Wildlife Gardening, Bird and Butterfly Gardening

I haven't tried them all yet, I have a few more to go, but will let you know.

I'm guessing it used to be "Gardening for Butterflies and Birds" then... I probably didn't read beond "butterflies," then clicked on the forum and found posts on butterflies and hummingbirds (pretty much exclusively), so that's how I thought of the forum!

butterflies and hummers

Butterflies and Hummers...Hummers and Butterflies...one or the other

Gosh, I hope it used to have "hummers" in it -- I've been thinking that my mind had slipped a gear or two!

LOL...it did. Hummers, but no bird.

great day i thought i lost a whole forum. we need a forum for the hummers as so much of us talk about them coming.


it was "gardening for hummers and butterflies. "

I really did think i lost a forum and now i feel like i have now that the hummies are starting to arrive any day now.

glad i check the other boards. hehe

I know that hummers or hummingbirds was in the original forum title because that is the very reason I joined DG back in October! I was looking for nectar plant advice for hummers and since I also had a butterfly garden, I found the combination of the two PERFECT!!! Both creatures love nectar!

And .... I agree ..... most birds are considered predators of butterflies and caterpillars. So it's kind of strange to be discussing gardening for birds on the Butterfly forum. Ya know ..... plant a caterpillar host garden to attract butterflies ...... so that the birds will have something to EAT! LOL!

To me personally, it just doesn't seem to fit together. But that's just me. I can learn to live with it either way. I also agree the forum DOES already get a LOT of traffic. And it's nearly impossible to find old threads because there is so much activity on it! LOL! Plus old age doesn't help (in my case)! And I do start a lot of threads on the forum! ROTFLMBO!

Anyway ..... Terry ...... YOU do an excellent job! So I hope I am NOT offending you with my two cents worth. :-)

This message was edited Apr 2, 2007 11:38 PM

SO, that brings me back *again* to the point I've been trying to make all along...

I think it's a mistake to broaden the forum's focus to include all birds and butterflies.

If somebody is searching with the word "birds," it seems to me you would want to get them to a DG forum where gardening for birds is being discussed -- and that's historically been the "Wildlife Gardening" forum (formerly "Gardening for Wildlife").

It does seem that people are more likely to search for "hummingbirds" than for "hummers," so that change would make sense.

Please, could we consider

Gardening for Butterflies and Hummingbirds

and

Gardening for Birds and Wildlife

(with the "Wildlife" and "Bird Watching" forums remaining unchanged)

I think that would address the searching issues without changing the focus or content of those two forums.

Critterologist - I like your suggestions for the 2 separate forum names!

The forum's focus won't include the eight-hundred or so birds of North America, probably just a few dozen routine visitors and occasional surprises. And the best part of the change for me was that the forums don't begin with the letter 'G', like so many do.
I guess I still don't see how including other birds causes a problem. There are forums so broad as to cover Perrennials, Annuals, and Trees and Shrubs; Bird and Butterfly Gardening just doesn't sound terribly broad and over-reaching to me.

The forum that includes butterflies gets pretty seasonally busy with both butterfly and hummingbird threads, so I don't think it needs the extra traffic from including general bird discussion...

Also, Wildlife Gardening and Bird Watching have already been established as forums for birds in general... spreading the bird discussion to yet another forum will just make it harder to keep track of, IMO.

I think what the issue is for most of us Butterfly folks .... is that the forum name is contradicting what the Butterfly Gardening Forum's purpose is. To have a garden that offers up host and nectar plants for Butterflies. Preferably not right in the middle of a garden that is designed to attract Birds! In my area, birds and wasps are the two main predators of butterflies & cats. Hummers are one of the few birds that don't usually eat caterpillars or butterflies. They instead "share" the nectar plants with the butterflies. They co-exist peacefully. Does that make sense to why this is an issue for some of us regulars on the Butterfly Forum?

Right... "Butterfly and Hummingbird Gardening" are entirely compatable topics, as butterflies and hummers have a lot of similar likes and requirements... "Bird and Butterfly Gardening" are two topics that have some inherent conflicts.

