No More Co-ops??

I like it, I like it.

Some of this sounds very good, but what about the vendors who have like a
flat rate shipping of say 12.00.

I also think the days of 27 cent and 57 cent cannas and other things would be a thing of the past as they would be doing all the work and shipping. And there would be no more guarantee to the vender of say so many flats of 72 being bought or a minimum of so many bulbs or plants.

Doesn't sound like much benefit to the vender as they wouldn't even be guaranteed X number of orders. Sounds good for us but this must be worth
while for them.

Just my 2 cents.

Blessings,
Sandy ^8^

I think it's a real good idea. Some discount is better than none. I think that most vendors would jump at the chance to advertise on a site like this because of the viewership and just the curious ones who venture over and take a looksy. There might even be a few more participants because there would be a bit more safety without the third party involved. I haven't gotten to participate in any co-ops and was disappointed, I had been watching for one, but I like LuLu's idea and would definitely participate.

Sandy, I see no reason why a vendor could not set a minimum total for a co-op or a minimum per individual order. I don't think we can expect deep discounts unless there is a worthwhile quantity involved for the vendor. That's why the committee would judge a prospective co-op's merit by the interest it would likely generate. If they are unsure, they could always put some feelers out first.

Dave, Terry, please let us hear your thoughts on this plan. I have an excellent hosta vendor who might be willing to be a test project.

Pen

I was so hoping to get in on a few of these. Now to find out that they are no longer is disappointing.
Winnie

There are many, many reasons to be a subscriber to Dave's. And the co-op feature is one of my favorites!! I like Pennzer's ideas, too. I've really gotten some wonderful plants at excellent prices and have never gotten burned on a co-op. I REALLY hope we can get them back in a form that works for everyone.

Barbara

Might I suggest the approval process include a Credit Report on the person wanting to administer a Co-Op. Most financial transactions between people include a Credit Report and I don't think this should be any different, especially since there have been some bad experiences.

While it is true that sometimes things happen beyond a person's control which causes them to have a bad credit rating, most of the time it is a good indicator of how responsible the person is in their financial dealings.

Judy

The bad thing about running a cresit report, if someone is looking to take out a loan or anything else where their credit report will be run it would be a hit they might have to explain or it could possibly knock them into a higher interest rate. (How many tmes your report has been looked at in a given period of time can be a red flag to a lender.)


Just a thought...

Besides, there are some like myself who have been or would be good co-op organizers but have a lousy credit score. (Mine is from hospital stays and attendant medical bills... no insurance.)

Neither of the situations above should matter because they can be easily explained. Since DG isn't a regular user of credit bureau services, the inquiry will be over looked just like those for Real Estate companies. Darius all that would be necessary in a situation such as yours is for you to file a statement to be added to your credit report. I was a Credit Manager at a National Corp for 25 years.

Judy

Nah, not worth the effort, but Thanks. I don't need more credit, and I'm judgment proof since I own nothing.

In a vendor-direct co-op such as I suggested, there would be no need to do a credit report, because there would be no members handling money. The vendor would receive all the payments. I'm sure there would be many more volunteers to help with co-ops if they were just order takers and organizers--no money to handle and no plants to ship.

I think the best test of this model would be to get a committee together and talk to some vendors and see what can be offered.

Huh, Dave?

And Darius, you would be a most excellent nominee to serve on or head up such a committee.

All in favor?

Aye! ;-)

All great ideas but for me.... good discount prices are key or its just not worth the effort to participate. Also. the very reason I cant order from some places is the fact that they do require a minimum order amt or charge higher shipping.


We do usually have to pay for shipping twice but I just dont think you are going to get vendors who are willing to do the work our volunteers are doing...and ship to all those customers and still have a good discount price on plants.

They will need to charge for not only shipping but also that ugly "handling" charge. It would be great...but I just dont think it will happen.

I think the committe is a great idea with some experienced coop mentors doing a little investigating involving the vendor...host and the agreement. They could ensure that the vendor is legit with a good business rating and set a timeline for the coop to run. No more of pay me now and I'll ship to you in 3 months...also...host should be obligated to send out plants received in a certain time frame or ask for help to do so. Something like all plants must be shipped out in ........x number of weeks or money should be refunded.

NOPE, I am NOT doing any more co-ops! 2,000+ gladiolus bulbs did me in, LOL.

