Not meaning to be a bugbear but....

Oh definitely the SUBJECT matter is for all Wallaby I was just talking about pointing out certain peoples articles.

Maybe aside from policies etc. theres some way we can tweek this to be more considerate of the photographer.

I definitely agree there should be a more obvious credit for the photographer.

I think this was an unfortunate (and hopefully rare) situation where an image owner disagreed philosophically with the story in which their image was featured.

It really is a compliment to the photographer to have your image chosen to appear with a story. There are hundreds of thousands of images here at DG (over 150,000 in PlantFiles alone), and having one selected to appear in the daily article is high praise to a member's photographic skills.

A lesson learned here: the author should try to let the photographer know in advance that they would like to use one of their images. Does that give the photographer editorial control over the content of the article? For practical reasons, no. The author is working within a set of parameters that defines the type of article they should submit. They're also working under a deadline, and their content is reviewed for grammar, syntax, etc. (The expression "Too many cooks spoil the broth" comes to mind...)

That said, of course it's preferable that the photographer is pleased to have their photograph paired up with the article. But there is a small risk that occasionally they won't particularly care for the style of the article, or the photographer doesn't share the author's opinion on the subject. Hopefully this scenario will be rare, since we're not in the business of creating controversial subject matter ;o)

Terry, Is there some way we could give the photographer credit for the photos? Even with my bifocals on I can't see that that is Wallabys pic.

Well said Terry. This bit of unpleasantness should become just a memory of a small tiff among members of the big DG family. Misunderstandings and differences of opinion are to be expected in any family. We live and learn, and as in any strong, nurturing family it is time for hugs and getting back to the business of enjoying the camaraderie that we all love in Dave's Garden.

Yes we do all Love Daves!

Terry, Well said about "Lesson learned".

I just tryed a magnifying glass and still can't see Wallbys name.

Maybe there could be something at the end of the article like:

Photo Credits: Wallaby etc.?

Wow! $50.00??? That will buy a coke and a hamburger. Sure not worth it to be crucified.

Geez I don't think she was crucified (thats an awfully strong word). But there are always people who are going to disagree with an articles content. She did get support here also.

Wallyaby1, I actually looked up Bugbear and I can't imagine that being you. I'm still pretty new here and even I can see how helpful and valuable you are here. Thanks for the new word though!

sorry. that was too strong and sometimes used without thinking.

Thanks for the vote of confidence miatablu :-) (first time I have used a smiley face ~actually only recently found out what it was!)

I dug up the old meaning in Wikipedia,

"A Bugbear is a legendary creature comparable to the bogeyman, bogey, bugaboo, hobgoblin and other creatures of folklore, all of which were historically used in some cultures to frighten disobedient children. In medieval England, for instance, the Bugbear was a creepy and gigantic bear that lurked in the woods; children were warned not to stray too far from home or misbehave, for "the Bugbear will get you". In a modern context, the term serves as a metaphor for something which is annoying or irritating."

Yes LouC, I somehow have a feeling you were trying to make light of the situation, but we do sometimes say things straight from the learnt vocabulary without thinking what we are really saying. $50 to me, or about £25, buys much more than a burger and coke. I don't do such things, for one I can't afford to throw away such money, but also that I am vegetarian and don't drink coke.

I also imagine some people would really appreciate having $50 to write a story, money for some comes much harder than it does for others.

Let me state again, the complaint is NOT about the article, albeit it was not to my taste. I could easily have just ignored it if my picture had not been used. It's more about ethics.

Glad I made you smile :-)

I would love to see a close up of one of those :)

I have read posts above - about the photoghapher talking to the author about the use of a picture, but nothing about the author asking *first*. I may have (probably did) miss something here, but how could wallaby1 say 'yes' or 'no' if the article was already printed? This is the issue that should be addressed. If one of my pictures shows up somewhere without my PRIOR knowledge I will be upset.

I will be slow to post some pictures until I feel that I have a bit more control over where they might show up.

