PART 2 BF Host Plant Seed Trade DISCUSSION

I have some verbena bonarienses, first year and won't be without it anymore lol Thanks for the offer. My hummers seemed to pay attention to this one more than the butterflies, the ones in the pots, I would pick up to water and the hummers would have a fit!

I was wondering, the silky gold butterfly weed, I read in the plant files that it is only hardy to zone 8, HD was selling as perennials here and I asked the lady about it and she said they come back for her, I only had 3 plants of it, has anyone else had it come back in z6? I sure hope mine come back, I have two plants by the house and oh, I have several in the field that never flowered until it was time for them to quit but maybe they will be back next year? Anybody know? Also I had some pods in front of the house and they got frozen but almost ready, would it be a sily question to ask if I could bring these in the house to dry? lol I really want some more of these plants, esp. if they are hardy in my zone.

Thanks for the answer and for the offer Becky! I don't think scarlet milkweed would survive the winters here, and although I love gardening, a slight lazy streak makes me tend to go for what will be perennial even when a plant has flowers as pretty as that one does.

If anybody has had luck with more limited planting for host plants I'd be very interested in hearing about it. I was hoping a few host plants scattered in with the rest of my garden would work, but it sounds like I may have to invest a lot more space to get good results. Luckily I have a spot in back I think will work.

Lori

Becky - LOL! It is milkWEED, right? Think I'm gonna plant them now and mulch them well. I bet even if they freeze they'll come back from the roots.

Hi, Lori-- Your point about the trees as butterfly host plants reminds me of a BF video "Attracting Butterflies to your Backyard" which talked about including (even dwarf or compact) fruit trees to your BF yarden, both for host plants and nectar plants. they said it was the "easy way" to develop a butterfly garden

Citrus trees, wild cherry, and hackberries are three trees that come to my mind for swallowtails and the tawny emperor. I know a few DG bf gardeners are looking to add willows, Paw Paw, hop trees, and poplars as they become available, too.

There are a range of shrubs that attract BFs for host plants, too, (according to the video). But I am not familiar with them. Will try to google around for that info.

Not exhaustive, but an easy to read list of host plants including several common trees:

http://www.monarchwatch.org/garden/plant.htm

Also, about the density of the milkweed plantings, etc., "Monarch Watch" has made a few recommendation for the Monarch Waystation Program that might give some insight. This is a (hard to read, sorry) link to their butterfly garden instructions Basically, about 20 or more MW plants, preferably of two or more different kinds, planted in a mass somewhat close together.

http://www.loudounwildlife.org/PDF_Files/Certify_A_Waystation.pdf

Lori, if you want to do an "EZ care" butterfly garden try the Butterfly Weed (A. tuberosa)-- Although it breaks dormancy late, it is perennial in our zone, many gardeners grow it because they just like it, (it behaves beautifully in the garden), and the BFs like it too. And you don't really need 20 plants for the monarchs (maybe 5).

http://www.cedarcreek.umn.edu/pjslides/album/pj28.htm It also comes in yellow.

Then also pick up a couple of the tropical milkweeds (silky red or yellow) at the garden center for a couple of dollars for early season bloom, too.

Those, and a butterfly bush, a little verbena bonarienses, and dill and fennel will make a nice BF garden in Zone 6 along with your usual summer flowers and vines, I think.

I am looking for a way to make this happen in a fairly easy way. I’ll have to take a look at moisture requirements since most of the soil in the yard is moist to wet. I’m avoiding butterfly bush due to concerns about invasivensess in wild areas around here, but I do have clethra and salvias which seem to be working as fairly early nectar sources. I’ll have to pay more attention to the situation next spring and correct it if things are starting later than they should.

I know Lindera benzoin (spicebush) not surprisingly is a host for spicebush swallowtails, and I’ve seen Viburnum and Cornus (dogwood) listed in host plant lists.

Thanks Tabasco for some very useful links and your opinion on the number of plants!

Lori

Lori-- I have read about the Buddleia problem and I would like to know more about it. (I can hardly get mine to grow here in Ohio!)

