I need a little encouragement!

I grew up gardening.. an established garden my oma (german grandma) spent just about all day everyday working in. She lived with us and the yard was her job. I spent alot of time with her from the time I was a baby till she passed away. I learned so much. She farmed in the old country,produced all her families food, gardening came second-nature to her. Even in the U.S. we got all our fruits and veggies from the garden, Oma and I would bring it in, my mom took over then and we helped her can/freeze preserve it all.Fast forward to my garden, no oma, hard clay, little time and and I feel like the world of bugs and disease are out to get me. So all you Old, uh scratch that, Experienced gardeners, how long does it take, how many years of futile hard work with not much to show for it before my garden will be "established"?

Depends. I can usually bring a plot into full production in two years Even if it would not sprout blackeyed peas to start with. First you rob Peter to pay Paul. which means bringing in lots of manure and plant material to amend the soil. If it is really bad, the first year, I will plant a green manure crop and turn it under. I will then plant vegetables or fruits That are best suited to the soil and climatic conditions. I am not organic, so have few problems controlling pests. I can also rapidly adjust the nutrient balance in the soil using commercial fertilizer..

Adding to FarmerDill - plant deep-rooted veggies the first couple of years to help "till" the soil. Daikon (Japanese radish) is recommended for that purpose. You can always put in zucchini the second year - it grows and grows and you will have so many zucchini that you will be leaving them on your neighbor's doorsteps, ringing the doorbell and running away before they can catch you and give them back!

Again depends on your climatic conditions. Zukes are much more difficult in the south. ditto for winter radishes, which have to be grown in the winter here. Always consider what grows best in your area, and what you like. There is no one size fits all solution.

Hi Lisaoliver,

I was able to bring my new garden on hard clay and rocks into decent production in just 1 year. But it takes a lot of hard work and time. I hauled and spread by hand many, many truckloads of compost and manure.

If you've got a smallish garden it shouldn't be so bad for you but it'll still be a lot of work. Just be sure to keep at it. Someone did all of that work to get your Oma's garden looking good originally.

Jeff

LisaOliver, I know how you feel. I'm just starting my garden too. I'd be happy with some clay.. I think I've got like 1/4 inch of topsoil on top of a granite bed.. I'm planning raised beds to I can plant stuff.. So, if it's really that bad, do raised beds.. That's what I'm planning to do..

LisaOliver, I've had a bad couple of years myself with my tomato plants, and am also getting pretty darn frustrated. Bugs, weather, rodents, sick plants, you name it--about the only problem I don't have is my dirt b/c I've got raised beds. But I know exactly how you feel, losin' in the footrace between you and the bad'uns. My solution that I'm gradually implementing this fall is to do some different veggies, to shake things up a little and get out of the cycle of doom.

I would bet even your Oma didn't start out feeling like gardening was "second nature", and I bet every gardener has good years when it's all easy, and bad years when they're relieved that there's a produce section at the grocery store!

Take heart, and, if/when you can, try to remember that this is supposed to be fun, too! Good luck!

I second Farmerdill on that green manure cover crop. My garden is behind our house and we had to take the ground down about 20 feet to get a flat spot to build the house on so I have NO top soil. I've been gardening for over 30 years and I think my first garden here was even worse than my beginner garden. I'm not doing fall gardens yet. As soon as my spring garden is spent, I pull everything out and have hubby start disking it. We disk about once a week to expose any insect eggs etc. that are hiding in the soil. This lets the sun and air dry them out so they won't be there next spring. Then around late August or early September we put in white clover. Have your soil tested to see if you need to add lime (pellitized will break down and be available to your plants sooner). Use a fertilizer that doesn't have any nitrogen as clover is a nitrogen-fixing plant. Let this grow until sometime in early January and then disk (or till) it in. This will really help begin to soften up that clay soil, which, BTW, I have too. And don't stop adding any type of compost you can get your hands on.

Thank-you all so much, this has raised my spirits. I was in a bad car wreck recently and was unable to check back. So, i'll keep at it and thank-you all again. Lisa

Good heavens. I hope all is (or will be soon) well with you. Best wishes to you!

I remember when I first started, I was not taught the value of compost and amendments. For those of us blessed with good soil in our early life, getting nasty stuff to work with is an eye opener!! But as so many here have attested to, YOU CAN get good results, it will take time and work. Best of luck with your recovery, enjoy a little research time so you can come back to gardening with new knowledge and renewed hope!

Sounds like here is where I should ask the same question I asked elsewhere but the conversation soon ended up on another topic. This weekend I intend to get many bags of horse manure. I'm wondering if I should till it in fresh (lots of weeds) or overwinter in clear plastic bags or black bags and spread it around in the spring, I'm obviously concerned about weeds that will take years to get rid of. Any of your ideas will be helpful.

