Winter Sowing Database page 2

we are continuing from here...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/794314/

Please use this thread to discuss the new database.
If you are wanting to add information to the database, please locate the plant in the PlantFiles and scroll down to the bottom of the page where you will find a link to enter the information.

If you are looking for the data that has already been entered, please use this link....

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/ws/

Lets use this thread to ask questions about the database, or discuss Winter sowing (aka Polar Planting in my neck of the woods-LOL) and lets have fun :o)

Robbi

Pupil I answered in the other thread but in case you didn't read it there
I'm no expert. Winter sowing for 1st time this year but from what I've read I believe "cold frame" sowing is Winter sowing.

Whether you plant in an unheated greenhouse or milk jugs or a cold frame it's all the same method. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me.

I appreciate it Pam. Opened up a new door for me.

Robbi, ;^)

Hi all, here's to hoping this one will stay calm and on the subject! :)

Bravo! I just checked out the entries done so far and must say I am impressed. And thanks for the link to the Winter Sowing forum. I somehow missed that it existed!

Pamsaplantin.... I don't know either and wondered about cold frames. Orginally being from the North, my dad when I was younger would go out and dig down several inches into the ground , line the inside walls with some 2'x '4's to keep the dirt from caving back down. Then he would go find old window famrs people had thrown out and put that on the top. As the temps eventually would get warm he would prop a stick to open the lid a bit and close it at night til it was time for plantign them.

When it came time, he would brush the snow of f the top, put his pots of seeds in and wait for them to grow. I have always considere d this winter sowing too. To me just having the glass is a form of protection to keep critters out and it helps heat the soil a bit faster using that greenhouse effect.

Would be nice to know what others think. Some times some of his plants made it and some didn't. Besides protectign the seeds, this was a way of tryign to get the temps up faster to break dormancy on some seeds that normally would take longer and maybe not have time to fruit before winter came back again.

Are folks going to ad d in the comment s section if the using cold frames too besides jugs and such?

E wrote

pupilpropogtr wrote:

Starflight, I think there are some differences between WSing and using a cold frame. One is that you don't get moisture in a cold frame, you have to water because seed germination requires it. Two is that WSing can be done using materials on hand, which I think is a big part of the purpose of WSing. It's for everybody who can't afford a coldframe or don't have the right conditions for one, like me. I just have a balcony, so no room for cold frame.

OTOH, if you have a cold frame you could use it to put in your containers of seeds and just leave the top up. What do others think?

since i was unsure of what a cold frame actually was/does [though i did see a pic of one in a thread last year]
i googled it
http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/guide4.shtml
if you scroll down, it gives explanations

Coldframes can be made pretty inexpensively from materials on hand, and you could probably make them in a fashion that would allow rain in through small openings in the top, if you wanted. If you "winter sow" in containers or locations that don't allow rain to reach the seeds, you'll have to water, that's true. A friend of mine did a few winter sown milk jugs last year and put them on her back porch, because that's where they were best protected against dogs, kids, etc... since the porch had a roof, she just watered periodically by putting the jugs into a tray of water for about 15 minutes so they could soak up moisture through their drainage holes.

maybe these distinctions mean we do need a "methods" field? Or can we just indicate in the "comments" section if we sowed seeds in a cold frame, vented container, etc? For that matter, although others have said differently on the previous thread, I do consider direct sowing in winter to be a form of "winter sowing," just not a "closed vented container" thing.

The answer to a lot of this is probably just to encourage people to make comments when they enter information. More information is better! :-)

Thanks for pointing out the differences and such folks. : ) Don't want to put something in the wrong way in the database. I think I will consider winter sowing of seeds one way and then cold framing as another type of propagation.

Or you could just enter into the comments field that you planted them in a cold frame and describe how you did it, eg., slits in the cold frame cover.

I think the cold frame would be in the Propogation Database that has not been created yet, instead of the WS Database. WS is usually started about Dec 22 with the Winter Solstice. Coldframes are much later and can be used anywhere, with anything. It is a fine line of distinction. I am not trying to draw the line because I am not sure where it lies.

A propagation database. Fantastic!!! Can't wait for that one to be created. Goody..Goody.. Goody. Ok, think I'll save my cold frame information for the day that database gets created and just put out my winter sowning , out in the open things in the new database.

I would think a cold frame would qualify for winter sowing. All we're really doing when we create our little containers is creating mini-cold frames, no? I've used a cold frame before. It was made out of old window glass from a house that was torn down. Nothing special. I have seen some pretty elaborate ones using sliding glass doors.