I looked up on the NABA site for info on New Jersey butterflies, but there wasn't much, so I looked at New York's list of recommended BF plants and saw some unusual notes on butterfly likes and dislikes.

http://www.naba.org/ftp/nyca.pdf

For instance they list verbenas, lantanas and sunflowers as "not recommended for nectar plants", among others. That surprises me since our butterflies here in zone 6 love them!

Very interesting.

BTW, everyone, this NABA link http://www.naba.org/pubs/bgh.html

provides some detailed favorite nectar and host plant information written by butterfly gardeners in specific areas of the country.

You can click on the state, province, or region and get specific comments on whether a certain plant (probably) will or will not work for butterflies common to your area.

I think it's interesting to read that some plants are favorites in certain areas and ignored in other regions.

tabasco - I find that VERY odd that they don't recommend Lantana as a nectar plant. THAT is the one plant in my yard that attracts EVERY butterfly! And the only other one is the Porterweed. I wonder why they say that. Is it because Lantana "could" become invasive?

I know that there are a lot of issue about non-native, invasive plants. I have not ever had a problem with anything that I have grown in my yard becoming invasive. (Knock on wood.) In fact, I rarely have plants pop-up in my yard that don't belong there (except what I consider useless weeds!). Of course, that might be because I keep close tabs on my gardens. If you don't, I could see it getting out of control. Birds don't eat any berries on any of my plants and neither do the squirrels.

One plant that HAS become VERY invasive in Florida is the Brazilian Pepper Tree. They are everywhere! They grow so darn fast. The vacant lots behind and to the west of my yard had none 5 years ago. Today they are literally COVERED with Pepper Trees and the seeds drop everywhere. My husband is allergic to the sap. They are awful!!!

Thanks Tabasco. That’s an interesting link. I’ve been trying to id the butterflies I see, so the list of what’s most common is really helpful.

I think a plant’s popularity may depend on what the other choices are around and the particular setting. I have wild geranium, but have never noticed a butterfly using it. It’s not right in front of where I spend most of my time, but I’d still expect to see some activity there if it was that popular.

Butterfly bush was included in this publication by the National Park Service
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/pubs/midatlantic/index.htm

On the Virginia Tech Dendrology page for Ohio, butterfly bush is marked as having escaped into wildlands within Ohio. I try to avoid plants in that category for my state.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/data_results_with_common.cfm

As Becky pointed out, birds and other animals can spread invasive plants when they eat the seeds. Another way invasives can spread without the results being seen in the original area is when seeds are spread by wind. I’m really into native plants and avoiding invasives, but I still have a fair number of invasives in my yard which will probably remain there as long as we’re in the house. The deal I’ve made with myself is to try to get the balance of what’s in the yard more on the side of what’s native, good for wildlife, or at least not invasive. Six years ago I never would have dreamt that this could be a very controversial topic, but I now know better. I’m not telling anybody what to do; I just think it’s good that people are at least aware about these things.

Becky,

Those Brazilian Pepper Trees sound terrible. I don't think they've made it this far north so far, but I know some other trouble makers have made it up here eventually.

Lori

Yes, the whole native-non-native discussion is interesting (and takes up many threads on the Indigenous Native Plants forums). It seems there is a plethora of opinion among public and private citizens and agencies on what plant is appropriate and which agency/naturalist/lobby group has the authoritive data to support opinions and generous financial resources to implement their views. It is difficult to keep up with so much info, much less evaluate it.

I try to keep up as much as possible, though, and I, too, have tried to select a good number of natives to add to our garden, particularly in back where we border a wild-life management area.

I do not know why the New York NABA site discounts lantana and verbena as BF plants, other than many of those modern hybrids are highly hybridized and have little nectar, although it is true that some count them among invasives, particularly in the south. As I keep saying (ad nauseum, I'm sure) v. bonarienses is a wonderful BF flower in our garden (but, again rates a spot on many invasives lists particularly down south.)

I am going to continue studying the Butterfly nectar plants that are most popular in our garden next spring. And host plants.

All the butterflies seem to be gone here, except that on our walk today we saw two pretty little orange ones flutter by.

Happy gardening. t.