Sorry Dave and all - I'm being a bit negative again. And, yes, I'm slowly backing out of the garden. It is getting a bit too big for me.

Ya'll have fun now, I'm headed for the great outdoors -
g

Dave & Terry, I hope that you will take into consideration the 2 main points made here.

- Asking the article writer to inform the photographer of any photos used ahead of time.

- Finding a more visible way to give the photographer credit

Thanks so much! Pelle :-)

I've been following this thread, and as Shari said, as one of the contributing writers I thought I should jump in with a post. We've had some discussion on the writer's forum and with Dave about using photos, trying to make sure we all had the same understanding of the rules and ethics and courtesies involved... and it's not something we're taking lightly or casually. I've uploaded a good many photos to DG myself, so my interest here is not only as an author.

I understand that part of Wallaby's objection is to the context in which the photo was used in this one article, but I'd like to make a couple of more generally directed comments, since other articles have and will use photos from PlantFiles and Bugfiles.

As Terry pointed out, the AUP allows images uploaded to DG to be used anywhere within DG. This means that photos in PF (or BF) can be used in trade lists, posted on blooms.com, or added to one of the new daily articles. No prior knowledge or permission for its use is required. I'm sure nobody who has included such a photo in their article meant any discourtesy by it. As Terry said, it's a tribute to the skill of the photographer to have a photo chosen from the database, just as it is to have your photo appear on blooms.com.

Apart from permission not being strictly necessary, although I can see where it's nice to have somebody ask, it's not always practical. A recent article on irises incorporated a lot of PF photos, and the links to the PF entries surely made ownership of these photos very clear... but I'm not sure it would've been possible to get permission from all the people who contributed the photos in a timely fashion (or even at all, in the case of photos uploaded by people who are no longer active members).

Using photos uploaded in forum threads is more of a gray area. Although I think that would technically be covered by the AUP, I'd be startled if a photo I posted in the iris forum suddenly showed up in PF or blooms.com or even in somebody's trade list without my prior knowledge. Asking permission first definitely seems like the way to go with forum photos, but I do think of photos that I've contributed to PF as "community property."

It does seem like this particular concern might have been resolved by contacting admin or the author directly. I hope anybody who has a problem with something I've written or done will simply let me know so I can address it. I certainly have no expectation of reading only rave reviews in the article feedback, although admittedly "how to prune basil" is probably not a hot-button topic, LOL.

I hope nobody will mind if I post a link to this thread over in the writers' forum...

I don't think we have a choice which picture is added to our trade list....doesn't the system do it automatically? Just curious....

Thanks critter! I strictly didn't mention anything about getting permission in my last post because of that being such a legal/policy thing and I'm not sure there is much that can be done about that w/out hurting someones feelings.

I do stand by the other 2 points I last made.


LOL, pruning basil is not hot topic?

I have been watching this thread and must say I do not like the 'light' way Wallaby1 has been addressed by some DG members. I must say I fully agree with W1 and want to add the following:

Since Wallaby1 joined DG, she has been known as a very kind, gentle, helpful, cooperative, knowledgeable and sharing person. She has made MANY contributions to DG with pictures and information.

I have not been asked for my opinion, but I will give it anyway:

MANY DGardeners have learned/profited from Wallaby1's knowledge and participation at DG, but it seems only a few 'enjoyed' the article in question. In my humble opinion, W1's participation contributes far more to DG than one article. We should cherish such DG members and not lead them to the point they will ask themselves if it is still worth to remain among us.

What W1 is asking for is just fair.

I am aware that posting a picture on the web can/will be used without authorization by non-ethical people, but was hoping that would be restricted to non-DG members. I also think that if somebody is getting paid for an article and uses the pictures that belong to other people, they should not only ask BEFORE publishing such article/pictures but also share a percentage of the fee the writer of the article obtains.

I also want to make it clear that I do not object DG's rules, but I have an opinion about the issue and felt the need to express it.

