Would a new name for "Indigenous Plants" make it more active

Hey tobasco, I thought her suggestion was a hoot too. How technical do you want to get regarding the California Poppy ;) The California Poppy is pretty native in CA regardless of where it reseeds itself. That's its natural range. They would be indigenous to everywhere that they were documented as having occurred prior to European Settlement. In other words, no bird from CA flew over the Rockies and pooped it out in FL. Nurseries propagated the plant and distributed it to other states just as they exported it to other countries.

Oops, posting when you were posting frostweed. Nope, but lots of companies that sell wildflower mixes toss some seeds of native plants into their mixes which muddies the waters for people picking up their little meadow or prairie in a shaker can. They want to capitalize on the people who want to use native plants in their landscapes who don't quite have enough experience to be able to discern what's native for their landscape and what isn't so they lump it all into the category of wildflower and slap a pretty label on the can that evokes fond memories of running through fields of flowers as a child. It's marketing and it's big business because they want to sell their product. It's unlawful to label those shaker cans as native plant mixes because of the "technical" definitions.

And yup, it was lawyers who parsed out the definitions that are now currently in use. Great definition of a native plant provided by our Environmental Protection Agency here-
http://www.epa.gov/greenacres/nativeplants/factsht.html

For my own personal gardening style, I try to use natives that are from my County or adjacent counties but I will plant US natives from other states that aren't aggressive and I will also plant species that aren't even native to anywhere in the US but that's just me. That doesn't mean I would refer to the ditch lilies that have naturalized alongside the road or my hostas as being natives though just because they are well adapted to the particular area in which I garden.

And therein lies the rub!! Sometimes the introduced natives take over because they like it so well in their new areas.

And people in native plant societies mostly agree among themselves what is 'native'. It's those folks not in the societies who most often have different definitions/perspectives on 'native' and 'not native'. Thus all the political issues.

Bingo tobasco! But it's not just the people in native plant societies but our government and the governments of other countries too. Their governments want us importing exotics that could get aggressive into their countries about as much as our government wants them importing aggressive exotics into ours. Matter of fact, there is talk right now of tightening the definitions to avoid people casually reclassifying. If you would like, I can send you some of the documents I've received- rather interesting and I don't quite understand why they are going to even entertain the idea of expanding upon the existing definition of native plant but I'm sure all will be revealed at some point in time. I don't think it's so politically charged any longer for gardeners who figure it people only want to garden with native plants for what ever reason it's their prerogative and vice versa but it was more so the nursery industry up against the government. It was the mention of white lists that got the nursery industry all jittery a few years ago. Talk of white lists has died down now.

Thanks. But documents are beyond me. My interest in the political aspects is fairly tangential. A local friend of mine is interested in this in Columbus (our state capital). We have a few growers in our state (Monrovia and Scotts/Miracle Grow) who have maintained interest in the issue, too, and that is where she finds her work.

'Who knew' such a thread topic could provide such lively banter! Must go now!

You can see why I recommended what I did...

Oh Victor, you are such a sweetheart with a sense of humor to boot.

Say tobasco, The documents are currently beyond me too. I don't understand why they don't just leave things be.

That being said, I'd be a proponent of changing the name of the Indigenous Plants Forum to Native Plants. I think the people who would have opposed such a name change have all moved on.

Nighty night all.

Relatively Native should do it.

So....if we take the plunge, is the consensus it should be called:

1) "Natives"
2) "Natives and Naturalized Plants"
3) "Natives and Wild Plants"

I don't think Natives alone would work. Native Plants would be fine. Adding a whole new class of plant by adding "Naturalized Plants" or "Wild Plants" to the name of the Forum probably isn't a real good idea for reasons already mentioned by you previously but maybe if there's enough interest a whole new forum for Naturalized Plants could be created.

I vote for
"Local Stuff, Weeds and Unmentionables"

That's what most Natives are, kinda, right?


sorry :)) not enough coffee yet, going back to my corner now.

This message was edited Feb 16, 2008 9:12 AM

Good point on "natives" vs. "native plants".

The reason I brought up the wild/naturalized is because this forum was originally called "wild plants" and as such it contains several years of posts about wildflowers and naturalized plants.

I still prefer to include the word "Indigenous" which indicates pre-European introduction. On Nantucket, we have many plants that are considered "native" but are later introductions by the early white settlers and on into the 1800's, but they are not the same group as the true "indigenous plants" and should be differentiated. Patti

So I would think, "Natives, Indigenous and Naturalized Plants"

It's been too long, I can't recall much other than one day there was a forum named Indigenous Plants. If there are a few posts in there for wildflowers and such, maybe they could be moved to a more appropriate forum as has been done in the past when other forums changed focus or when new forums were created and an area that was more appropriate was made available? They probably could just be left because I can't recall any of those really old threads even popping up lately.

