No More Co-ops??

If I read the message on the co-op forum correctly, there will be no more co-ops on DG. If that is true I want to say I am very sorry to see them go. I have enjoyed participating in a number of co-ops since joining and have gotten some very nice plants from them. I have also been involved in a few that went bad but that didn't dampen my enthusiasm for them and I always looked forward to new ones.

I can understand why the decision was made to end them. It seems like so many of them have had problems in the last year....I am sure it has caused giant headaches for Dave, Terry et al. I still can't figure out why so many of them went sour after having successful co-ops for so long. Did DG just get too big?

Anyway, I want to say, "Goodbye, I will miss you." to the wonderful tradition of DG co-ops. It's been fun.

I just emailed Dave about this.

Co-ops were one of the things that I use to sell others on the value of a subscription to Daves.

Personally, I'm devastated about the decision. It afforded me the opportunity to purchase plants that I wouldn't be able to otherwise afford, like the hibiscus.

Even after getting bilked out of $63 in the hardy hibiscus co-op I'd still participate in another co-op (just not with Nadi).




This message was edited Jun 22, 2005 3:47 PM

Yep I thought co-ops saved me what a subscription cost so that's one of the things I used to justify it to others also.

Yes, I share your sentiments. I'm frankly pretty irritated that so many co-ops (especially this year) have gone so poorly. In my opinion, when someone commits to doing something they need to follow through with that commitment, or else communicate the delay to the forum.

Some people don't appear to be willing to do that, and I have no way of knowing if the co-op applicant is actually going to follow through to the end or not. It's just a huge hassle that really isn't worth it to us.

Dave

It wasn't an easy decision - but it seemed every time we turned around we were putting more restrictions in place, yet the number of co-ops finishing with flying colors continued to decline.

As some of you may recall, first we created the co-op primer to address the ins and outs of co-ops and give everyone some solid, written guidelines to follow.

Then we restricted the co-op forum so that only admins could start a thread announcing a co-op. Then we put a very detailed co-op application in place, and required every organizer to complete it; we'd review it before saying yea or nay to a request.

The latest (last) change was to put very specific language in the AUP to try to stop "end runs" around the co-op forum.

There just wasn't much else we could do, and these increasingly strict measures were failing to achieve the desired effect (which was to have more co-ops end successfully for all concerned.)

It certainly is sad. It seems that (to misquote a an old nursery rhyme) "when they were good, they were very, very good, and when they were bad they were horrid". :^[

Coordinating them could be rough much less having to get stuck in the middle of those with problems, and I've held my breath a few times at the thought of this happening.

Well, I gotta thank you both Dave and Terry, and everyone else involved with co-ops. I appreciate the ones I was able to order from.

Co-ops were one of the main reasons I joined Daves . Even though I don't get around Dave's as much as I used to, I have been shocked at all the problems with Co-ops, so I do understand. What a shame that a few bad apples had to soil it for the rest of us.

It is a shame, I did one coop a couple of years ago and had los of fun doing it. yes, at times i felt frazzled, but it was worth it cause we goot the neatest clematis, and I think everyone was pleased. I alo participated in several coops that were very good and seemed to run smoothly.
it is a pity that this program has gone sour.

:(

I know many who have initially joined DG because of the coops.

I have been in almost all of the coops for the last 3.75 years, and I don't feel like I've ever been burned. I've always gotten a package, but sometimes not in the timeframe that was originally posted. But, things happen.

To the best of my memory, I've gotten everything I've ever ordered through a coop. I'm not unhappy with the coops. I am, however, unhappy that they are not allowed anymore.

I'm sick.....co-ops were one of the best things here. Any chance you'll reconsider???

it was in the coming. we all saw the bad of the co ops to know this.


we also saw the GOOD they brought

but if you have been in some of the bad ones. 3 on my part then you lose interest really quick. i am in one now i dont know whats going on at all.

thats part of the problem no one is posting weekly reports no one is posting the nessasary info.

i know Dave and Terry even email these people with no results and thats fustrating to them. they are doing their best with co ops but it does get overwhelming to them too.

i am sorry they are going as a few i do participate inby certain people i have never had no problems with but you all got to look at all sides.