Ursula

critter, I would be very interested to hear how you think this particular concern could have been resolved by contacting admin. or the author directly. Please give me some clues, as I happen to be clueless. As a writer I'm sure you can come up with something credible?

It does seem to me that those who are producing the articles happen to be a little more edgy about this, if you keep to what most people would deem to be acceptable there should be no problem, surely this is not so hard to do? Please, writers, do not feel affronted.

This is something which, to me, concerns all and needs to be brought to the attention of all.

A link as you mentioned to PlantFiles is something entirely different, as it is obviously just a link and credit is also obvious so permission is not expected.

I'm not lured by the honour of having a photo used, I am not a child and do know the difference. My photo really was not a very good one either, but it happened to be perhaps the only one of the type or only one suitable.

Proper credit for the photo, as well as a disclaimer as to the views not being those of the photographer, would suffice if we have no choice.

BUT, as tgif stated, I will also be slow to post photos here, perhaps not at all. And I happen to be getting a good DSLR bought for me by my son, it would be great to post my pics using this but I would hate to see them end up on a public calendar without my knowledge or payment.

I don't think there is a rule against posting any links here as long as it's not against the rules, which most of us know about.

Ursula, just read your post, ((((HUGS))))

I'm sorry if I sounded overly defensive or as if I was dismissing Wallaby's concerns. I hope she knows how much I value her presence here!

I didn't want to get into the payment issue, because there's no way for me to sound unbiased there, LOL. However, maybe it would help if I pointed out that only one photo (the thumbnail photo which appears at the top) is required for each article. We do not get paid for additional photos, either for taking them or for the time it takes to search through the database in search of just the right image to add a little extra to an article.

So far, I've only used my own photos, but I'm sure the time will come when I won't have the photo that I want, or when somebody else's photo will better illustrate my point.

I think there's been a good point made about photo credits being more visible, and I mentioned that over in the writers' forum when I posted a link to this thread.

I can't speak for everyone, since this isn't an issue of legal necessity... but I'll do my best to at least let somebody know ahead of time that their photo will appear in an article of mine. And I'll ask if I can, but if I need to get the article in, then I might not wait very long for a response. Recently, I wanted to use a great photo from a forum thread (not from PF) but decided I didn't have time to wait for permission, so I used a photo from my own garden instead. I thought it was better to make do with a less beautiful photo rather than waiting until October to have an article published on planting irises, LOL.

I've been closely watching this thread to see which direction it would go. There's no doubt that I should have advised the authors to add attribution for the photos, particularly since when they are resized down the copyright text is illegible.

I have informed all the writers that we should always provide attribution going forward.

Wallaby1: I have removed your photo from the article.

Dave

Ursula, what you've said is so true and justified!
I feel the same and am happy you have expressed so well!

That one should be proud of having his/her picture chosen from the many is of little value in my opinion.
Are ethical values not standing high above any vain pride ?

Regarding "it seems only a few 'enjoyed' the article in question" above ...

Lori, I really enjoyed your article. Without going into the "picture permission" thing or the "using chemicals to kill the little beasties" thing, you wrote a humorous gardening story and I apologize for not telling you so earlier. I believe I took it as it was meant and never imagined that it would/could lead to all this discussion.

Maybe some things will change because of it - but YOU keep on writing!

Thank you Dave, you have done the proper thing and that is all any human being really expects.

Ps, thanks to those who do appreciate my efforts!

Thank you, Dave. Your reply confirms that this was an issue that should be discussed publicly.

Well, thanks bonitin. I am glad I was not misunderstood because of my poor English.

Jill, I was not talking about you - I had not read your post when I was writing/posting mine.

Ursula

Thanks Dave!

Dave - are you saying that they (the writers) don't need to contact the photographer before the print date for some sort of OK to use the photo? Does that mean that those of us who willing submit photos on our favorite forums need to be on the look out for one of our pictures to show somewhere else without prior notice?

Whoopie wow - the photographer gets some credit!!! AFTER the fact. What if we posted a picture that we *thought* would be kept within a "sub forum" ONLY!?