I think "Native Plants and Wildflowers" sounds great.

Maybe it's best to just leave it the way it is although it would be nice to have it appear in a search engine. The vast majority of people who are interested in these types of plants will probably start their search with the word native not indigenous. Like sempervirens, I'd like to see more "native" plant people finding their way to the forum ;)

Here's where it all started: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/41880/

And a quick glimpse through the early posts will show a lot of threads on plants native to various European countries and the UK, as well as North America.

I don't mind a name change as long as it doesn't incite a riot.

But whatever we call it, we all need to remember DG is international and the term "native" isn't limited to North American native plants. Anyone from anywhere may come to this forum to discuss plants native to them. There may also be gentle souls who have wild/naturalized plants they want to discuss here, and they should be permitted to do so without being lectured on the evils of introducing any non-native plants to their gardens. ;o)

'Plants that were here before anyone looked.'

Before my time. Some of those threads and posts are very old. Many of the contributors aren't even active or aren't subscribers any longer.

I don't mind a name change at all and it's preferable to clear up the issues with the word indigenous because it's simply too long to type and most people simply don't realize the two words are interchangeable as pertains to plants. Not a good idea to create a title that will do the equivalent of lumping Perennials and Annuals together. Creates confusion. I believe the intent of the forum when the name was changed to Indigenous Plants several years ago was to be able to provide an area outside of other forums where gardeners who conscientiously chose to garden with species that were indigenous to their areas could gather and talk about gardening with native plants because there were so many other areas of the forums where wildflowers were already being discussed. Although plants like Queen Anne's Lace, Chicory, Shasta daisies, Lily of the Valley, English Ivy, ditch lilies, and hawkweeds are beautiful plants; they wouldn't even be in the running for a NA native plant gardener... a few would be great for someone who gardens in China but we don't seem to have a lot of members from China even interested in that forum. When a person asks for native plant suggestions for their landscape, odds are real high that in order for them to have asked that question they are not looking for other gardeners to suggest they use wildflowers yet this is frequently what happens because of gardeners who don't realize there really is a very big difference between the two classes of plants. Places the person who asked for the native plant suggestion in an awkward postion. The gardeners who are from other countries aren't an issue in the least in my humble opinion. It's great when they share plants native to where they garden. And it's great when people travel and share photos of plants indigenous to another Country.

Personally, there are quite a few gardeners who jump right on who all but type out the word "blech" when one mentions the word native plant as many have this preconceived notion that native plants are nothing but ugly or scraggly or weedy looking. It's a shame because many NA native plants are so incredibly beautiful. I've seen it happen over in the Perennials Forum and then some well intentioned member comes on and suggests a plant that would be inconsistent with a native plant gardener's style. Mention the word "wildflower" and images of beauty are conjured up.

Probably in everyone's best interests for so many reasons already mentioned to seriously consider keeping the existing Indigenous Plants Forum for Native Plant hobbyists and enthusiasts regardless of which country they garden in.

Equilibrium,

Okay, that explanation works. I guess I did understand after all. Thanks. I think these new-fangled definitions are doing me in. I understand the "native" to this or that area and "not native" to another area. But, to me, a wildflower is one that was not planted by people and is not tended to -- whether is a native or non-native.

In other words, a CA poppy planted in a CA garden is not a wildflower but it is a native, and when it's growing on an uncultivated hill it is a wildflower and still native. I had several flowers growing on the property last year that are not native to the area, but no one planted them so I consider them "wildflowers." If I plant CA poppies here in AL, they are not native nor are they wildflowers because I planted them. Should I see them growing along the highway (which I have not), then no one planted them and they are wildflowers but not native.

So, for me the name "Native Plants and Wildflowers" works just fine.

Karen

I understand the reasoning for keeping wildflowers out of it. I've been following this discussion with interest.

I'd like to see "Native Plants" added to the forum title, and I especially liked

"Native, Indigenous, and Naturalized Plants"

eg, Native Plants, Indigenous Plants, and Naturalized Plants (to explain why I made bbrook's "natives" into a singular form)

Okay, I agree with critterologist. The terms "wildflowers" has a different meaning for different people -- my criteria for "wildflowers" is different from some of the rest of you, which is okay.