My credit is not good, but I am responsible. I got hurt at work in 1999 and
haven't been able to work. Then there dr. disagrees with mine and says I can work and mine says no. Anyway long story.

I don't feel it is worth it to host a co-op and have my credit looked at for that
reason. The savings on the plants is not worth someone looking into my
personal life.
Anyone can be a crook even with the most excellent credit. If I rob a bank or
another person how does that affect my credit?
I know this sounds harsh but the commitee's credit report should also be
looked at as they are the overseers.

Could be wrong, but still not worth it to me for anyone being able to see my credit, or possibly stealing my identity.

Sandy

ILJ, in my scenario, the committee would not be handling money. The vendor would be paid directly by the participant.

Darius, you wouldn't be *doing* a co-op. You would just be part of a committe that looks at all aspects of a vendor's proposed co-op and decide whether the project has merit. You would be doing what you do so awesomely well--research!

Charlotte, the committee would look at prices, min. order requirements, shipping and handling charges and all other aspects of a proposed co-op before allowing it to be offered. It would be a good deal for members, in their opinion, or they wouldn't approve it.

I have asked Ed (Bentleysgarden) and Gretaduck to look at this thread and offer their input. They are both subscribers and grower/vendors, and I thought they might have some comments from a vendor's perspective. We had an excellent hosta co-op with Greta last year--sponsored/managed by a third-party member. I don't know if we've done one with Ed, but maybe we should. Anyway, I thought it would be worthwhile to hear their ideas on the proposed vendor-direct model, and I hope we hear from them.

Pen

I think this is a great idea! Maybe some of the smaller, more specialized vendors would be interested since they would get plenty of publicity here on DG.

Here is my biggest reservation with this idea.

Co-ops were designed as a virtual group purchase: people decide what they want to order, and someone heads it up, selecting a vendor that sells the varieties the majority are seeking. The organizer then makes arrangements to tally the requests, take the money, place the order and distribute the bulk order among the participants.

When we allow vendors to basically offer items of their choosing (their excess stock in most cases), we're allowing them to market/promote their businesses in our forums, which is against our Acceptable Use Policy.

Good point, Terry.

Terry, thanks for your response.

It is my hope that the Co-op Committee can circumvent the issues about which you have reservations. If the vendor does not have plants/terms that are up to our standards, they don't get to use our forum. Period. Also, we could still use a member co-op manager to take the orders and do all the posting--so that the vendor wouldn't even necessarily have access to our forum and therefore would not have any more exposure than previous co-op vendors. Only diff really is that the vendor will be receiving the payments and doing the shipping--and that really has been the source of problems with previous co-ops.

I would really like DG to give us the green flag to do a test project--set up a provisional committee and approach a vendor to see what kind of deal we can make for our members. This would be a one-time-only thing until DG can assess the results. I would suggest that each plant forum form their own committee and, as you know, I'm wanting to do a hosta co-op, so we could start there.

BTW: I don't see this as allowing vendors to offer "terms of their own choosing." I see this as NEGOTIATING terms with prospective vendors, and that is quite a different matter. If we are allowing access to our members, albeit through a third-party member manager, we are dealing from a position of strength, and I'm betting we can cut some pretty good group purchase deals for our members.

Please, let's give it a try. --Pen

Penzer...I really appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to try and I feel the same way.

Whatever, you guys decide is fine with me...for some reason. I feel better about doing coops with larger nurseries...larger inventory...and maybe NOT so closely related to Daves.

Seems that our biggest problems have not been with dishonest vendors but with dishonest or poorly organized hosts.

I really like the committe idea, if you could find former successful coop hosts to "man" it. Would take some of the pressure off of Dave and Terry from a micro manage point and would ensure that the vendor would be further investigated and the host made totally aware of what they are in for.

And, since folks do come and go.....I think every coop beginning thread should contain a message from Dave saying something to the effect of : you are participating in this (or any) coop at your own risk...we can not control all the aspects of this coop even though we have taken drastic measures to ensure quality and honesty..do not order more than you can afford to lose if the unthinkable happens !.

Good idea to have a written caveat, Charlotte. Actually, if we were anticipating a very large co-op--thousands of dollars total--part of our negotiation could be that we require the vendor to post a performance bond. Security is an issue the committee would look at in their approval process.

Pen, you DO know that IF they approve a test run, YOU WILL BE in the middle of it???

