Would a new name for "Indigenous Plants" make it more active

Could I suggest perhaps renaming this forum "Wildflowers and Native Plants" or something. I know we have lots of people growing wildflowers and native plants but this forum has virtually no activity. Perhaps people are confused by the name?

Hart, every time I want to check it, I have to hunt for it, as I forget the name. I think your suggestion is a good one.

Chuckle...that forum undoubtedly suffers from an identity crisis, it's been renamed so many times.

"Native" is a pretty controversial and inflammatory term (go figure.) The "native" proponents don't like being lumped in with "wildflowers" or "wild plants" (as this forum was once called.)

Aside from the politics, the term "native" begs the question: native to where? If we were an exclusively US or North American forum, that question would answer itself. But we're international, and every "exotic" plant is "native" to somewhere.

I've heard this argument before, Terry. To me a plant is native or not native to wherever you want to grow it. Other countries might have a different definition, but in the U.S., I believe "native" refers to prior to European immigration.

Since we don't have a forum for every state in the union and every country on earth, the best we can do is have a "natives" forum where people who are growing plants "native to their area" can discuss same. No reason why a forum can't handle subjects on plants for different areas, is there? If a prayer forum can be tolerated by those who don't believe in it, I don't see why a native plants forum can't be. Are the politics really that bad? I have no experience of it, so I really don't know.

I'm really not that fussed about it. I know where to get information on native CA plants and wildflowers and people aren't the least inflamed about the terms. :-)

Kathleen

Terry,

I can see what you are saying about "native plants" -- but to me, when a person is speaking of a native plant, it is a plant that is native to that person's area unless it is defined as being "native to . . . ". It didn't occur to me that there was a different way to look at it. California poppies are "native plants" in California but here in Alabama they are not. LOL. I also didn't realize there was a forum for them -- whatever it's name -- and I bet I am a long way from being alone on that score -- it definitely deserves more recognition.

Karen

Well, the native plant organization I belong to apparently has no problem with the term "native plant". A Texas native plant has to have been present in Texas before the Europeans came here. Not always easy to determine that, but we try.

"indigenous" by definition MEANS native to a land or region , especially in reference to people and plants.looks like a simple semantics problemo to me.

right... nobody's arguing the meaning of "indigenous," but it's not as widely used a term in popular gardening as "native plant" or "wildflower."

I'm in favor of the name change... I admit, I'd been overlooking this forum... and I know full well what "indigenous" means, LOL. "Wildflowers and Native Plants" would have caught my eye.

:-)

I'm not against a name change - but I can tell you that indeed, the feelings can run very high when it comes to native plants. Some of the worst episodes we've had at DG were over native and invasive plants.

The Virginia Native Plant Society is apparently not PC either.

I think we're almost straining to be obtuse in calling native plants "indigenous" or to worry about whether a plant is native to every locality on earth, since I doubt if many of those plants exist. (I checked - there doesn't appear to be an Anarctica Native Plants Society.) I've never heard the term native plants used in any way other than to describe plants native to a particular locale.

My point, however, is that the term must not be making much sense to people who garden with wildflowers and native plants since there is practically no activity in that forum.

Maybe it could just be the wildflower forum. I'd simply like to have a place where we can discuss wildflowers. I'd just as soon not get into flower politics, whatever that is.

Ya, wildfower politics can are not PRETTY! ;-)

Terry, I would hope this forum could be a place to discuss gardening with wildflowers and native plants and not where people would come to argue about or badger others about invasive plants. I've seen some describe every plant that will eventually spread or self sow as invasive, including plants that were native to that locale.

Perhaps a simple understanding that if a plant isn't designated as invasive by that person's home state it's not invasive would solve the invasive plant wars.

I guess I'm unclear why the term "indigenous plants" doesn't cause the same high feelings as "native plants"... but apparently I (thankfully) missed those particular blow-ups.

Or do invasive plant controversies not find the indigenous plant forum simply because there's no traffic there?

What about simply adding "Wildflowers" to the current forum name?

"Wildflowers and Indigenous Plants"

?