Well, the difference is nil if the cold frame has a porous top that will provide moisture to the seeds/seedlings.

I believe the philosophy of 'polar planting' is that the process is relatively maintenance free and easy to start the seeds (if it is done right with a bit of luck, too.). So basically no worry to speak of about watering.

Of course, the top of the cold frame could be rigged to allow moisture through and then that would be similar to the large containers with clear tops some are using...

I think we need to define what "winter sowing" means as opposed to using a "cold frame". I happen to do both, but I can see where it would be very confusing for someone who has not done this before. For example:
I winter sow both in the ground and in pots. It depends on what I'm planting. And I should state up front, my area of experience is primarily with vegetables. But, I plant things like tomatoes, squash, spring broccoli, cauliflower that sort of thing in pots, usually around mid Jan, which works with my earliest frost date. I plant snow peas and broadcast additional things like spinach in a sheltered location. I'm pushing the envelope there and I know it. Once harden off in the cold frame, I use row covers, and cloches to help protect the seedlings until the ground temp rises. I'm doing that in conjunction with already prepared soil, we turn the beds in the winter adding lots of organic materials etc. And I use those bags of leaves over the area, their dark colored and draw the heat into the soil.
I don't have a lot of experience with perennials, but I would think the principles are the same.
You need to think about and understand:
1. What's the latest frost date in your area?
2. What's the maturity date of the seeds you're trying to grow? And if possible the germination date of the seeds
3. If your concerned about the "age" of your seed, use the Bokashi method to determine the percentage of germination. That will give you a good indication of now only when to plant but how many. I love to push the envelope and I know up front that sometimes it's not going to work, but when it does, Oh boy is that great!
I hope this wasn't too much in "lecture" mode, but I know how discouraging it can be when you plant and it doesn't come up or doesn't come up as well as you hoped. Of the soap box, now........LOL

Oops, that should be lastest frost date, sorry

This message was edited Dec 3, 2007 8:25 PM

Disclaimer: of course, I'm no expert, but, I'll go on anyway! LOL Yes, "wintersowing" as used in the DG forum of that name is planting out seed in soil in the closed clear container with slits to allow moisture in (or mini-greenhouse) in winter and then transplanting them into the garden when the weather is fairer.

I would say that planting seeds out in the garden, even though in a sheltered garden area, is not 'wintersowing' in the specific way we have been using the term. Using cloches and row covers is a very interesting technique and another effective way to sow seed in wintertime and early spring to extend the growing season...

A link to more info on extending the growing season using covers and cloches:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/2007-02-01/Garden-Know-how.aspx


This message was edited Dec 3, 2007 8:03 PM

LOL-I just have to add here that it makes me giggle every time someone uses "Polar Planting"...I can't get rid of this image in my head of a Polar bear sitting on an iceberg with a little trowel and a garden stake with a carrot on it-LOL perhaps a scarf blowing in the wind, or earmuffs on...I think I will have to draw it just for Daves :o)
Robbi

LOL Too funny, Robbi! :)

If you're artistic go for it. I think that would be a great mascot. Personally, I could never pull it off. No one would be able to tell what it was. My drawing is usually limited to stick figures. I once got an F on an art assignment to draw a picture of my own hand. The teacher thought I traced around my hand like in kindergarten. Thankfully my mom had seen me spend hours working on it & set the teacher straight. She changed the grade to an A. I think she felt sorry for me.

pamsaplantin, don't feel bad. We had that same assignment in high school art. I worked on mine until it looked almost photographic. The instructor looked at it and said "great detail and shading but it looks like it belongs on a deformed prehistoric dwarf" I laid it down on the desk and posed my hand on the desk by it. The instructor turned beet red and said "sorry" and walked away real fast. That was the last time I ever even seriously tried to draw anything.

ahhh that is a shame!!!!!

That teacher should have been fired.
I used to be very artistic, but never seem to find the time. Last night my son needed a drawing done and he HATES drawing because he says he can't do it...so I helped. I know we are both in trouble today-LOL
He says he is going to tell the teacher that "we did it together" which we did, he colored what I drew :o)

I got really busy yesterday and wasn't able to get into these threads. What a difference a weekend + one day makes! So many entries, and so much feedback.

Could someone summarize all the feedback and TODO items here for me? If I could get that help, then I think I can maximize my efforts here.