Darius, will you be with me??? :)

Nope. Solo flight, LOL.

No solo co-ops any more, methinks. Committee co-ops.

OK, Darius, if you keep refusing to serve, I'm gonna quit nominating you--eventually.

Hi I am a new subscriber so I do not know the mistakes of coops past. However when I decided to subscribe, it was due to the coops. I was thinking about fall coming and wanting to buy a zillion bulbs and hoping to get them cheaper. That being said I have already gotton my money back from the exchanges and SASE I have participated in. This is a great group and I hope that coops can be instituted again. Sounds like the committee would be the way to go and then it can be negotited with the vendow for a particular list of items they have for sale. Just my 2 cents

Actually, I had stayed out of this thread, until Pennzer brought this into my coop thread. Having done a couple of coops, AND had coop problems, I have to say, I'm not impressed with this entire idea.

1. I have to agree with Terry. Group negotiations put the control in the hands of the supplier as to what is offered, and we will only get either excess stock or closeout.

2. The best pricing and selection comes from the larger wholesalers. They require minimum purchases, usually flats, and are NOT going to be willing to ship one or two of each item to individual people.

3. Maybe it comes from working with the government for years, but I have to say, I've never seen anything that worked well that was micromanaged by a committee.

I hope you guys can figure something out.I'll sure miss the co-ops.
Even if we have to stay with those who have had successful co-ops.Anything to save a dollar or two.Thanks,jody

"Group negotiations put the control in the hands of the supplier"

I don't understand your thinking here. The supplier would never be in control. The co-op he offers would be within our parameters or he would not be allowed to do a co-op.

No doubt there are many vendors who would not be able/willing to meet our requirements, but I think we can find plenty of them who would.

I'm sorry to hear you are negative on the concept of a committee. Your own co-op still in process is a perfect example of what can happen when only one person is managing a co-op. It must be a terrible duty for you to have to get all that shipping done when you are still recovering from serious injuries, and there are many folks in your co-op that were very distressed when the co-op came to an abrupt halt and you were incommunicado for so long--their worry and concern for you personally not being the least of it.

At least join us in saying there's gotta be a better way, and......

"Gotta have co-ops!"
Pen

I would like to add that I like to trade plants but I also joined Dave's to participate in the co-ops. Group purchasing has great potential. I hope that something can be worked out that will benefit everyone. I feel that working with wholesalers that have a good reputation would be the best. I would love to have a co-op with Iris City Gardens of TN. Others on the Iris forum has made the same comment.
Thanks for listening,
Teresa

I would hate to see Co-op's done away with. I have participated in 3 of them and will yes maybe one did go sour, but I am sure there has been others that have ran very smoothly. Sometimes things happen that can't be anticipated, everything isn't perfect, god I wish we did live in a perfect world, but we don't. We are adults and if we don't want to join into a co-op and buy something then we have that choice. Please Dave re-think about doing away with the co-ops. I really enjoy the chance to buy plants, seeds, fertilizer or what ever can be or has been offered in co-ops in the past. You run a very nice web site here and we all love it, and I know I would never blame you for a co-op that went bad. We know it wasn't your fault. I am sure others feel the same way.

PLEASE re-think your decisions.

Linda

This was one of the reasons I joined for the coops too. I'm a new member. Only two months. I know there are a lot of good traders out there and even some great freebies. I joined two coops. I understand there can be problems. I wasn't real impressed with either one. But I would join another one if they come back. Yvonne

I've participated in quite a few co-ops in the past several years, all quite satisfactorily (thanks again to all those hard-working co-op hosts!). I took a year off from Dave's and online forums in general, so missed the recent sturm und drang of countless co-ops gone bad. What's the reality here? How many did indeed go bad? And can you clarify "bad" for me - late, so late things were dead, incomplete, outright fraud? From what I can surmise, at least one (Nadi or Nadine?) was outright fraud - has this individual been prosecuted? That's one count of mail fraud for every check sent to this person, and larceny or grand larceny depending on how much money was taken, and I'm sure there's a bunch of other stuff in there as well. Anybody talk with the District Attorney in this individual's hometown? It's amazing at times what a quick phone call can accomplish.