I think we do have a basic grounding, though, for agreeing on the terms: "Native Plants, Indigenous Plants, and Naturalized Plants."

Karen

I'm glad you understand the reasoning for keeping wildflowers out of it. Would newcomers to the forums understand the difference? Perhaps you haven't noticed but I believe there were a few people who thought wildflowers were native plants. Unless one begins working with and learning about native plants, one doesn't necessarily realize there really is an incredibly big difference.

DG has several native plant nurseries that have registered in the recent past. I think in the spirit of cooperativeness there should continue to be a forum for native plant folk of all walks of life. Somewhere for all those who have an interest in native plants from the people who would just want to learn more about native plants, to the people like me, to those who exclusively use native plants in their landscapes, to those who own and operate native plant nurseries. Seems as if there's a forum for every other type of gardening style out there so why not allow the status quo to continue with a change of name from indigenous to native plants so others like cactuspatch will find their way to the forum. I do realize the current name of the forum does have recognition issues. Is there anything so wrong with allowing wildflowers to continue to be discussed in Perennials, Cottage Gardens, Public Gardens, Shady Gardens, General Discussion, or any of the other forums in which they are currently being discussed so that there continues to be a forum for indigenous plants gardeners? It's really the only place there is at DG to discuss native plants... if one makes the connection that indigenous = native for plants.

I think it should just be 'Native' as well.

For me, it would either be Native Plants or Indigenous plants (or both) I would strongly disagree with including naturalized plants. When I look for plants to go in my California natives bed, I would never in a million years consider putting something in there that was naturalized. By definition, naturalized plants were introduced and are not native to the area Technically invasive species could be considered naturalized...they've gotten out into the wild and been able to sustain themselves. And many times they probably started out just being considered naturalized, then time went on and they ended up taking over everything and wound up on the noxious weed lists.

To me, native and indigenous are pretty clear in their meaning, they refer to things that naturally occur in a particular area. One can quibble about the dates before which they had to exist there in order to count, but I think everyone gets the idea. Wildflowers can sometimes be used to refer to natives, but often it's also used for non-natives, so it's just confusing. And in my mind, a naturalized plant would not be considered a native at all.

There's the itsie bitsy cause for concern.

Naturalized plants are never native or indigenous plants. They are always exotics.

How about a forum for Wildflowers, Naturalized Plants, and other Exotics while keeping the existing forum as Indigenous Plants or Native Plants or Native/Indigenous Plants or Native - Indigenous Plants? Search engines would pick up both words then for the minority who type indigenous rather than native. IThat might solve all the issues with gardeners who think wildflowers are native plants. What it really comes down to is that what a gardener's definition or criteria for wildflower is or isn't doesn't really get determined by any of us. It's already been determined and working definitions are out there for the taking however old habits die hard and people still think the word wildflower is synonymous with native plant while wildflower is certainly more appropriately aligned with naturalized plant.

My thoughts exactly...and looks like we had them at exactly the same time! LOL

I don't have any problem with excluding "naturalized" plants. I think the most important thing is to get the term "native plants" into the title, so that it'll be more obvious to folks what the forum is about.

Native and Indigenous Plants

How would that be?

While there may be enough interest in Wildflowers (and naturalized plants, if specifically included in forum title) to create another forum, I'd be happier discussing wildflower meadows over in an existing forum such as Cottage Gardening... but then, I'm often the lone voice saying, do we really need a separate forum for that? :-)

For what it is worth, my preference is leaving it alone. If someone has trouble finding plants that are indigenous to a particular area all that they need do is ask a question. With over 300k people in DG someone has the answer.

Works for me but simply Native Plants is fine too because that's what something like 99% of all native gardeners refer to them as.

If 'Indigenous' was not drawing anyone, why leave it in? Would someone who was posting on that thread (only 21 posts last week - hopefully more than one person!) NOT come to the newly named forum? If 'indigenous' attracts someone, chances are 'native' will as well.

"Indigenous" might come up in a search or be a term more familiar to folks in other countries... basically, I don't think it does any harm to leave the word in the forum title, do you?

Please remember, the current "Indigenous Plants" forum was launched as "Wild Plants"

We expanded it to encompass "native" plants (but used "indigenous" when we realized just how incendiary and divisive the term "native" was.) I suspect the only reason more "wild plants" topics haven't been posted to it is due to the conflicts and hostilities of a couple years ago, which pretty much snuffed out the activity in that forum.

