Would a new name for "Indigenous Plants" make it more active

No - I think it's the wildflowers that are the 'outsiders'.

My vote would go for a more inclusive forum with "naturalized plants" or "wildflowers" also being discussed... but that's a personal preference, and I can certainly go elsewhere to discuss those types of plants.

At the very least, I'd like to see "Native Plants" added to the forum title, as that would bring the forum to the attention of people (like me) who hadn't been aware of its existence.

Although you could also return to the previous title of "Wild Plants," I think that the other terms we've been discussing -- Native, Indigenous, and/or Naturalized -- are more clear and more likely to pop up during info searches.

Would probably create more confusion to go the route suggested by frostweed as a title such as that would be the equivalent of "Native Plants and Non-Native Plants" or rather "Non-Native Perennial Flowers (Wildflowers)". Sort of an odd-couple pairing for a forum given non-native perennial flowers are discussed all throughout the forums already and particularly in the Perennial forum where not all native plants fit in so nicely.

A few years ago I was at the Garden Expo in Chicago where they have a lot of vendors and all kinds of neat workshops and such. There was one woman who was talking about native forbs and native grasses. At some time during her workshop, she asked everyone what words they would use to describe a wildflower. You know, almost everyone there called out the words native plant. She used the replies as an opportunity to discuss the differences between plants that were natives and plants that had naturalized.

Equil, I think Terry's point remains... why not have a forum (the current "Indigenous Plants" forum, not talking about creating a new forum) to discuss both plants that are natives and plants that have naturalized? Is it necessary that this forum be exclusive rather than inclusive in order to have effective & helpful discussions?

I'm not missing your point that there are disctinctions to be made between them... but couldn't threads on both categories of plants exist on the same forum?

Well, I just don't see why a "Wildflower" can not be a "Native Plant"

Equilibrium, I'm going to pick on you for just a moment, because you and I have been down this road together before, (and we survived!) More seriously, I know that you are able to see both sides of the native/non-native debate pretty objectively, even though you have clear loyalties to the natives, and for good reasons.

You wrote:

I actually think the inverse is more true: native plants ARE discussed in the the perennial (and annuals and tropical plants) forums. Perhaps the discussion is not on their merits as native plants, but the cultivation of the plant itself. (As we both know, sometimes gardeners choose natives consciously, other times, they are simply drawn to the plant itself.) I can't begin to count the threads discussing American native trees, shrubs, and perennials that exist.

The "naturalized" (or "wild plant" or "wild flower" plants) have no place to call their own within the confines of "cultivated" shrub, perennial and annual threads. They grow outside the garden walls, and discussions about them find themselves on the outside looking in, too.

That's why I'm leaning toward a more inclusive forum - to discuss various plants that are not overly cultivated and hybridized - these are the plants that grow in the wild. Some are native, some are naturalized. Some (of both groups) are well-mannered; some are thuggish.

But if they grow side-by-side in an uncultivated setting, can't they co-exist peacefully in a forum here? (*smile*)

I think the world of you for many reasons I'm not in a position to list out here so go ahead and pick on me. I do thank you for realizing I am objective but that's only because so few exotics are invasive and some native plant people (most if not all are gone now but there will be others over time) just didn't want to get it in favor of polarizing the issues. Round em up, keep em all together now and in the future. Hate to be so blunt but things have been so calm for so long that it's been a pleasure.

"Perhaps the discussion is not on their merits as native plants, but the cultivation of the plant itself." This is true, I've seen it myself but you're correct in noting that the merits of a native species from a native plant standpoint are rarely if ever discussed. It's a respect thing. One shouldn't mention native plant communities or any other merits unless a poster in the threads in other forums specifically asks because the Indigenous Plants forum exists for those types of discussions. You and me both know what may very well happen if a native plants merits discussion comes up at some point in time in the future with the extremists on the other side jumping on the bandwagon to say. "Hey, this forum is for wildflowers too".

Regarding leaning toward a more inclusive forum, please consider Native Plants and Native Plant Cultivars or however best to word it but I do sort of strongly believe Native - Indigenous Plants would still be the best way to try it for a while.