Dave and Terry and staff make this place wonderful for everyone and add new stuff everyday. okay so co ops are out its an opening for something new to come.

please everyne consider the people behind the sceens and what they go through before you start complaining about them taking the co ops away. they were there with everyone who went through the bad ones and felt the pain and fustrations too.


maybe someday they may slowly bring them back thats their desiscion and if they dont they dont.


if you are only here for the co ops now maybe you will find something else to be here for. this site is a vast world of wonderful people plants friends and knowledge.




all who run this site thanks for a great site.

Thank you for all your feedback. We know that co-ops are important to a lot of folks and we did not lightly come to this decision.

Now as for the future, there is a non-zero chance that we will reinstate them, but they certainly will work differently than they have through the present. If anyone develops any elaborate plans to successfully bring back co-ops, please do share.

Dave

I liked the way langbr organized her co-ops. She had the nursery ship direct to all of the participants. I know some nurseries are not willing to do that.

One of things that might have helped in Nadi's 'co-op' would have been to have known the name of the company and contact person she was supposedly dealing with and contact info (address, email &/or phone number).

Another part would have been to have had a disinterested 3rd party hold the money. Or have a central bank account set up where all monies from co-ops would be deposited and have someone from Dave's make all payments. (With my hibiscus co-op that was 3 payments.) Any leftovers could go into the'Angel Fund' instead of being refunded.

Gee, Dave, I guess you are just going to have to go into the mail order nursery business so we can keep getting cheap plants.

Just kidding........(she says as she runs for cover)

What about requiring coordinators from any one location to pair up so there would be 2 coordinators for each co-op. Not just virtually but physically. That would leave many potential and capable coordinators out but still allow for an occasional co-op. I haven't thought this completely through so would have to think about details and possible complications, but it wouldn't put the burden on just one person and 2 people would be able to back each other up and keep each other honest so to speak.

This is unfortunate, but fully understandable since D&T, etc. don't need to be in the business of moderating these transactions - alternative now is just to have private co-ops and distributions, of which I've seen a couple, but it seems so exclusionary because you have to already know someone to get in on the deal.

Clearly there can be no soliciting through this site, but only through outside interactions with whom people already have contacts. Pity - I've done 4 co-ops, all went well - and I've been looking at getting more seeds from Japan eventually - have a Japanese co-worker who agreed to find stuff. Now have to rethink this. :-((

Just a thought - perhaps print out a list of co-ops in the past 2-3 years that have all been successful. Kind of gives you a baseline to work from. Compare those names with the 'bust' co-ops and determine the differences. Long time Subscribers who have contributed to PF, etc?

Then perhaps a 'filter committee'; Suppose a person asks to do a co-op. The co-op successful old-timers pose questions. Keeps folks on their toes when they know that not just the Admins are really watching and also lets them know what their responsibilities and duties really are.

I was lucky the only co-op I ever did; I was so new. It was before the primer and knew almost nothing about co-ops.

Maybe it's all about really knowing who we are dealing with.

Dave's Garden doesn't exist because of the Coops, the coops existed because of Dave's Garden.

It's a sad thing that the coops had to be discontinued, but 99% of the reasons to be a member of DG are still in place.

I think it was not only a wise decision, Dave & Terry, but the only decision you could make, although I will miss the co-ops even though I only participated in a few, and only hosted one.

If two people from the same area join about the same time, then want to do a co op... then it would be obvious wouldn't it? I would't think that two older members would do something like that, but, maybe I"m naive.

It seems like that the biggest problems have come when newer people do co ops? Save the one lady in Fla, with the plant markers, unless one went south that I'm not realizing.



Like everyone else, I've gotten many plants I could not have afforded were it not for the co ops, and I hate that a few people have ruined it for everyone, it was one of the features that made me upgrade from the 5.00 membership to the 15.00 membership when I first joined...

What about allowing those who have run a successful co op in the past or helped with one? Yes, it could be very limiting, but, if someone was really interested in doing one, then they could go and help when one is close to them, making someone else eligible to do them.