I f you have an adequate space, compost it. The heat of composting will kill a significant amount of the weed seeds. http://www.compostguide.com/composting_methods_to_try_at_home.html
http://web.extension.uiuc.edu/homecompost/methods.html
http://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/methods.htm

Hope your a lot better now health wise, I have been gardening like you with my father as a child, he has passed away, but all the things he did with problem areas and plants, soon comes back to you and I find myself saying "thanks Dad" on many occasions, so you will get there. I had to start this garden I am in from scratch as it was once an old Victorian garden, but completely neglected for about 40 odd years, brush, stones every type of weed and brambles you could think of and it was a challenge for a long time. The way I went was just to do a small bit at a time so that I did not get too disheartened with failures, so if I were you, for the veg plot, I would go with small raised beds, because you work all day, these wont take up too much time to care for, you need to break up your clay soil under where you want your raised beds and throw in as much manure, grit etc to help with the drainage as you can, then build your beds, this will give you your confidence back, also encourage wildlife into your garden, as your grandmother would have told you, this is natures way of helping reduce all the insects that eat your plants and helps pollination, again do this gradually,
If you dont want to be completely organic, then by all means, use weed killers or pesticides, but just be careful, but remember, these cost money, sometimes nature has the best way to treat plants, like you can gather a large quantity of those nettles, tie them in a large bucket of water with a lid, and let them rot down, in a few weeks you have the best plant food you could want, you just take some liquid (black) from the container, add water till it looks like weak tea, and that's the strength you pour onto your plants, you do the same with a large pat of cow manure except you hang that in a sack to the side of the water container, treat the same as the nettles. as for veg, start off with a small amount of things you will eat, then as you get the time, make another raised bed for the following years harvest, salads can be grown in between rows of winter veg as the salad is in the ground for a much shorter time. go to the library for books so over your recovery time, and the winter months, you will get fixed in your head what you need to start your garden, but most importantly, dont give up, your grandmother will have waisted all those years of teaching if you do, this year my whole garden has been a total disaster due to really prolonged bad weather, but I will be out there for next year doing it all again, it keeps me sane, healthy and out of trouble as my daughter will say and I've been gardening for too many years to admit. good luck. you will get all the help and encouragement you need on this site, so happy gardening. WeeNel.

hi,youall, just a note on what my daddy did. we lived in north texas,and dont know what the soil was except it was brown,not red clay,like here in georgia.anyway,he used a lot of oat and wheat straw,bales of it ,in a garden about 25x30 foot .he worked that in from a wheel chair.then he spread 5 or 6 sacks of portland cement,worked that in.i asked him if when he watered it, wouldn't it get hard? he assured me it wouldn't,in fact it would be puffy.it WAS!! he grew all the average stuff ,but he took blue and red ribbons in several categories at the fair. he was the old school that if he had a tree on his place that was ornamental,out it came, in went peach or fig, or something that you could eat.if he could get alfalfa or peanut hay,he was in his glory.

Hi Digger, your Dad sounds just like mine as far as the garden went, nothing was wasted, and what was someones garbage was my Dads idea of heaven as he found a use for everything, if you cant eat it, dont plant it was his motto, but then they grew up in hard times and wars to boot, so they had no money for fancy killers or stuff to make the crops look nice, we've been brain washed to think all apples, carrots, lettuces etc, need to look the same shape the same size and the same colour, only to discover, we loose flavour, eat nasty sprays to make things store longer and now our next generation will never know what an apple tastes like straight from the tree, not unless their folks grow them, I can remember the horse drawn cart come around with the bread or meat, and my Dad would watch to see if the horse dropped the muck, I would be sent out with a bucket and spade to scoop this up and it went into the veg garden or compost heap, red faced, I would crawl past the waiting customers for what my Dad called the gardeners gold, but am still pleased that some folks still like to garden this way if it at all possible for them to do so. My Mum planted the flowers, BUT, only in between the rows of veg, her cutting garden she called it. Happy gardening. WeeNel.

I have thick clay with a lot of rock.. no fun! in a a drought- you can't even stab into it with a pitch fork.
It's been over 5 years of mulching, compositing, adding sawdust, moss, sand, manure[ many kinds after theya re done rotting] and lime, potash, bone meal etc...you'll get there but it is a lot of work but so worth it!
every year is better - but still unpredictable- our season is much shorter than yours.. there are so many facotrs. I test my soil each year- that helps too. goo dluck- don't give up.