Sorry - I'm bowing out of this discussion for now.

And I'll say "Amen and Amen".


whoops.....my post crossed with tgif.

it was meant to mean ....."and that's all folks".

I have no intent to be flip with anyone. Just appears that Dave has done the best he could and the subject has died. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. This is for fun. and I really need some fun today.

This message was edited Aug 28, 2007 4:42 PM

ROTFL! tgif, are you the hit and run type (not talking about cars)?((hugs))

I was wondering that myself (maybe not permission, although that would be sweet) but about being contacted ahead of time? Thank You!

Wallaby, I just read your post and the responses that followed. I don't think it was inappropriate to discuss this here, because there are broader concerns that needed addressing. But if you'd had a problem with my article, I'd have liked to know about it asap.

As for how contacting admin would've helped, I think Dave just answered that. I thought there would be some way of either removing your photo after the fact or of adding more visible credit for it, but I didn't know for sure how that would work.

I'm sorry my comment about having a photo chosen was taken poorly. I'm not a child either, but I get a thrill if somebody contacts me about using a photo outside of DG or if my photo appears in blooms.com... I'd even get a kick out of noticing one of my photos in the "fun random image" field.

Oh, and my comment about PF links was more about the iris article, in which both a PF photo and the link to the PF entry were provided for the irises being discussed. I do think it makes sense to provide a link to the actual database entry, just so people can easily go to it for more information (especially in an article that's more factual in nature).

TGIF, I thought I'd addressed that concern... Regardless of the "letter of the law" with the AUP, the articles won't include photos that are uploaded to forum threads without the permission of the photographer.

As I said, both as a photographer and as an author, it seems to me that PF and BF photos are "community property" within DG. Photos you post to "your favorite forums" are not fair game without your permission. :-)

tgif, you posed some questions, and also wrote:

Thank you crit for clearing up some of my concerns. You contribute a lot to this site, but then, so does wallaby1. It would be a shame to lose either one of you due to the lack of a simple dmail ahead of a print deadline.

Just for the record - I have stopped receiveing the Email letters because I can't open the articles. I refuse to change the settings on my computer because it will mess up, not only my computer, but also my husbands which is networked to mine. I know whereof I speak since I have tried that sort of thing before - as in - been there, done that, sent that t-shirt back!

I promise folks - that's it for me.

For the record, anyone want to use one of my forum photos? Within Dave's Garden, please help yourself. Let me know though so I can thank you.

My guess would be that most of the article writers who are using others' pictures would be picking them from places like Plant Files and Bug Files, not taking them from forum posts. I'm not part of the writers group, but I can imagine that it takes long enough to find pictures to illustrate your points going through easily searchable areas like PF and BF, I can't imagine anyone having the time to go through forum posts to find pictures!

Mostly, that's true... but I can imagine that there might be a photo I'd seen recently that I might use if I had enough lead time to Dmail back and forth to get permission. I mentioned that I had considered doing that for a photo to cap off an article I recently submitted, but I decided it was more important to get it into the queue asap since it was about planting, and fall is fast approaching!

I would tend to agree w/ that depending on the subject but I still have unanswered questions. :-)

hey guys....give it a rest. Have you forgotten the mission of Dg....if so, please read "Mission"......this is beginning to sound like Republicans and Democrats and I really think that is a shame.

So sorry if you feel you must leave the absolute greatest website there is. Go read some of your gardening sites and hopefully you will remember why you joined in the first place.

Dave, I will fully understand if you cut my post. I'm just so tired of all the falderal.(sp)

Excuse me..who are you? It is not your decision to say whether the discussion is closed. Its Daves.
If you don't like the thread then don't open it..

I'm not leaving here at all. You are really rude!!!

Sorry Dave, I can only take so much of such disgusting rudeness!!

I love this site as much as anyone but this person is completely out of line!!

She was referring to the person who keeps saying he is leaving. Not to you.

Okay/ scratch that part. Still think the post was rude though.

This has been an important subject that impacts alot of us.