't the rest of y'all do the same with any forums you think might harbor interested people?

Here is another angle to the proposed forum. The big box stores on the Pacific coast are shoving a lot of smaller nurseries out of business. The big boys carry a high turnover inventory of only the few and fastest moving plants. The guaranteed sales nurseries take out dinged but viable plants every 7 to 10 days and replace them with fresh stock. I am also told that this trend is moving east. As far as I am concerned, this is just another example of Gresham's law applied to mass marketing.

This is pushing out of the market all the marginally interesting plants that we all love to work with. So, unless you come up with a really whiz-bang, durable, compact, showy, easy-to-propagate plant, your chances of getting a plant patent and then royalties will be minimal. And if you have a plant that does not even have that attention-getting strength, the possibility of making it known will depend on Internet forums even more.

Another factor will be the drought, like the one I am experiencing in the southeastern states. I am in the middle of the exceptional drought area in North Carolina (http://drought.unl.edu/dm/DM_state.htm?NC,SE). My friends in NC nurseries have told me that many of them have folded, and those that are still in business are planning to do about 2/3 of the production of last year.

These factors also impact PlantHaven and other organizations that facilitate the patenting of marketable hybrids. How many of us operate in the hope to get some income to finance our experiments?

And then there is the economy, which will remain an unknown variable. Worrying about that is like making payments on a loan I do not need. It will have some kind of impact, though.

If these hybrids and other breeding experiments are going to be shared just amongst ourselves (including everyone with similar goals not on the proposed forum), the impact may be relatively minimal. But I assume most everyone wants to share their experiments for fun and possibly profit (within restrictions). It will take a lot of introspection and discussion during the coming year or so to sort these factors out.

I propose this as a topic of discussion, if not on this forum, then on some other listserv. If there is already such a forum, please let me know about it.

It's interesting to me that the AUP has come up here as a big sticking point for this new forum. I've not noticed this being applied to the same degree in other forums (which I will not mention) where the conversation has at times gotten very, very close to self-promotion and/or advertising.

Karen

The thing is people have totally different view points and opinions on what self promotion involves. People judge by who they like and tend to judge people they don`t know a little more objectively and unfortunately sometimes too overboard negatively out of fear of the unknown.

Some individuals have to be in control or they have trouble participating. Other people are fearful of making mistakes and many of these people are newbies so they need someone to reassure them they are learning and getting it right. Others don`t care what people think and have a independent nature and desire free expression and the creation of their own topics complete with educated guesses and creative ideas of things to try just to see what will happen . Still others only want company and sharing their garden is like having tea together in the afternoon. Many people express love and care for others through their plants and seeds. This kind of mixture of personalities, group structures and comfort zones can be what makes forums interesting if a common goal is being reached.

I hope maybe this forum is given a chance. I think it would draw people to Daves Garden out of the woodwork and become one of the most read.

Karen

I would love to become a breeder of tomatoes how do i do that?

James

Karen (glendalekid),

"It's interesting to me that the AUP has come up here as a big sticking point for this new forum."

I don't think the AUP was the sticking point, since the AUP applies universally, and anyone who doesn't comply with the AUP simply gets kicked out of Dave's Garden. The "sticking point" was the first of the "caveats" levied by Terry:

It was unsettling that we were apparently being warned that participation in the new forum would be "particularly hard for breeder/growers who want to talk about their latest discovery".

That would seem to imply that participation in the new forum would be particularly hard for us, as opposed to other forums, which were not warned of special particularly hard "caveats". That alarming warning in the first "caveat" evoked responses from sadie_mae, critterologist, bluespiral, and myself. I, for one, was not looking forward to a forum where participation would be "particularly hard". Trying to participate in such a forum would not be worth the risk of being thrown out of Dave's Garden. I have already had an experience here in Dave's Garden of being in a message dialog with a person who couldn't respond to a post by me because that person had just been kicked out of Dave's Garden. (I was not even aware that the ejected person had violated any part of the AUP.)

But, for this proposed new forum, the AUP wasn't the "sticking point". There would have been no alarm if Terry's message had simply reminded us that, like all forums, the new forum would be governed by the AUP. The "sticking point" was that first "caveat" warning that participation would be "particularly hard".