Gardening for birds in the more general sense seems more compatable with the Wildlife Gardening forum (and it's already discussed there), so if we need to include "Birds" in a forum title, that seems to be the one to add it to.

I know we're talking in circles now... it would've helped me to know earlier that the previous forum title was specific to hummers like I thought... I think it's a pretty major change to switch from "hummers" to "birds." When Terry said the forum name had never included hummingbirds, I thought she meant it had always said "birds" not that it had previously said "hummers"... I was having a real moment of "We've always been at war with EastAsia" (for those who remember _Brave New World_).

Well, I gave it the college try, but I think that I'll be visiting Birds & Butterflies only when I have Hummingbird or Butterfly related comments and questions.

For general Gardening for "Birds" discussions, I guess I'll be visiting Bird Watching in the Home Talk section since they appear to be the most focused on the topic(?)...

By the way, I like that you changed the title from "hummers" (cringing) to "hummingbirds." I've never searched on "hummers" and am reasonably certain that birds would not be the first several hits that I'd receive if I did...

I agree, its a great forum that is so busy already. Keep it for nectar plant lovers.
Butterfly and Hummingbird Gardening.

Becky you brought up some great points.

wrightie - Thanks for being the "messenger" to alert many of us about the Forum Title change. We promise we won't shoot you! Just kidding with ya! (<----Figure of speech!!!) Seriously, if it hadn't been YOU, it would've been someone else. Thanks for being such a good sport concerning all of this! And you know we LIKE you and hope that you DO hang out on the forum with all of us! (I truly hope that you have not taken offense due to this issue, because it was not personally directed at YOU!) And ....... I still want to see photos of the garden additions to your yard this year! Do let me know where you post them!!!! :-) :-) Your yard looks amazing!!!!

Edited to say: I guess I posted during a glitch because only half of my post transferred to this thread. Had to go back and edit it! =;-O

This message was edited Apr 3, 2007 7:52 AM

I hear the Twilight Zone music playing ...... How come my post didn't complete the transfer even when I tried to edit it. Did I break some cardinal rule????? Eeeeekkkk!

Here's the entire post (I hope it transfers):

wrightie - Thanks for being the "messenger" to alert many of us about the Forum Title change. We promise we won't shoot you! Just kidding with ya! (

I saved several of the dialogs from the old forum...It was:

Gardening for Butterflies and Hummers It was super cool and I loved it that way!!

Still I think it was perfectly descriptive of what we do. "Bird" is not specific enough. Hummers are so special that they actually deserve their own forum, however to join them with the Butterfly Forum makes the most sense. Gardening for either or both BF&H takes a lot of cultivation and a much different school of thought.

General Wildlife or Birdwatching is done very differently~ Still a lot of work, but different. I do both, but I rather mainstream birds be separate from Butterflies. Hummers do not eat butterflies/caterpillars, Birds do.

More birds in the BF&H forum would be too much (overwhelming), for me also, (Paige). I love the Bird Watching Forum for posting and reading about birds in general. Not to mention how folks could get lost trying to post their bird stories in there which should go in the BW forum.

'Gardening for Butterflies and Hummers' incompasses all the smaller winged creatures which use flowers for nectar.,,,When you include all the different caterpillars...some of which morph into giant moths that 'look' like hummers...well it is a pretty full place.

Hummers are the only winged critter that would blend into that and still have an honorable forum spot to showcase our experiences with them.

Just my thoughts~
Deb

This message was edited Apr 3, 2007 7:50 AM

Oh! It did it again!!!

Now that is just WEIRD!!! What's going on Terry?????

This message was edited Apr 3, 2007 5:33 PM

Here's the rest of my post:

Figure of speech!!!) Seriously, if it hadn't been YOU, it would've been someone else. Thanks for being such a good sport concerning all of this! And you know we LIKE you and hope that you DO hang out on the forum with all of us! (I truly hope that you have not taken offense due to this issue, because it was not personally directed at YOU!) And ....... I still want to see photos of the garden additions to your yard this year! Do let me know where you post them!!!! :-) :-) Your yard looks amazing!!!!

Edited to say: I guess I posted during a glitch because only half of my post transferred to this thread. Had to go back and edit it! =;-O

Apparently I can't post the left and right arrows! Never knew that! Just learned something NEW today on DG!