As someone else suggested, a co op committee, or a group of past organizers have proven themselves trustworthy to do co ops, that group would be responsible for all things co op... only those within the committee could host, and the members of the group would have to agree that it was an OK co op to do? If it is a company no one has heard of, then, members of that group could check out the company before giving the go ahead? In order to get into that group later, one would have to be involved with a co op being hosted by a member..... meaning helping take orders, helping pack and sort orders, etc.... I don't think a crook would hang around that long in order to bilk members would they? Wouldn't it be more trouble than it would be worth to an individual?

That would leave the headache to the group, away from you and Terry, along with warnings and disclaimers that you guys don't get involved.

A limit of 20-25 participants per co op rather than to have them completely gone?

The only other suggestion would be to tell those participating not to buy any more than they can afford to lose, similar to a trade. No, not the right approach, but, if dollar amounts ordered are smaller, and there are less people participating, then a crook wouldn't be lured by the possibility of bilking thousands of dollars.

Questions I have: What if a place in an area is having a sale. Will you permit a member to announce that sale, take orders (Via email) from members and purchase for them? JCF Did that last year with dogwood trees, and everyone was very pleased with what they got.

I will use me for an example....and a member and I did this... and worked out great for both of us. Say I want to order plant markers/labels, a place in Michigan sells them by the 1000, but I don't need that many labels, will you allow me to ask if 9 people want to go in on the order with me, each taking 100? Or will that post be unacceptable? Same thing with for example Bloomingbulb, they require you to order 5 of something... would you allow someone to post and ask others to split the order with them. Yes, along the same lines as a co op, but not a co op, the original question would be on the board, then everything else would be done privately would be my guess.


To me, there has to be some middle ground somewhere, that we can continue to have a few co ops, and everyone be happy.... maybe not, but I'd like to think there is.

How about using a credit card

The co-op host has to put up good faith money...to Dave or trish,charge the card,when co-op is completed refund the charges
a small amount can be added to the price we all pay to cover the interest charge
Kinda like a deposit.........
I know it would leave some out form ever hosting one
But no one would be ripped off

This is devastating news...I do understand that Dave and Terry cant be expected to micromanage everything but like Melissa....I have gotten plants that I would otherwise have been unable to afford.

Theres gotta be a good way to work this out. I like the thoughts of the committee. You cant make it 100% safe but by having other folks keeping an eye on things and keeping the coops small...that should help.

lets all put on our thinking caps..............

I have one going right now with help of sundry in LA. She helps me with the figures and e-mails to participates. I could not do it without her.

I have really enjoyed talking to the owners and was hoping to do it again in the future. Not too soon I haven't packed the boxes yet :o). Plant Safari is just as excited about this as us.

I think I have talked Robert into joining DG when he has time.

But I also understand. I was looking forward to participating in some more as money allowed.

I hope their is a way to figure this out, But if not. I still Love DG.

Blessings,

Sandy ^8^

sorry to see the coops go. Should you change let me know and I will resubscribe. This is what brought me to the site to start with. I have had great success and no problems with the ones I have been in. Dave is not responsible for the coop and it is up to the indiviual to decide if they want to take a chance in it. that is what everything is a chance. I have never had a bad ebay experience but have heard stories of people getting dead plants - no plants- etc. Good Luck

Well, as a newcomer, I'm sorry I missed the co-ops. What a great way to get variety if you love a certain type of plant. But, with the size of this site, and the number of users, the logistics of getting out that many perishable packages is nuts. I'd never do it, not for more than 20 people, max. And I would be sure to take a day out of work to focus on packing/shipping. I'm too darned scattered to have that on my plate after work. People are people. No matter how thoroughly you screen us Dave, plenty of neuroses, ticks, twitches, and general irresponsibility can be hidden by all parties online.

But, I wander away from my point:
Over in herbs, there was interest in a mint co-op. The grower wasn't into it, or perhaps the DG user wasn't quite up for it. Either way, doesn't matter. A coupon code for the site was offered instead. We got a discount, they got a whole mess of new business. Most people impulse purchased many things they wouldn't have normally, because of the discount. If we are dealing with medium to large growers, that can handle the kind of orders this group would place (I caught a thread about a grower scrambling to start lots more of the desired plant to fill the order that was placed, do we want rushed plants??) I have a feeling many of them would offer something similar. If they are online, they've heard of DG. We have the numbers to back it up.
"Hi, Mr Grower, we have XXXX users, and our bulk purchases have been around $XXX at a time. We're calling to find out if you would like to offer our users and incentive to order A,B,C, and D from you in lieu of "
Nicely reminding the grower that we might just get a discount elsewhere always helps.