MM

I have noticed when a picture is posted of a unique plant or flower a person has taken time to work on the questions follow,"Do you have seeds? Are you going to Ebay that one? " and "Where can I get that?" gulp...

Some people could be a little put on the spot if they have a plant or flower that gets a lot of attention. What then? Karen

MM,

That's exactly what I meant. It appears to me that the hybridizers/breeders are being held to a higher level of definition of the AUP than others are. I have seen much of what I consider to be self-promotion on other forums, and it doesn't appear to be a problem there.

I honestly don't understand why talking about your latest discovery or successful effort and how it was achieved would be considered self-promotion.

gardener2005,

I cannot see any reason that this group would not/could not answer those questions as adroitly as in any of the other situations that you have referred to.

Karen

My only reason for bringing this up is because I can see where the forum will likely attract those interested in the commercial aspects of breeding and hybridizing. The nature of those activities tend to lend themselves to promoting your own creations, products or website; hence the warning that the AUP will have to be followed in this forum just as it is in the others.

Thank you Terry for interjecting here. I don't mean to offend anyone who was discussing that topic, but I don't think any alarm WAS set off here, and I see no reason to keep beating that particular topic.

Like Terry said way above "For example, posting "Look at the new [plant name] we created by crossing [x] with [y]" is okay, as long as the focus is on talking about the breeding itself." .................... I don't find that hard to understand. If someone is then interested in that "named" newly introduced specimen, then one goes to Google, types it in, and Google will bring up where that plant is available - even if it's on eBay. If it's not yet introduced usually it's not readily available anyway. The focus of this forum would be breeding and hybridizing related (as detailed in above messages). The other is not in the forefront of our (hybridizing) minds.

Looking at these messages above - - it seems to me, that some people were unaware of the AUP regulations and asked for a clarification. Once it was given, it was understood, it was most satisfactory, and widely accepted. The majority of us (prior to Terry giving the reminder) were well aware of the AUP regulations and it hasn't been a problem in the forums. Terry's reminder was a good thing - - to ward off "Forum Abusers". Discussing the latest discovery or successful effort and how it was achieved would NOT be considered self-promotion.

As I mentioned earlier: Right brain thinking (hybridizing/breeding - which is an art form using plant genetics to create new and improved hybrids) and Left brain thinking (business, politics, self promotion) can be and are easily separated. Understanding this, as well the point made in the above paragraph, can easily result in a Hybridizing/Breeding Forum that is more than capable of existing without business, politics, or self promotion being a problem.

Simply put - - This proposed Hybridizer's/breeders Forum will be just fine!!!

Hi, glendalekid(Karen) , I`m Karen too. The truth is most all these comments people will make are in support and to be friendly. I`m all for free sharing and trading with details worked through Dmail as has been discussed previously in this thread.

Terry,

So, were you just giving a warning for people who will appear out of nowhere and try to spam the new forum? Karen

I have a question for margiempv,

Would this kind of thread be a good idea for the a plant breeder forum?

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/723247/

I would be so glued to keeping up with a plant breeder forum if they were documenting and sharing experiences like telling a story about discoveries in the garden.

Karen

Karen/gardener... It's my impression that if somebody asks a commercial question on an open forum ("Will you be selling that? I want one!"), the right way to respond is via Dmail. That way, the seller isn't promoting by discussing prices, availability, etc. on a forum, and the would-be buyer has the answer they're looking for. Sellers aren't allowed to send *unsolicited* Dmail to potential buyers, but they're allowed to have a commercial conversation privately (Dmail) as long as they don't start it. At least, that's how I've seen it handled on other forums. Does that make sense?

Karen (gardener2005),

"Would this kind of thread be a good idea for the a plant breeder forum?"

I think it would be great. That morning glory thread was a real "page turner".

MM

I don`t think ya`ll got me quite the way I intended it. I meant it in a humorous way trying to lighten things up a bit.

But yes, you are right. I think it is good to share in the open as far as facts and pretty scenes and picture you have and if someone has a commercial question to use the Dmail for details. I love to trade and swap seeds but I do want to stay in the boundaries of AUP. I`m in agreement with much of the discussion here.

Karen