I concur with Deb all the way!!!! :-)

beckygardener and debnes, it seems strange to me that you're concerned about having birds in your your garden because they might eat the caterpillars.... beckygardener, you started eight or nine threads in Birdwatching, and a lot of posts were about attracting birds to your garden.

Have you all taken down your feeders?

Terry as always you do a great job !!!!!!!

but i liked the forum the way it was.

It was very specific to those two species. i usually go with the flow on Dg but i think this is something that shouldnty of been messed with.


Hummingbirds arent like regular birds and have so many unique qualities that they derved their own forum and adding butterflies to it was a good move too because they both exisit together.

I appreciate what you're saying Mike, yet if the birds decide to eat some of my caterpillars they could get aweful sick. One: Many of them are poisonous...(not deadly, so much as making them very sick.) Two: There are hundreds of cats in the height of season, safety in numbers. Still a significant number survive.... They learn quickly to go easy on eating the cats.
Yes I still have feeders, but they are in another section...And I include lots of mealies and cherries which they would really rather have. Seedeaters aren't much of a problem. They get stuffed on the no-waste seed mix they prefer.

This year I am hosting well over a dozen species of butterflies with their larval host plants... (Thanks to the great support of DGers in the BF&H forum.) All the nectar plants total around 100, and many of those are also chosen to attract hummers right along with the butterflies.

I like what imzadi said:

The issue I have with the attitude of "let's wait and see if the BF & H forum gets overrun with general bird posts" is that by the time that happens, the separate forums we used to have (BF&H, Bird Watching, and Wildlife) have become hopelessly muddled, and nobody will know where to go anymore for general bird stuff.

I just had another notion (uh-oh, LOL) about the google/search issue... If it's so important to have the words "Birds" and "Butterflies" in the same forum title, how about "Butterfly and Humming Bird Gardening?" I know it's not grammatical, but then neither was "Hummies," and if it serves the purpose...?

There could even be a sticky thread at the top entitled "Links to other DG bird and wildlife forums" to ensure that somebody googling their way here didn't get discouraged when they found hummers and butterflies but not bluebirds being discussed on the forum.

Hummingbirds belong with butterflies.
Other birds belong with wildlife.
Please change it.
Thank you.

claypa - I have one feeding station for the birds currently. And it is not right next to my butterfly garden. The reason I did this was to try to keep the birds fat and sassy ....... and hopefully AWAY from the cats and butterflies. The birds wiped out a bunch of my Black Swallowtail cats last year and also ate some other cats, so I am experimenting to see...*if* the birds are fed plenty of seeds.... will they leave my caterpillars alone?

I do enjoy the birds, but the butterflies are still my first choice of visitors to my yard. I have no intention of gardening for birds other than the hummers. I don't want to encourage the birds to forage among my garden beds and find more cats to eat! I don't know if the feeding station for the birds will solve my dilemma. But it couldn't be worse than what happened to last year's crop of caterpillars.

I, personally, don't see the connection of gardening for butterflies and also birds in the same forum. It's sort of like a hunter putting up a bird feeder so he can have easy aim at the birds. Just doesn't seem to be a complimentary and beneficial forum for Butterflies (and especially the caterpillars). Just my humble opinion.

Critterologist - You've come up with some GREAT ideas! I hope Terry and other DG Admin will seriously consider what you are suggesting to benefit just about EVERYONE!

I also feel badly for anyone stumbling into that forum looking for gardening ideas to attract birds, because the forum is predominately Butterfly and Hummer lovers. I really hope that Wrightie doesn't feel like SHE wasn't wanted there. It was the topic that kind of made some feel uneasy not her personally! She is a delightful and funny person with some great vision in transforming her yard and inspiring others to do the same. :-)

Well, I'm glad to see that there have been so many posts since I last checked that agree with my thoughts exactly I'm not a whiny person and hate to be one but I don't consider voicing my opinion whining in this case, especially since I am a paying member.