Perhaps we've gotten too big for traditional co-ops. I've seen it happen before, suddenly they become a "farmer's market" instead of a co-op. How can DG do that successfully is the big question. Perhaps regional shipping to groups of DG'ers? But that opens the door for even more human error, while also elimnating some burden on the initial contact.

I know! We need one, full time professional co-op runner! We'll set up a non-profit organization for the beautification of America, and offer bi-weekly co-ops of various goodies! Now there's a spot I could volunteer for! LOL

Thanks DG, for everything. The floral complexity of my yard had mulitiplied exponentially since my subscription. I'll keep subscribing, that's for sure... I'm almost looking forward to weather to start cataloging, and contributing more.

-=Lu

Now that's an interesting idea, coupons.

Good lord that message was way too long!

Long, yes... but full of good suggestions!

lulu I like your ideas a lot, but there is something so fun about knowing who else bought something that you bought, same time, same grower, etc. and then getting to discuss success/failure. I call it the commraderie factor. Of course, with so much bellyaching (justified or not) that "commraderie" might have vanished into thin air.

Well, many of the purchasers were listing what they got, and how they were doing....

What a great idea, Lu!

C'mon, DG'ers, there's gotta be a way. We need those co-ops!

Lulu, I, too, saw the mint coupon thing on the herb forum and thought that was a great way to achieve a group discount and also get the DG volunteer out of the middle. I mentioned this to Terry, and I also suggested we consider allowing direct vendor co-ops. She suggested I put forth my ideas here.

I've often thought that it would be interesting if vendors could approach us with their desire to offer a co-op. I understand and appreciate all the reasons why this has not been allowed, but perhaps with some controls in place Dave might consider some version of this.

Someone mentioned having a co-op committee, and I think that would be a good group to screen aspiring vendors. The committee could look into the growers' business history and DG feedback and could consider the selection and prices being offered to determine whether a given co-op would have general appeal. Once the green light is given, perhaps a volunteer member would list the varieties and prices and take the orders during the time window allowed and then present the vendor with a final order list. The vendor would then collect the payments and do the shipping. Or perhaps he could offer a coupon code and the orders could be entered directly to his online site.

I can see lots of positives from this arrangement and few negatives as compared with the old way of doing it:

We would be looking directly to a vendor with a good track record to fulfill our orders.

The orders would be shipped directly to us from the vendor, and there would be less turnover time--fresher plants.

No DG member ever again will have the heinous duty of sorting through all the plants, tracking payments, chasing participants and handling all those individual shipments. The vendor is experienced and equipped to do this--not us. And, after all, we pay for shipping anyway--why not get it done professionally?

Dave and staff should no longer feel they are in the middle. As members we will form our committee, and the committee will screen the vendors.

We will no longer have to wait for a willing volunteer to take on the huge and varied duties the old co-ops entailed. When a willing and attractive vendor is found, we can start a co-op.

The committee can actively approach vendors who already have a good history with DG buyers, and the committee can screen vendors who approach DG wanting to offer some discounting without the vendor being able to post to the forum until a co-op is approved.

With this plan I think we would see more frequent co-ops and more opportunities for more members to participate.

All co-ops could be run through Dave and staff for final approval before anything hits the forums.

The only negative I can think of is that perhaps the plants would be less deeply discounted since the grower/vendor will be doing more of the work. But I also think this plan would open it up to more vendors, and more competition could perhaps yield some interesting prospects for us.

Please add your feedback and ideas to this. I really want us to be able to continue with some form of group buying that will benefit all members while providing as much protection as possible.

Pen

I like it, I like it...

I think an excellent idea is forming here, a committee...directly with vendors..etc. Another thought, this could lead to 20-30 positive or negative feedbacks in Garden Watchdog for a vendor. Of course, they could see that as an incentive or it could scare the heck out of them!

Rachel

I think it sounds like a great idea and I'd be thrilled to be able to continue to participate in the Co-Ops!