I will be watching this thread with great interest. I've been participating in co-op purchases (or bulk buys, as they call them) for gemstones and precious metal beads and wire for a couple of years now, and it's been fascinating watching those processes evolve. Rules are in place to protect both participants and hosts. For example, one must have been a member for at least six months and have participated in several buys before one is allowed to "host". One must work with a "team" - so the person who handles the actual money (and pays the vendor) isn't the same person creating the spreadsheet or receiving and shipping the product. Other folks do what they call "piggyback" buys - if someone is ordering from a particular vendor who has a $ minimum or offers a nice price break once a certain dollar amount is reached, they'll put out a call for a certain number of participants or establish a participant cut-off when that dollar amount is reached. There's usually a buy fee (in the area of $3 for most buys to cover packing materials and labels & ink for using Clik'n'Ship) in addition to the payment for goods and shipping. Folks doing piggyback buys are known to the group - you don't just blow in, gather up a bunch of money and blow out. There are procedures and rules in place to keep disasters from occurring. There is also the understanding that there exists out in the universe the "buy curse" - inevitably, something will go wrong during a buy, be it illness, computer crash, family tragedy or other unexpected event, to muck up the tidy operation of the buy. By having backup hosts and rules already in place, these speed bumps are allowed for and folks find a way to work around them. I know plants are different because of the perishable nature of living things, but there have been enough successful co-ops (including tender little bananas and microscopic ginger starts) to make me believe that we CAN indeed do this - if not here at Dave's, then certainly off site. I'm hoping that those of you interested in continuing participating in and hosting co-ops are keeping a list of other interested folks.

Chris

Adding my plea for Dave to please reconsider this decision!

I love the co ops, but was only able to join a few in the short time I've been here. Seems to me it takes a special kind of person to be willing to do all of this work for DG members, but there are special people here, I've found.

(hanging hopefully onto the non-zero chance that they will be reinstated....)

Diana

I totally agree with Crestedchik. "He who hold the gold makes the rules" and is therefore responsible. Also 'one' person sould run the Coop...providing a written presentation of rules and what is being offered so personalities dont come into play...members wanting to "change horses in midstream".
Furthermore this type of bartering takes a level headed person with a business mind ... not someone who decides on a whim they want to "get over" or have some personal gain at the cost of others. It is of tantamont importance that members get what they "promise" to pay for.
I for one ... if handling one these Coops... would want my money up front...what gurantee you have that someone is not going to change their mind or a family member send you a copy of their death certificate!
Most of all a member must enjoy doing this type of thing ... if it become tasking or burdomsome...its going to be a problem!
I love saving money and I love being here at DG...I just want the person handling my money to be responsible.
Sylvia ... you can shut up now! :)

I like the idea that someone mentioned about a co-op host having to have been a member for a certain amount of time and also having to have participated in another co-op, before handling one of their own. I still also like the idea of the committee, maybe volunteers that could check into the background of the company, see if they are legit, what their rep is, and therefore having the responsibility of approving a co-op. Also, the disclaimer, stating that stuff happens, participate at your own risk!

Jen

Committees, credit checks, etc. - this takes the homegrown appeal out of it. There is NO WAY I would allow my (incidentally good) credit to be checked in order to save a few bucks on plants.

It was fun because someone had a particular interest in something, wanted to save money and share in a bulk purchase. I did 4 of them (JP MG's and daylilies), and yes, they're hard work, but it also creates new relationships and friends. Honestly, probably the best way of making it manageable is significantly limiting the number of participants, keeping the value and risk low and let it be buyer beware. I lost 6 bucks on my first Japanese MG co-op that I tried to join - the host disappeared when Dave started charging for the site, but all it served to do was give me an incentive to hold my OWN - and I ended up doing three over a the course of a year and a half - all went well. The ones that I've seen that fail were inevitably larger and more complicated, thus more factors like availability, substitutions, changing minds.

The ones I enjoyed the most - cannas, hostas (bleek created a whole new world for me) darius' glads (I enjoyed it more than she did - that's for sure). A new gardener, it gave me the chance to try things that I wouldn't have ventured into as readily.

Perhaps this site has just gotten too large/too many people to have the small-town appeal of a co-op between friends. Hopefully, something will sort itself out in time if a simple and low risk solution presents itself, but in the meantime, probably the best we can do is do a few spontaneous purchases like occurred with the markers in a recent forum. If someone sees this succeed, follows suit, maybe we can get back to the small, fun grassroots appeal that co-ops used to have.