I agree with what Dreamingflower said, unless you take over a plot already full of nutrients, rich and can hold onto some moisture, then it takes you a good few years to get the soil into the best condition for veg, but do remember, there are always some veg that will grow for you, because of poor soil, maybe you just have to pick them young and tender before they start to struggle in the poorer soil, you can also grow some veg in larger pots, barrels and other containers, they take some extra looking after, but you will get some veg from that, I watch some of those garden makeover programs on TV where they make a wonderful garden in say 2 days, and I think, pleeeeeeese dont let anyone come and do that to my garden, you cant make a garden in 2 days or have a veg plot ready in that time either, unless, as I said, you take over a very fertile plot to start with, you can plant a garden in 2 days, but that is the easy part, the prep to the soil is the hard slow bit, I would love to see those gardens over the next few years. so please dont give up, you really will get there and as most folks are telling you, it gets better each year, by doing it a bit at a time, you learn more about the crops, the soil and the conditions, some seasons are better than others, I have gardened for about 50 years from childhood, and had the worst flowers, veg and disappointments ever, we had really terrible weather conditions to cope with, but hey, I am already looking at the seed catalogues for next year, so you just try, try again. get over to your library for books on veg growing, bet that will bring everything flooding back to you about how your Grandmother did it, good luck. Weenel.

I also had German grandmothers who farmed and gardened. I love rose moss because of this. My mother had a victory garden in WW2. I still eat raw peas because of this. We all later became city folk who never gardened until .....

1. On a farm I tried Ruth Stout's method of hay on top - it helped a garden based on clay, but it took years. (When we first burned off brush, I got bricks.) My dad planted fruit and nut trees on my farm and apple trees on his lot.

2. On the next place I had low lying clay - which used to be a pond. I used railroad timbers and so called top soil to fill raised beds. It was better but I got strange weeds. My mother asked me why I was growing marijuana - which was wild hemp in Nebraska. Good grief. I used hay here too (300 bales one year - last time - about killed myself). I had fruit trees, grape vines, and lots of other things. My soil was not bad after a few years. If I did anything right here it was an accident.

3. The last place, I had to terrace a bad hill and had more top soil brought in. In 14 years I used lots of wood mulch which have degraded into 'soil'. The soil was not good but it did not have bad plants in it. Only in the last 2 years did I use 'cotton seed' compost. What a difference in many plants. I think I saved my new delphiniums. Last year I also added 'coco peat' to hold moisture and make the soil fluffier - wow. I am going to get more of this - better than peat moss and easier to use. I can no longer deal with anything as big as a peat moss bale and hate the stuff anyway - it will not absorb water well. I also started adding 'soil-moist' pellets. This helped too because I lose moisture fast on this hill. My plan is to keep adding compost/coco peat/water crystals. Some areas actually act and look like good soil now - which I had never seen before - not in over 40 years. I needed and still need lots of organic stuff. I will use anything I can find now (that I can carry). I also fertilize a lot - but having truly fluffy soil is starting to look like a possibility. I keep trying. I always heard one has to really improve the soil first but I never really understood what they meant. I thought a test kit was sufficient - it was not. My soil turned into concrete when there was not enough moisture. You would think I would learn before now. I think a lot of our garden problems are truly regional - based on the soil we inherit. Sorry to ramble. I have annuals, perennials, bulbs, roses, shrubs, and lots of vegetables - some vegetables in containers. I am trying to be organic in the containers. The tomato and pepper plants planted in the ground last 2 times were gigantic - much bigger than the ones in containers. Carol.

I have my big veggie garden as my VICTORY garden... I love it.. never had one before- too yong but i have read a lot about the history of them- so wonderful- I use the coi -fiber too- have been for years and I love it. what is COTTON SEED mulch? I have never heard of it. It must be a southern thing? I need anything to loosen up my soil. I am alwasy looking for free organic additives- love the raw sawdust- thankfully there is a mill nearby and they have been generous.
we are under a foot of snow- so it's trading and gettig ready to winter sow after the new year.. i am all ready- just need to do it... looking forward to it.
Merry Christmas everyone!!!!!!!!!!!

dreamingflowers,
How wayupnorth are you? I grew up in such areas as Greenbush, Badger, and 15 miles north of Bemidji. Spent every summer at The Lake of the Woods - step-dad owned 40 ac on Magnuson Island.

here in Centex we have rock. .....rock and MORE rock.

We can't plant anything in the ground with out a pick ax.

Luckily the plots I am using are well established plots. My parents gardened the small on and my uncle worked the large one by the chicken pens. I am seriously thinking about scraping the top layer out of the chicken pen and putting it on the garden.

Build a new pen for the chickens and take over where they are now - lots easier moving the bird than all the "soil" - LOL.

Sounds like raised beds aren't just an option, but your only option.

I'm w/ Bubba on this one. I once grew some tomatoes in an old chicken pen and they were great.

well I would If I could but the chicken pen is LOCKDOWN..haha. has to be because of the foxes and raccoons. I lost 6 chickens and 2 ducks last year. The pen is completely enclosed and I have no where else to put them at the moment.

I am doing ok for the moment.. We had a pretty bad weather here the other night an only one of the rutabaga plants took damage
.

Georgart53,

Good luck with the foxes and raccoons. I also wish you luck with your garden.