Gardening with a "theme" in mind requires extra learning, research, a lot of personal experience and a lot of advice from others. There are countless numbers of butterfly species, host plants and nectar plants that will keep many of us busy for...too long! ;) My point being that attracting butterflies is not just a casual thing I do in my garden, it's what my garden is for.

I absolutely love "my" birds and would like to learn more about them but I can not keep up with bird questions and butterfly/hummer threads at the same time, thus I rarely get a chance to visit the Bird Watching forum. My brain can only hold so much at one time! LOL! (really)

Birds are an added bonus to my gardening but you can sure bet you'll see me running them off when they try to eat my caterpillars!

I too vote for changing the names (keeping...whatever) to what Critterologist suggested. And personally I felt like adding "birds" in front of butterflies made birds seem to be the main topic in the forum and that would not be good, for me.

I agree with Paige on the extensive reasearch, not to mention lots of $$$ we spend hosting butterflies and hummies... It's a very intense operation with a lot of work involved. We do this because we love butterflies and hummers, but we are here to assist others focussing on the exact same line of gardening, or we would just do it on our own. Then forum is for sharing the valuable information we have accumulated over the years.. Where can you find something so specific, so friendly, and so helpful, all the way around?? Only DG that's where!!

Newcommers could be a it intimidated at first..but if they are really serious and put themselves to it, they will catch up very quickly. Especially because all of the people here know a lot, and we never get snooty about it. Most of us are more than willing to assist with information in every respect to the focus. That includes, (but is not limited to), sending seeds and answering questions that can only be answered by experienced bf&h gardeners. People you know you can contact, and we will be here tomorrow and the next day..etc, to follow up.

Like I say, it is a whole different school of gardening, but the butterflies and hummingbirds belong together as they were. We have invested a lot into that forum, and been rewarded beyond measure.

How bout a big ole group hug for ((((wrighti)))). Becky is right, she adds a lot of beautiful ideas, and I love her wit!!

Deb

(((((((wrightie)))))))

I believe it should go back to Gardening for Butterflies and Hummers...

Wrightie - Do ya feel the love?!!! ;-) (((((BIG hugs for wrightie)))))

Yes, I agree. Wrighti is a peach! I feel sad for her that she just happened to bring up a sensitive topic. We love you Wrighti. W e just don"t care for the birds eating our Cats and B'Flies!


Maggie

Aaaww.... you KidZ... yur killin' me. I'm feelin' it. I'm feelin' it.

I will continue to post on the late Butterfly & Hummingbird (I refuse to call them *hummers*, I don't care whatcha say) when I'm focused on those critters.

*BUT*, my dilemma du jour is that there does not seem to be a clearly labeled forum for those bzillions of people who are interested in Gardening For Wild Birds... (Bird Watching in the Home Talk neighborhood simply does not make sense to my peabrain. Wildlife Gardening folk seem not so interested in birds, or am I wrong?) I think I'm going to throw in the towel, take Becky's advice, and start shooting them at the feeders...

Terry, I'm so sorry for you.

Wrightie - Wellllll ...... there you go! Eliminate the birds and come join us on the Butterfly and Hummingbird forum! ROTFLMBO!!!!!

Added to say .....

JUST JOKING about the birds!!!! ;-}

This message was edited Apr 3, 2007 9:29 PM

I just looked at the Wildlife Gardening forum... and there are lots and lots of threads about birds there.... not the Wildlife forum, but the Wildlife Gardening forum (under General Gardening on the Garden Talk page).

That's part of the reason I thought it would be useful to rename that forum to specifically include gardening for birds ("Bird and Wildlife Gardening"), since that topic is already there.

LOL y'all!!

Great idea critter!!

What I'm curious about is, how the change happened without asking the people who contribute to the forum..? Maybe issuing invitation to forum participants about changing it ....before it was changed would have been great.
There are so many forums to watch and enjoy here. In them you will find the most serious 'super' gardeners in each of those finite areas. And here we are...I pay to come, and it is serious altruistic work to me. Personally, a 'heads-up', or a 'what do you think?' is all the love/thanks I would expect. :-)

That's why the "For Gardeners By Gardeners" phylosophy works so well, isn't it?.

:-Deb

This message was edited Apr 3, 2007 10:46 PM