Hello,
Was there a nectar thread started? I read a book about hummer birds and butterflies and they both seem to like just about all the same nectar plants there were a few one chose that the other didn’t! I did read where fruit trees were good but I don’t own this land so there for if I planted a fruit tree I could be somewhere else by the time it really got started! There is a couple that doesn’t take long to get up and get going. But this book also said fresh fruit placed on a small platform in the middle of the garden will also draw butterflies (EX. pieces of watermelon, apples, ect…) Also it stated to have a mud hole (small place butterflies can get some water and there are some nutrients they can get from this! Interesting!
Jesse

Yes interesting, but I made a "mud hole" including salt and fish emulsion and not one BF has used it.

Put raisins out for the mockingbirds who ignored it.

Something did eat the grapes I put out.

I did not have any takers on my 'special recipe' for the BFs last summer, but I later read that in our area you have to put it out in the springtime (not true for the south, though). Not many butterflies around Ohio go for the (icky) mixture, but there are a few (whose names slip my mind right now!) who like it in April, May and June.

I have seen the swallowtails puddling on our neighbor's wet gravel driveway in late summer. I suppose they are absorbing the minerals. I may try to make such a gravelly spot for them next year and add a little mushroom compost and salt.

There are several threads that have lots of recipes for "Butterfly Bait" if you do a search here or on Google.

Red Admirals like that mushy rotted fruit treat better than nectars.. A few other brushfoots like him prefer it too.

Worked a bit more on the Host bed today....so I thought some of you might be encouraged to see what I have so far. It just looks like there are gaps, however all the plants are small now compared to when will fill out next Spring, (of course). You know I will probably add more of this and that, and no telling what.:o)

Picture isn't great but gives a general idea of what's planted where..

1.Duranta~Sweet Memory
2.Salvia
3.Milkweed
4.Gazania
5.Texas Mist Flower & Frostweed
6.Dianthus
7.Black Hollyhock, and behind that is more Salvia and Porterweed
8.Snapdragons
9.Parsley
10.Dill (Seeds)
11.Fennel (Seeds)
12.Cosmos
13.Passionvine Blue Crown (skimpy now, but crawling with frits I noticed more today.)
14.Queen Anne's Lace (Seed)
15. Cassia Alata (Candletree will go there.. maybe one on the other side too)

There is more on the east side of the house and front where the Buddelija and more herbs are.

So far so good..I am happy with it.

Deb

Looks great Deb! Your butterflies will have plenty to lay their eggs on and to eat too.

I planted my pond today. Lots of wonderful BF stuff in there. Mostly nectaring plants though so I won't post any lists to confuse folks since I just looked up and this is the HOST thread. I'll get some photos when it gets moved to it's permanent spot.

Janet

Deb - You are so organized by labeling your photos! I'm impressed! The garden looks great! Just wait till Spring and Summer! You'll have to post a photo then, too, so we can see it in all it's glory!

Well, I'd say your butterflies will be in hog heaven next spring. You've created quite a butterfly buffet! How many plants do you have in your garden per square yard?! I like your numbering, too. Very clever!

Thanks Janet & Becky,
Sure it only takes a few host plants..though I have about 11 MW in there..(3 silky and 8 tropical). Ben loves Buckeyes, I hope I can get some on the snapdragons. I am sure to have BSTs on the herbs in the foreground., and always GFrits ... Seems there is plenty of nectars in there, and there will be more around the back yard too.

I can't wait to see the Duranta in the back blooming.

:o)Becky, I labeled everything for people of this thread mainly, to help anyone else starting a bed. When there is a visual people say to themselves, "I can do that". Kinda makes it seem less insurmountable to them maybe.

What a fine end to the day, lightning and rain to quicken all the roots with a charge. Boy do we need rain here, it's been teasing me all day with only sprinkles and now it sounds like we may get something more! YAAY!

(Edited to say thanks T, we were typing at the same time, lol
about 4 per sq yd I think.

Night yall I'm ready for the calgon bath and some good sleep.)




This message was edited Nov 5, 2006 7:46 PM

Nice job Deb!!

t, I went ahead and picked some of those wild aster seeds, I think they will be fine too. Mine is different than yours, little smaller than yours. The blue really stands out, yours does too.