From my perspective and that of a few others-
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4250156

Others would like other enhancements and they would be best to summarize them for you.

I think the biggest thing is to get a true definition of Polar Planting verses cold frames and planting out directly into your yard.

Other than that-we had a bit of a bump when someone from the dark side showed up to stir the pot a bit (hence the new thread), we had tons of great feedback about the database...and several members are looking forward to general sowing info being added later.

Robbi

Robbi, I think this is going to absolutely super. It's too bad about the "dark" side getting their panties in a bunch, but oh well. I just hope they remember that what goes around, comes around. Karma can be an ugly thing. At least we know that is database with us be as mistake free as possible, nobody here would do that on purpose, I'm quite sure. There appears to be a huge pool of highly experienced gardeners willing to share of themselves and their experience just for the pleasure of sharing the info. Nice people to hang with. Waying to all the other like minded DG's! LOL

Dave,
I'm going to venture my personal opinion here. I don't think we need to "define" winter sowing so narrowly. That's where we get into infringing on someone's idea that they created "wintersowing". My greatgrandparents used cold frames to start plants for the garden back when you couldn't run out to the local garden center to purchase them. That's winter sowing. The idea is that plants can be put out to germinate when Ma nature tells them to. There are different methods - cold greenhouse, milk jugs, coldframe - but it's all Winter sowing (2 words). And I think we need to keep it broad to include all those methods especially since we are trying not to cause ill feelings elsewhere. That's my 2 cents.

I'm with Pam. Also, seeds that will sprout in a vented milkjug will generally also do well in a cold frame or an unheated greenhouse or with being direct sowed into an outdoor seedbed in January... knowing what method somebody used is helpful, but there's a lot of potential overlap in what methods will work for various seeds in various locations.

I would tend to agree with pamsaplantin. I've used fully enclosed cold frames to successfully sow seeds in winter. They were vented by the very nature of the left over materials I used which were old window frames on hinges attached to a frame. I basically just set trays into the cold frames and left them.

I agree with Pam. Otherwise we get back to "I invented winter sowing because I thought of using milk jugs", which we really, really don't need."

I hate transplanting little seedlings. I'm going to try putting a few seeds in a larger pot and see if I can grow them to transplant size in that with a clear cover of some kind over them. To me, at least, this is still winter sowing (Polar Planting).

Karen

I definitely prefer the term "winter sowing" to polar planting. We want to be in synch with the rest of the planet. DG exists not just for its current members but for all those gardeners out there who are potential members. I have mixed feelings about expanding the definition. I think we ought to use the US Dept. of Agriculture's definition: "A propagation method used throughout the winter where temperate climate seeds are sown into protective containers and placed outdoors to foster a naturally timed, high percentage germination of climate tolerant seedlings."

I agree, definitely.

The additional methods of "sowing in winter" (cold frames, etc) could certainly wait for an expansion of this effort into more of a general propagation or seed starting database... Using the USDA's definition makes sense to me.

And the term "polar planting," while cute, just makes me wince because it reminds me of the unpleasantness on the other thread. I think we've established that there's no copyright on the term "winter sowing," so let's not feel awkward about using that.

I, too, am amazed at how quickly this project has taken off! I'll be keeping track of my data better this year so I can contribute good notes of my own. :-)

I certainly agree with that definition. I just think we need to clarify for the beginners especially that there are many different ways to "winter sow" and get good results. I can tell from some of the threads that some are confused, I don't think they realize it's all basically the same thing, it's just different methods being used to get the final product. Having such a diverse choice is great because you can adapt what works best for you in your zone. Good stuff, this is exciting!

I would like it keep it general. Plus, I would like to see the name changed from "winter sowing" (so as not to ignite any more fires) to something like "sowing seeds in outdoor containers throughout the year". We can utilize the principles taught to us in winter sowing, but many do not start germinating certain seeds until Spring, Summer or Fall. Would we still want to use the term "winter sowing"? This may cause unnecessary confusion. I'm sure we could come up with a more creative title, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Exactly Shirley! Use the methods and information and build the skills. Besides avoiding further the hissie fits, one hopes.

I don't mind about any of these-whatever the majority wants :o)

As for me, I will alays call my winter fun "Polar Planting" It got very ugly and this is my way of poking fun at what happened...besides Look out my back door right this minute...Do you blame me??
I put those black pots out there 4 hours ago-LOL

"Polar Planting" is exactly what I do.