Is there anything so wrong with people who enjoy gardening with natives who know and fully understand the definition of a native wanting a native plant forum for just native plants what with so many other areas to discuss non-natives and that being the only place to discuss the "merits" as you call it? What about a whole new forum for what ever anyone wants to refer to as a wildflower while changing the current Indigenous Plants forum to Native Plants? I think there are those out there who don't realize plants they are calling wildflowers are actually native plants and then there are a whole bunch of people not making the connection that the place to go to discuss their native plants was the Indigenous Plants Forum. I think that I don't know what to think any more other than that I really would like more traffic over there and don't see it happening if it remains titled as Indigenous Plants yet see the traffic getting stunted when feathers ultimately get ruffled because non-natives got tossed into a native plant forum and people are left scratching their heads.

Please don't change the Indigenous Plant forum to include naturalized plants or wild flower plants. I agree adding Native Plants to the title would be helpful and draw more people but adding naturalized or wild plants to the title would defeat the purpose of the forum. Please consider the people who already use the forum and the need for a forum limited to Indigenous Plants. The watering down of this forum would be extremely distressing. It is very difficult to search and sift through mountains of information online to find valuable information on this subject. To have a forum to discuss this subject and share others information is invaluable. I would be lost without it. Please reconsider and leave this little gem.

This message was edited Feb 16, 2008 3:22 PM

Yes, please, same here.

Perhaps a Gardening with native plants forum and a plants found in the wild forum would be a solution????
The types of plants I want to post certainly fit the description of the Indigenous Plants forum
"Many gardeners are interested in the plants and flowers that grow beyond our gardens - in fields, woodlands and ditches. Here's a place to talk about these plants, some of which are endangered species.";
... but I realize they may not always fit the title. I really want a place to post and not just in photos and not in hiking. While I try to take the best photos I can and I do photograph plants while hiking that is not the purpose of my post. The purpose of my post is the plant.

I agree that maybe the best thing would be to keep the forum we have now and add a second forum "Natives and Wild Plant/Flowers" one for the pure purest and one for the not so pure gardeners...

Just when I think people are beginning to agree here, I realise this is never going to be settled unless there is some 'bending' of people's strong feelings about 'indigenous' or the presumably correct 'native plant to an area' fiasco.

When I was a kid growing up on a farm in Australia, we had 'wildflowers' whether they were the many orchids found in the scrubs or other 'wild' flowers. Wildflowers were what they were, 'wild' and at that time I doubt any of those plants were introduced, that is they were 'indigenous'. I doubt if I had heard of the term then.

What we have now is a world of political correctness, and why people feel so strongly they need to follow this 'correctness' to the exclusion of what has gone before beats me. This is not to say I do not appreciate anyone's ideology of wanting to preserve or grow or whatever their 'indigenous' plants, but hey how about giving it a rest.

As others here have said, and I agree with 100%, what is the problem with having a forum where any 'wildflower', 'native' or 'indigenous' plant can be discussed? There is no reason whatsoever why anyone should not be able to start a thread on any of these subjects under the same roof, they do in many respects belong together.

I see no problem if someone wants to start a thread on 'indigenous' plants, another may start a thread on a certain 'wildflower' they have seen which may turn out to be 'indigenous' without them having a clue about it. Surely someone then with knowledge of this plant could inform the poster in a nice enough, help and informative way as we here on DG usually do? Is that not what we here are about? Or do some want their own little niche? That's what it will remain in my view, a 'little niche' which to others looks exclusive and non-inclusive, a bit scary so better stay out of there.

We are all adults here aren't we? Why should anyone start scratching heads just because someone has posted something they 'thought' was just a plain or pretty wildflower. Even if it did turn out to be a plain or pretty wildflower, what is wrong with that? There is no place to post these other 'natural' plants, they do not belong in other forums with cultivated hybrids etc.

My vote would be for to rename the forum a suggested, Native, Indigenous and Wildflowers or plants.

Hmmm, A "Plants Found In The Wild" Forum in addition to re-naming the existing Indigenous Plants Forum as Native Plants or Native - Indigenous Plants Forum. That's a very interesting suggestion for a new forum because my husband and I, like so many others, travel frequently to natural areas in this country and other countries and always are definitely coming across native and non-native plants when hiking or snow-shoeing. Really great suggestion angele.