Have some host seeds, the bugs weren’t very kind to me with the orange butterfly weed they only left me with enough to plant next year, got one pod! I have three plants! Only got one pod, just can’t believe it lol I never thought the aphids did that much damage on them but something got to them this year.

If anyone would need some I’ve got some:
Curly parsley
Bronze fennel
Pink swamp milkweed
dmail me if anybody wants any of these.

Have some pods to the silky yellow butterfly weed, milkweed, whatever lol It’s hanging and like tabasco, it will probably get all over the house if it ever ripens lol

I sure would like some seed to the Rue if anyone has some to spare, not much, just enough to get a few plants for my butterfly bush garden. Have some nectar plants too, but can’t mention them on this thread lol

HaHa! How can I sleep with all this thundering going on, what was I thinking?

The new thread is open now for Nectar plants, come over and discuss Nectars with us!
I posted it up this thread, but I guess I din't make enough noise, LOL

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/667130/
Nectar plants for BFs&Hummies Discussion Thread

There is a link to the Nectar Plant & Seed Trading here>
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/667302/

Deb

Here ya are.. driving down a lonely little road, and suddenly from the ditch you spot a lovely little Host Plant.. (Queen Anne's Lace).
What do you do?

Well you can guess what I did....

Deb

Host for Black Swallowtail Butterfly>

Queen Anne's Lace

For anyone who wants some, just look around by the roadsides. I have noticed it around here a long time, but just had an opportunity and couldn't resist.


Deb

Mine have bloomed ALL season! Funny thing tho, the latter blooms didn't have the red dot in the center either like this one. You have to be VERY careful and know for sure what you are looking for and at. This is clearly QAL but small plants can be hard to ID. I had a lot of the QAL this year and only found one cat on it. All the eggs were laid on dill or rue.

Just an fyi: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/592997/

Oh Paige good to know.
When this seed Josephine gave me seeds for comes up I will definatly have something to compare it to. For now the dot isn't there, the whole thing is coming together for me now. Though very pretty and lacey, might not be my cup of tea with the Queen.. Live and learn.


Thanks!

Deb

Oh no, they are definitely worth keeping! They are just beautiful and attract SO many little creatures. You just have to deadhead them and pull up babies or you'll be covered in them. That's not always a bad thing tho. lol

Yes they really are beautiful, thanks Paige.. I do feel better now. Speaking of roadside flowers, that Cowpen Daisy is host to a lovely Borderpatch BF. Maybe I need to snag me some of those sometime for some area of the back too. http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=2737324

Deb

I love Queen Ann's Lace. I grew up in Florida and I still remember it growing in the ditches on the way to my Grandma's.. Elaine

Has euphorbia, Snow on the Mountain, been discussed as a butterfly host plant? Isn't it a native plant? I am receiving some seeds. In my research of this plant in plantfiles, I read a comment from a Dger in Fl who has red/white/blue butterflies and cats on her/his plants. Just curious. If it has already been discussed, please excuse my oversight.
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/221/index.html

Deborah

Interesting about the Euphorbia. I googled and couldn't find references to hosting butterflies. A moth seems to use one euphorbia for oviposting, though.

Some butterflies do use different euphorbias for nectaring, including the rare Karner Blue.

I have several euphorbias in our garden and I will watch them more closely next summer. Never thought of them as butterfly plants before....

What a great thread! I've been trying to add both host and nectar plants to the garden, so it's nice to have so much information in one place here. Thanks to the folks who have posted some very informative links, also!

I have a couple of questions, hope I didn't just miss the info somewhere above...

What kind of hibiscus will host for the Hairstreak caterpillar? I've got Hibiscus moscheutos (just a couple), and I'm growing some little H. syriacus, but I saw quite a few little Common Hairstreaks this summer... Of course, another site I found mentioned beans, peas, mallows, and clover as Hairstreak hosts also -- and I have all of those, some in great abundance!

I was delighted to discover that I already have some of the "right" trees for hosts... wild cherry and sassafrass were already in the "fence row" of trees when we arrived (as were mulberries -- do they host anything other than silkworms LOL?). We've planted a couple of willows, several apple trees, a crepe myrtle, and a pear tree, and I'll be adding dogwood, redbud, viburnum, and paw paw in a few years as understory plantings. I think those are all the ones that I've found on host plant lists for butterflies we have around here.