Personally, I think it would be better to give history its due credit, and have "naturalized" or "wild plants" in the title, if for no other reason than out of respect for the forum's original purpose and intent, and to give people who want to talk about those plants a place to do so. There's a big difference between a roadside "weed" and a cultivated perennial, and I (speaking personally) don't think it's quite fair to evict those discussions from the forum that was originally intended for them ;o)

Yes, you raise a very valid point ecrane3. Other countries use the word indigenous. Because DG has so many members from other countries, the word Indigenous really should be kept in the title. There is also the issue that some equate the word indigenous with pre-European settlement that it would address also.

The problem with the word indigenous is that many NA gardeners simply weren't making the connection that the Indigenous Plants Forum was really for Native Plants, that's all. NA gardeners do dominate the membership at DG most probably because the language we use is English. It sure did take me a long time to grow accustomed to typing out the word indigenous as opposed to native. Using the word native will most assuredly attract more gardeners who were looking for that kind of a board. Indigenous, whaz that mean with the flood on the Internet of Native Plant articles and all these Native Plant Societies and Native Plant .orgs and Native Plant nurseries? Think about it, when's the last time you ever saw an Indigenous Plant article? How about an Indigenous Plants Society or an Indigenous Plant .org let alone an Indigenous Plant nursery. There's recognition in the term native when associated with plants where there isn't in the term indigenous. Call it branding, call it what ever but the use of the term indigenous created confusion for quite a few NA gardeners. Few were familiar with it used in that context.

Ha ha - looks like we're going in circles again! If the forum was only as active as this thread, there would be no problem. Seems like a government meeting - 'Let's talk about what we will talk about.' Maybe 'Plants Found Outside the Garden'.

A native plant can be a perennial or an annual or it can be herbaceous or deciduous or evergreen or... or... or... one thing we frequently overlook is that the one common denominator binding them all together collectively as "native plants" is that they are documented as plants having been "indigenous" to a particular area prior to European settlement here in the US and very similar definitions are used by other countries although many of them go back farther in the time line than Americans do. No matter how long a plant like Ox-eye Daisy has been growing in the field of our childhood, alongside the road we travel to and from work, or in our gardens, they will never be native plants here on the continent of NA no matter how beautiful and easy to grow they are.

The word native when used as a descriptive adjective for a plant is intended to clarify, actually so is indigenous. The word wild actually seems to have a few definitions of which one is "living in a state of nature; not tamed or domesticated" while another is "growing or produced without cultivation" while another definition is "unrestrained, untrammeled, or unbridled" so I could see where the word wild in front of the word plant could be subject to interpretation. So many other areas of the forums are available for discussion of non-native plants that it would be really nice to provide a readily recognizable forum for native / indigenous plant folk since there really would be no place to go specifically for them if the word naturalized is added to the forum title.

I found Dave's Garden through a web search to identify a plant found while hiking. I would really like to have a forum to share photos & friendly chat about wildflowers and plants (mine & yours) that have been found while away from the garden. Is 'Indeginous Plants' the place for me or is that mainly for plants in the garden?

Most seem to go which ever area of the forums look like the best match in that particular scenario but many end up over in the Photos Forum-
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/f/photos/all/
Everyone loves photos such as what you described over there. I know I do but there's also a Forum that includes hiking-
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/f/camping/all/

This seems to be getting mired down into the same semantic arguments we had last time around - and I really don't want to see that happen.

For the record - I agree that "native" is much clearer to a lot of our audience than "indigenous".

Call me naive, but (despite the previous arguments - most of which were made by people who are no longer here), I still fail to see why the forum's name or content has to be mutually exclusive.

It's not like a thread about a native plant will "contaminate" a forum where naturalized/wild plants are also discussed.

Nor will adding threads regarding "naturalized" (or "wild plants") render the entire forum inhospitable for threads discussing native plants.

That's like saying if you allow a thread regarding solidago in the perennials forum, the baptisia lovers will have nowhere to talk.

The only way that can happen is if the baptisia lovers are completely intolerant of discussing any perennial other than baptisia, and insist on lecturing the solidago lovers on how moronic they are if they don't embrace the "baptisias-only" manifesto.

I just read back through all the posts and it seems as if many of the people interested in including wildflowers in the title somehow were asking for inclusion because they thought they were native plants. Appears the biggie was getting traffic up via a name change or addition to the existing name so gardeners would be able to recognize where to go to discuss native plants.

How about flying with one of the suggestions for titling the forum Native - Indigenous Plants and see if that brings the traffic up over time to what hart and others (myself included) would like?

I vote for keeping the "Indigenous Plants " forum as it is, and adding a new forum called
"Native Plants and Wildflowers" that way we could all be happy. Right?