I think if you add in the term "wildflower", you're going to wind up with a lot of discussion of people growing things that are not native to their area. There are so many places that sell packets of "wildflower" seeds of which maybe a few are native to the area where they end up being planted but the majority aren't. I haven't participated in the indigenous plants forum much (maybe not at all?) so it doesn't matter to me either way, but I think it's worth considering how people are going to define wildflowers and decide if you want to open up the forum to those discussions or not.

As to why indigenous might not raise the same feelings as the term native, it could be that a lot of people don't know what it means. I saw someone a few weeks ago using that term to refer to those totally over-used plants that everyone had growing in their yards (and which were clearly not native to the area)

You know, it's not illegal or immoral to grow plants in your yard that aren't native to your yard unless they happen to be banned in your particular state. Actually, I imagine even then it's only illegal to import them and not to grow them.

My point is that the term indigenous is not commonly used, particularly by those who care about and garden with native plants (ahem, see the California Native Plants Society), and obviously doesn't ring a bell with members here. If it did, I think you'd see a lot of discussion in that forum rather than very little.

As to the discussion you saw, if we're going to not use any term because someone who doesn't know what they're talking about misuses it, we're going to have a lot of banned gardening terms around here. LOL But I would say there are a lot more people who don't know what indigenous plants means vs native plants.

Critter, your suggestion sounds fine to me. I just want people to know there is a place to discuss wildflowers. Little did I know I was uncovering a controversy over a commonly used terminology. :>)

Why not a simple statement at the top of the forum to behave - it's been done before - to head off these kinds of attacks? If it doesn't work, fine, it will be on the heads of the troublemakers. This hyper-PC stuff is getting me down, I'm sorry.

I didn't know this forum existed either but for a different reason. I assumed that native or indigenous plants were addressed in the various regional forums. Now I have to check this out!!

I look at the Indigenous plant forum regularly and wouldn't mind it being called Native Plants if it would attract more people. I think adding Wildflowers to the title would muddy the issue since it is a vague term and could cause more confusion. I like having a forum to go to for answers from very knowledgeable people on this topic and there are certainly some available there. More would be better.

Maybe we should change Dave's Garden to a community for botanists, not gardeners. LOL What about the poor newbie, and we have plenty of those, who has never heard them called anything but wildflowers?

Here's a list of native plant societies across the US. Most of them have titles that include "native plants." There's a healthy smattering of "wildflowers" too.
http://www.michbotclub.org/links/native_plant_society.htm

I don't care about whether it's called wildflowers or not but I'm hoping I'm making the point that calling a forum by a term that regular gardeners don't understand isn't exactly drawing them in by droves.

I agree. I don't think there's a need to get technical about defining "native plants" and "wildflowers" if the purpose of the forum is to encourage folks who want to grow plants that are naturally well suited to their locales and want to have a place to discuss them...

Do you think it would help to have a "mission statement" at the top of the forum to say something like the point of this forum is to have free and open discussions of gardening with plants that naturally occur in an area without getting into heated debates over definitions of what constitutes a native plant, indigenous species, or wildflower?

Surely there must be a way to increase the usefulness of this forum without causing a major upset...

I am a member of the NM Native Plant Society and looked for native plants but didn't see it. So whether it changes or stays the same, I don't care! At least because of this thread I know where to look now. : )

Indigenous Plants (Pre-European or "Native") and Introduced Wildflowers

or

Indigenous Plants (Native) and Introduced Wildflowers

How about 'The Forum Whose Name Cannot be Mentioned'??!

LOL...would definitely get a lot of visitors!!

Good one, Victor!

Victor,

You gave me my laugh for the day!

Karen

We could call it Weeds. DH says everything I grow is a weed somewhere else ;-)

Yep, probably is. My definition is that if it has a pretty bloom and I didn't plant it, then it's a wild flower and stays. If it doen't have a pretty bloom, whether I planted it or not (and I have planted some that meet this definition) then it's a weed, and it goes. LOL.

Karen

Victor and GGaz, have something going that makes sense. Patti

Local Stuff ,Weeds & Unmentionables

Pretty funny bbrookrd. Kinda like creating a special board for Democrats and Republicans and telling them to not get too picky about sticking to their party lines-

I'm perfectly fine with changing the forum to the name Native Plants for many of the reasons mentioned above. Actually, I think it's preferable. The terms native and indigenous are definitely interchangeable based on the Feds definitions but the term native is definitely not interchangeable with the term wildflower. Regarding activity, most people searching for information on native plants use the word native not indigenous in their searches so they don't exactly end up at that forum from the big ole www which might be another good reason to consider a change from Indigenous Plants to Native Plants.