We do see a good number of Eastern Tiger Swallowtails, and it seems to me I saw Wild Cherry on a host list for them, but now I can't find it... that stuck in my mind, because there are lots of those along the edge of the field behind us, and I thought that accounted for the ETS butterflies... but when I was looking just now, I only found tulip tree and willows mentioned. Either way, we've got them covered, LOL.

I'm trying to identify "gaps" to fill, although maybe I would be ahead to put in more host plants of just a few varieties rather than so many different varieties? I do want to put in some asters, and I'm already planning to sow toadflax (for buckeyes) around some of the fruit trees. I've got black swallowtail hosts pretty well covered with dill, fennel, parsley, and queen anne's lace, and I have A. incarnata for the monarchs (I did see a few cats on those plants... but do I also need A. tuberosa do you think?). I haven't seen cats for them, but I have plants that are said to host Painted Lady, Sulphur, Spicebush Swallowtail, Spring Azure, Silvery Checkerspot, and Io Moths as well as the Black & Tiger Swallowtails...

Hah, I think I need to go check out the swap thread now...

:-)

Oh my critter! How great is that? The Wild Cherry is a host for Red Spotted Purple for sure. http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/656889/ That is one you ddn't mention. Look around the base for little rolled up leaves with RSP's sleeping in them.

Of course Sassafras is a nice host tree for Spicebush Swallowtail> http://www.floridata.com/tracks/butterfly/spice_st.cfm. I have some seeds coming for the trees. Does yours smell like Cinnamon?
The Sass.Lindera which is a lil shrub is host for those (SBST) too.

I will look through all you questions a bit deeper when I get back from getting my DS from School etc..

You oughta be dancin a while though..

Will LYK in a lil bit!

YaaaY o/

Im back,
Critter your yarden must be a veritable wonderland...

Interesting way they roll up in a lil sleeping bag and make a C shape with the leaf, (look for those on the branches around the Cherry tree). RSP>
http://www.naturalsciences.org/funstuff/notebook/inverts/redspottedpurple_h.html

Tiger ST Hosts Quote from BFNA site

A really cute critter as a cat.

Here's a link for Spicebush ST. The cutest lil caterpillar of all ! Looks like a cartoon..makes ya rub your eyes. http://www.butterflygardeningandconservation.com/butterfly/st/spicebush.php

(You don't really need tuberosa, you already have Milkweed. If you come across it by chance get some, but the regular Milkweed you have is fine. Actually Tuberosa is called Butterfly weed.)

Is this your hairstreak? http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species?l=1553 It seems to be the most widespread of HS's, though there are many many kinds which look similar, a few are only found west of the rocky mountains and host succulent type plants like agavaeceae. Some of them very particular about host, and some have a more broadened appetite which include the Hibiscus Muscheutos, Mallow, Clover, and Bean Family. http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/gallery?f=16&_st=1 is the page with all the Hairstreaks & Silvery Blues.

The Mulberry hosts the cute lil Silkworm, (the faces remind me of luck dragons or laso apso dogs) nothing else significant that I know of hosting Mulberry besides the usual parade of common insects.. The webs are very noticable, surely you've seen them. :o)

I believe Buckeye also make Snapdragons host too, besides the toadflax, or at least thats what i read, lol

Here is a handy site if you don't have it already. Looking up the BFs you expect and click on them. Gives ya quite a bit of info in one lil place. http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/gallery

I got me a couple spicebushes coming in the mail, and White Clover seed.. and a bunch of other amazing stuff. Go through what you have and let us know what all you will be expecting in Spring. I can't wait to see it all.. I hope you take a lot of pictures!

o/

If anyone is expecting seeds from me, I am waiting on a couple shipments so I can toss in some of the new.