I'm chuckling at the irony here. Let's consider the facts:

1) This forum is one of our oldest. It was launched on June 4, 2001 as "Wild Plants" - here's the link where dave started it as a place to discuss "any native or wild plant" http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/41880/

Its "nickname" - which you can see in your browser bar - is "wildplants".

2) We changed the name to "Indigenous Plants" in 2006, to try to strike a fair balance between the native plant folks and the wild plant folks.

3) Despite its longevity and the name change, this forum has a grand-sum total of 12 pages of threads (at 40/page, that's under 500 threads, which means it has remained consistently under-used for the past 7 years.


So....if we create a separate forum for wild plants, what would we call it? (See the irony???)

And would that mean we just have two really even less-active forums?

If you look through the existing threads, I think there's ample evidence that no one is falling on the sword to defend Queen Anne's Lace, nor is anyone tilting at windmills for the sake of Lythrum (any of its species) or any other "pretty (but invasive) wildflower".

That's why I recommend we try calling it "Natives and Naturalized Plants".

The worst that can happen is the warring factions start up again, and we go back to calling it something more neutral.

The best thing that can happen is it becomes so popular, we need to split it into two forums to keep up with the volume of posts.

Terry, as I said, I'm with you in voting for a more inclusive forum... but could we also keep the word "indigenous" in the title? Also, I'm not sure (maybe we could check with Dave's search expert at NameMedia, whose name escapes me at the moment -- Steve?), but I think that "Native Plants" might be the more searched-for term rather than "natives."

Sort of setting up that board for failure by trying to join the native plant and the wild plant folk at the hip again based on comments here. I also think people who may be coming from other sites where native plant boards are clearly for indigenous species discussions "only" may have difficulty sifting through many non-native plant discussions to get to where their real interests lie. I think angele's suggestion really is a brilliant means by which to head off any past, present, and future issues.

Here, how about considering this-
"Plants Found In The Wild"
and
"Native Plants" or "Native - Indigenous Plants"

Plants found in the wild... really sounds a little harsh something like Wildflowers or Native and Wildflwoers would fit better and be a little
less better meaning.

Equi, sorry to knock heads here with you, I have enjoyed your posts and humour and hope to continue to do so.

"setting up that board for failure by trying to join the native plant and the wild plant folk at the hip again" with an uncertain "sort of" at the beginning and a "based on comments here" at the end of that sentence.

I really don't know why you think that, shaking my head here.

for now I am going to post in the current forum. I will try to make any threads I start have a clear title. I will be posting threads about gardening with native plants and also posting about plants I've come across that are not growing in a garden.

The real question is interest. Will changing the name really attract more eyes? Speaking for myself, if I was looking for a forum on native plants and searched the forum list, Indigenous Plants would surely be the first one I would click on. If I enjoyed it, I would 'watch' it. This thread has now generated almost five times the number of posts in one week than that forum did last week. Terry has a good point - will a renamed Indigenous forum plus a new one generate more overall posts than what Indigenous gets now?? Two questions - are people looking for native plant discussions and not finding that forum and are people interested in 'plants in the wild' not finding a venue for their interest??

Sorry to quote you again Equi, but you do mention

"I also think people who may be coming from other sites where native plant boards are clearly for indigenous species discussions "only" may have difficulty sifting through many non-native plant discussions to get to where their real interests lie."

OK, so where are all these people? Send them along and if the forum is used sufficiently Terry has said there would be evidence for both forums.

Don't worry about knocking heads with me. One simply can't take differences of opinion regarding a forum personally when they're not intended as such. I saw what you originally typed and figured you didn't mean anything whatsoever intentionally.

I think lots of people might enjoy a "Plants Found In The Wild" Forum with a little explainer that the forum would be a great place to discuss wildflowers. That suggestion has never come up before and it's rather genius so I'm surprised it has never been tossed out on the table before now. I'd think that would be an board to post photos of all that everyone finds when out and about... and yes, wildflowers too.