Oh thanks. I think it's all good now. The chickens don't have much ranging room right now. but I think I'm going to fence off part of the garden and throw the vegetable and plant refuse in there so I can use it for the garden after the chickens get done scratching in it and "recycling" it.

bubba- I am not quite that far- south East of McGregor.. LOVE LTW- have not been up there much but sure would love to go back. great ice fishing there. not sure whihc island it is but they are all so beautiful. DO you ever get back? we have saved for a boat, now just waiting for the right one- then we'll get to run up there. I bet gardening in TX is much better! rock would bite though...drove through last year on my way to az..loved texas.. very open- i love open... when we were kids, we had a garden on top of an old chicken coop pen and it was the BEST- the weeds were huge too if you didnt get them in control but that is where my passion grew, working in that garden... lots of good memories there...

Late posting- We moved here 3 yrs ago to hardpack clay/sand. Hubby turned it, made hills and side dressed w/ chicken poo. the amount of loose soil we were able to create was minimal, but it was focused all around the roots of each plant. He's from S. Korea so one of the first things that went in was Daikon. We are up to 10 mounded rows now which have produced progressively better each year. Manure and mulch (straw) the valleys then turn it under at the end of the season. We try to let the chickens work it in late fall for grubs and pests.

dreamingflowers - oops, forgot to answer the compost question earlier. The nursery where I was getting it went out of business. I had the name wrong. Finally found it at another place. It is cotton BURR compost. It has hulls in it. Seems to work well, after 2 years. It was $6/bag. Cheap enough because one need only top dress with it. Carol

Cotton burr compost consists mainly of the hard shell "burr" along with some leaf fragments and bits and pieces of stem that remain after the cotton fiber is removed from the boll. When it ripens, the cotton boll will split open along four or five segments or carpels and dry out, exposing the underlying cotton segments called locks. The dried carpels are known as the burr and it's the burr that holds the locks of cotton in place when fully dried and fluffed, ready for picking. "Burr" gets its name from the sharp spines that form on the tips of the carpels.

Nowadays, cotton is picked by machines, and the machines grab a lot of leaves, the burr and stem residue. Most of the residue is stripped in the field, and anything remaining is separated from the cotton fiber at the gin. The burr residue is shredded and sold as compost. I get mine at Calloways, "Back to Earth" brand (BTE).

When I was a boy back home in Louisiana in the 1950s, no picking machines were available on the small cotton farms. We picked it by hand, very carefully, for two reasons: (1) low residue cotton brought a better price at the gin, and (2) those spines were really sharp.

if you live close to a gin , some will give,or sell dirt cheap to you . farmers haul it out by the trailer load and spread it on thier fields . some pile it up and turn the cattle in to munch on it .we used to work it into the dirt in our garden . sally

Have you applied the horse manure yet?

I've got a new garden, and have been reading about straw bale gardening. I'm going to get a bale today for a fall harvest of lettuce(s). This would be a good route for you. After 2 seasons the bale breaks down and would be great soil amendment.

I've also just read about lasagna gardening. This would be great for you, just cover your weeds w/ layers of wet newspaper, mulch, grass clippings, the manure - and plant. I haven't done it but from what I've read it's really that easy.

I dug out a 8x20' plot to remove the weeds and rocks, I could have saved my self alot of back breaking work if I'd read about lasagna gardening sooner. Worst part is I'm in military housing and won't be here next season, but it's good practice.

I live in California and started a veg garden every thing looks good, loads of green leaves and blooms on squash, zuchini, tomatoes but no fruit or veg. Any suggestions ?

How long have you had the blooms? Do they fall off and get replaced without producing?

nettas , i was concerned about the blooms ,and no squash . someone posted to tell me the first blooms were male and would drop off .the female blooms would follow and produce . they did and when girls got started , they went crazy having fruit .zuchini works the same way ,i'm told . be patient , the female blooms were about three weeks behind. sally

Gardenza...the blooms on the cucumber just stay there its been about two weeks, the toms bother me most, the plants are about three to four feet tall the blooms dry and stay there.the squash have great big leaves i do get some three inch veg then they turn yellow and dont get bigger.

It sounds like you don't have bee pollenation. You may have to pollinate by hand by picking male flowers and rubbing pollen on female flowers.

No pollination sounds like the answer to the cukes and tomatos, but I didn't think the squash would produce at all without it? So if there are bees(or ants or whatever might work) for them, why not the rest?
Do squash need extra water when they are growing the fruit? Maybe that is the problem there?
Obviously I'm just learning, so I will look forward to the answers to this mystery.
It is strange that the garden looks so healthy otherwise.

Thanks so much for your input. I think I am impatient, but I havent seen a bee all summer.However I water every night just before the sun goes down. I'll try to hand pollinate. I have ants in my house ? may be I can convince them to go out side.