All has been calm for several years because that forum was created specifically for gardeners who utilized native plants exclusively or almost exclusively in their landscapes. I suspect the reason why there are no controversies is because that forum keeps the native plant gardeners out of the Perennials Forum ;) Y'all haven't lived until you've seen real controversy such as that experienced by the ListServe when wetlands conservationist/restorationist/preservationist folk get real estate and developer folk registering and posting to try to get help with permitting. Happy 4th of July with each and every post added to the ListServe by a developer is about all I can say.

The term wildflower won't quite fit though or we'd end up with the equivalent of a Forum that might as well be called "Local Stuff ,Weeds & Unmentionables" or 'The Forum Whose Name Cannot be Mentioned'. Native/Indigenous plants don't naturalize because they evolved and belong in the ecosystems in which they occur. Wildflowers by definition are introduced species that have naturalized and in the past 10 years I have noticed a considerable number of "regular" gardeners who do truly understand the difference between the two. Wildflowers are always going to be exotics. And yes, some wildflowers are formally identified as being invasive but certainly not all. I see many wildflowers being discussed in the Perennials Forum. The gardeners in the Perennial Forum don't seem particularly interested in getting technical about the definition of a "native plant" v. a "wildflower" as long as they can discuss a plant they want to grow where they garden. You see, wildflowers never occur "naturally" in an area because all of them were introduced after European settlement. Thats why they are referred to as exotics/introduced species not native species. Better fit to continue discussing wildflowers over in Perennials or in any number of the genus forums already available where people don't necessarily care if a species is introduced or not as long as they can grow them well where they garden.

All wildflowers are introduced species, never natives? What about plants like California poppies or the California lupines -- are they not native to and also grow wild in California, hence they are wild flowers in California? I don't think I understand.

Karen

I was under the understanding that a wild flower is a "wild or uncultivated flowering plant"
and it can be native or introduced.

I do remember a lot of 'discussion' about 'native' plants and 'indigenous' plants and it got a bit hot.

I do think bbrookrd's suggestion is a riot and about as good as anything else!

Hey Karen, it's a hard concept. It was for me when it was first introduced.

For the sake of example, let's use your California Poppy. There are a few of them so let's go with this one- Eschscholzia californica ssp. mexicana. That plant is indigenous/native to the US and specifically to the states of AZ, CA, NM, NV, TX, UT. Outside of its native range of those six states, it would be an introduced or rather an exotic species. In other words, this plant may be native to the US but it's not native to ALL of the US. In fact in TN where the plant was widely sold and distributed, Tennessee has classified it as a Rank 3 (Lesser Threat) species or rather an "exotic plant species that spreads in or near disturbed areas", but not presently considered a threat to native plant communities per the Tennessee Exotic Pest Plant Council. In Australia, Chile, and Argentina where the California Poppy was widely distributed as an ornamental; it is now classified as a serious weed and I believe Australia may have recently classified it as an invasive species because it is now documented as having successfully "naturalized" in their country which has displaced Australian native plants.

So, your California Poppy is a "wildflower" in Australia that many people adore and a mild mannered native in the states in which it occurs naturally but would be an introduced species to Alabama and Illinois where you and me garden.

I'm dizzy all of a sudden...

Yes, but it's both a 'native' and a 'wildflower' in, say, California, right?

So are they "Indigenous" in Calif etc and an "introduced wildflower" everywhere except where they are classified as a
"Native"? Patti

I am getting a little mixed up on this, but I know lawyers who specialize in parsing out this terminology.

It's amazing that plants respect political boundaries like state lines! LOL

Well...I don't understand why people would get hot under the collar about it. I know lots of people dedicated to native plants and I don't recall any problem with the word native. If it's native to the U.S., that's good enough as far as I'm concerned, although with aggressive species you have to be cautious depending on the specific climate where you live.

Well, for that matter, some plants only native to Mexico are often better adapted here in the hill country of Texas than those native to Maine, for example.