This message was edited Nov 9, 2006 6:12 PM

WOW, thank you for all that info & encouragement! I did get a fair number of butterflies this year, but I'm trying to pay more attention to things like host plants in order to encourage them further. :-)

I'll have to check for those Red Spotted Purple cat "hibernaculums," although I'm not sure I've seen this particular butterfly in my garden. I was so excited to discover that the trees in our "fence row" at the back of the yard were butterfly hosts... we'll be even more grateful for that row of trees when they start developing the land on the other side.... Bummer that the mulberries don't host some other wonderful swallowtail, but I think they might be responsible for our huge numbers of lightning bugs... I see them all over the fruit in early summer, and they just light up the trees like Christmas twinkle lights at night. :-)

I think the Grey or Common Hairstreak was mostly what I saw this summer... there were a few that looked "different" but I confess I didn't take the time to ID them... LOL, I was just pleased that I recognized them as Hairstreaks! Looks like it is the rose mallow or H. moscheutos that they like, although in my yard they were more likely numerous because of the abundance of clover! I do have a patch of Malva now, too, and somebody was nibbling on it, but I didn't see who.

Our local Southern States store sells white clover seed at a good price (farmers use it as a "green mulch" between rows, I think). I also got some red clover a couple years back from Territorial Seeds. We do not lack for clover in the back yard! We have to keep the front lawn as weed-free as possible so it looks "nice" (fortunately, the front yard is small and I turned a good bit of it into landscape beds)... but for the lawn area in back we don't mind clover mixed with the grass. I figure it's helping to enrich the poor clay stuff that the builder left us, and eventually we may kill it back and reseed some more grass. Not to worry, the "designated lawn" area out back is also relatively small... DH staked it out when we moved in, and then we started amending the soil beyond that area (tons of compost plowed in, something like 40 cubic yards so far) for fruit trees, veggie garden, and perennial beds. There's a plan slowly becoming reality, but it's definitely a "work in progress" LOL.

Deb, did you order actual spicebush plants, or seeds? K

I got bushes karen, I just spoke to the fella in Georgia.. He said they are 2 year old seedlings, pretty big ones. I was concerned about getting a femal and a male for pollination, and he said he would throw in a third plant at no charge just to increase my chances. YAY something did go right today! The place in online out of Georgia. It is called Nearly Native Nursery. The cost 4.00 each bush, plus shipping which was about 15.00.
Details here> http://www.nearlynativenursery.com/PlantsDetail.cfm?ID=351
To place an order with a CCard, I guess a person could just call them. I chose to print out the order, and mail in a check for 23.00 on Monday. Jim received the order today and will ship on Monday he said. I should receive the plants by Wed or Thurs next week.

Now my other orders, 1 is being shipped..(i have 1 pound of White Lindino Clover seed, and 1 pound of Erosion Mix which has several things and grasses in it. The Lupine bush I ordered with it couldn't be shipped,:o(, although it is going out today, which is good.

The last one is 4 wonderful Nectar plants which are on hold pending a Small Lot of Seed Permit from USDA, now that's been real fun, ...not. lol.

Maybe some of you would like to get Spicebush too, if you don't have it. I reccommend going through NNNursery, they seem like a reputable company, plus in season they stock a lot of host plants.. Here is their main page if any of you would like to check it out.. Remember things like Milkweed are not in stock now, but they will carry them after the first of the year. They have lots of Nectar plants in stock now though. (I will be keeping any major discussion on those in the Nectar Thread though..)

http://www.nearlynativenursery.com/NNNCatalogCommonName.cfm

o/

Great fun Critter, Sounds like you got it goin on..If I were one to be jealous I would be for your established Sassafras, and Cherry trees.

I am hoping I can get the seeds for Sassafras coming from Canada to take off. If I have extra seedlings I can share, or plant on my HS's new property. She has no trees at all, and I am helping her see all the choices before just planting the first thing she likes. lol.

There are also Sassafras Trees and pages of others like Wild Cherry available now, for very reasonable prices, at Nature Hills. Worth checking if anyone is interrested in buying HostTrees.

http://www.naturehills.com/new/product/plantfinder.aspx?Page=1&pfcat=10&pfzone=7&pfexp=Full_Sun&pfflower=all

Most of the trees are around 26.00. I really like browsing their pictures (3-4 of each tree), which show different season color on them.

o/

Gonna wait on the spicebush for now Deb. Hubby won't be at all understanding at yet another plant. (lol) Maybe in the spring.

Well, I just thought I would put it out there to save people some looking.

;o))