I think many others already adequately addressed the "identity" issues with the forum currently being titled Indigenous Plants long before I ever posted. I suspect many simply are looking for the word "Native" in a forum title and they aren't finding it.

sounds like there does need to be 2 forums though. one for the scholars and one for regular people who call a pretty flower they see on the roadside a wildflower. i know what indigenous means but not being a pedant (and i mean knowledge precisionist here) i'm never going to use that term for a search. people like me, and there are a lot of us, will just NATURALLY call any flower they see growing in a field a wildflower. i understand invasiveness and introduced species and that sort of thing but the flowers i see on a texas roadside or in a texas pasture are just plain and simple wildflowers. to me, it just depends on who you're hoping to draw to the forum. and just curious, but WHO are you hoping to draw?

I can only answer for myself. I'd like to see more people who actually have hands on experience working with native plants. I'm not scholarly and most of what I have learned has come from people who have many more years of experience with natives than me and most of them aren't scholarly either. Granted, some are but they would be in the minority. Most ot the people who express an interest in native plants are pretty down to earth and they're choosing natives for a host of different reasons which sometimes are discussed and sometimes aren't. Land stewards are a classic example of people who have extensive knowledge and expertise with native plants and it would be nice for a few of those types to be able to be attracted to a native plant forum but it would also be nice to attract a representative or two from a native plant nursery that I've recently noticed posting in other forums. Chances are pretty good he/she poked around and didn't see a Native Plants Forum and I know that person's site because I've ordered from it before and I know they only propagate native species and no wildflowers. Last time I checked, that site was offering a plethora of native species. There's a wealth of information out there to be tapped into for people like me who have a decent amount of experience working with native plants but no where near enough to go it on their own without being able to communicate productively with others who share similar interests who are probably scattered all over. I guess my answer would be more people who share my interest in native plants who have experiences they would be willing to share that others can learn from all able to find each other. I'm definitely not interested in wildflowers. The wildflowers with which I have familiarity re-seed too much for me which creates a lot of extra work around here. Believe it or not, garlic mustard is an Illinois Wildflower and shows up in many publications as such. I doubt any of us would want to plant garlic mustard but there have got to be some gardeners who would plant it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it certainly is a very pretty plant particularly when you see a wave of it in bloom.

It has nothing to do with scholars vs regular people--there are plenty of "regular people" out there who choose to garden with native plants. There are two themes which it seems for now are both fair game for the forum...one is people who want to talk about or garden with plants that are native to their area (indigenous/native plants), and the other theme is people who want to discuss things they've seen growing in the wild regardless of whether they're native or not (this is where wildflowers and naturalized plants come into play along with natives). So I think we just have to see how things go for now, and if traffic picks up enough in the forum then someone can suggest splitting those two themes out into their own individual forums.

OK, here is my example of why "Indigenous" could stay regardless of how much use a forum gets. I am planting a lot of Viburnum and wanted to know which were thought to be introduced and have become "Native" and which were here before the island was settled thus "Indigenous". Nothing is about it being PC, as the Nantucket Indians also introduced plants to Nantucket from the mainland and those would be "Native" but not "Indigenous" plants. I realize an Island is somewhat unique, but I beg to differ that these mean the same thing, as they are two quiet distinct words with very different meanings. Because "Indigenous" is not commonly used does not mean it should be dismissed and lumped into the word "Native". And if a plant was used by an early indigenous person (an American Indian) , but it was introduced by one of them to their land from another place, than that plant may be known now as "Native" plant introduced by an "Indigenous Person" but it is still not actually "Indigenous" but a "Native" plant. Splitting hairs, because "Native" is now accepted as any plant known in an area for a long time. And I actually don't care about the name used for the forum. I just hate to see our language diminished and become less precise. I find it fascinating to go to a new place and learn which plants have been growing there on there own and not introduced by humans. Now pulling out my hair. To funny. Patti

If the two themes (and I like the way ecrane defined them) are both declared part of the forum, maybe the distinction between native/indigenous and naturalized/wild plants could be made at the top of the forum, to try to head off some confusion.

Patti, I do realize that "native" and "indigenous" aren't precisely the same thing... but for practical intents and purposes, I think this forum could easily be said to address both. I'm not quite sure if you have a problem with changing the name to include both terms, or if you're only objecting to dropping "indigenous" from the forum title...?

Terry, am I reading too much in to this? Is DG thinking of getting rid of or changing the name of the forum "Indigenous"? How much more activity is actually required? DG already has so many forums to choose from that if Indigenous has less activity than others, it is actually serving the purpose of pulling in viewers who would otherwise go to a non-DG site. Are the DG advertisers threatening to pull out? Maybe DG isn't the right fit for Glam.com. I could think of thousands of other web advertisers and potential advertisers that would find DG a perfect targeted media. I need Indigenous and Invasive as well as Trees &Shrubs, NE Gardening, and Wildlife. There are a number of DG who I would follow if they chose to post somewhere else, and that would be DG's loss. Please keep the forum and the name, Indigenous as it is.

Here is the photo.

Sarah, would there be any harm in adding the term "native" to the forum's name?

It's not a question of advertisers, just a matter of making the forum easier for people to find. I know what indigenous means, and I still hadn't noticed the forum... "Native Plants" would probably have caught my eye.

And yes, I've added it to my "favorites" now, although I haven't posted anything yet. :-)

Sarahn, nobody's proposing getting rid of the forum. Some of the people who participate in the forum (not the admins!) suggested the idea of updating the name to include terms such as native which more people might understand so that more people are attracted to participate in the forum (the theory being that there are a lot of people out there who don't know what indigenous means, but might be very interested in talking about native plants or some of the other appropriate subjects for the forum).

I vote for 2 forums. Leave the Indigenous Plant forum and add Native to the title any way you like. Native/Indigenous Plants would attract all the people looking for native plants. And add a site for Where the Wild Things Grow - Planting on the Wild Side - Plants found in the Wild.

Well, I'm blushing. I should've read through the thread more thoroughly. My bad, as I don't want to send rumors flying. Personally, a little nomenclature controversy keeps things spicy. Perhaps its just cabin fever and we all need to get out and plant something!
Oh, yeah, sorry about hangin' my backyard out like that! I'm slow gettin' IT.

Oops, I must have missed something. When did we switch over to only talking about adding the word Native to the existing Indigenous Plants Forum and not adding words to include non-native plants, naturalized plants, or introduced wildflowers? I'm very happy and was thinking all along two forums would be best particularly with a new one called "Plants Found In The Wild" or similar.

How about My Weeds and Not My Weeds??

I think Terry had expressed reluctance to split it into two forums because the one that's there doesn't get a ton of traffic. To me it does feel like it's two different type of discussions so from a subject matter perspective you could argue for separate forums, but I think the only way it'll actually happen is if the traffic picks up and there are a decent number of conversations on both themes.

Right... especially since "plants found in the wild" (suggested name for a "new" forum) was pretty much the original title of this forum. LOL@ how we've come full circle here!

Let's please consider two separate forums please. The existing Indigenous Plants forum probably doesn't get the traffic because of the identity issues referenced earlier.

Just as the new Basket Weaving forum was created apart from the "Crafts and Decorating" and "Artisans" forums, I truly believe a "Plants Found In The Wild" forum should be created apart from the Indigenous Plants Forum.

Chances are pretty good there'd be even more support for a "Plants Found In The Wild" forum than a Basket Weaving Forum because this is a gardening site. Just a thought because I couldn't help but notice the brand new addition of a basket weaving forum as well as the thread that prompted the addition of same. I'd certainly be interested in a "Plants Found In The Wild" forum as suggested by angele because I already share photos in other forums that would fit nicely into such a forum but more so because the Indigenous Plants Forum would be left to stand alone hopefully with a name change to Native - Indigenous Plants to increase traffic to the board.

The Plants Found in the Wild forum - would that be limited to only plants found in the wild... where would people post things that are in their garden that are a "wildflower" they grow in their garden but not "native". What about just calling it a Wildflower Forum to include the ones people grow in their gardens.

This message was edited Feb 16, 2008 11:03 PM

A new forum for "Plants Found In The Wild and Wildflowers" would cover it all quite nicely and would be absolutely wonderful combined with a name change of "Indigenous Plants" to "Native Plants" or adding the word Native to the existing forum.