Feel a need for a new forum- North American Exotic Invasives

Y'all don't know from pettiness. I don't see anything offensive in this thread, albeit there might be a mite snappishness over misunderstandings and assumptions. Nothing intolerable, nothing deliberately hurtful, and immediate apologies offered and accepted when offense is pointed out. A better handling of disagreement would be hard to find on the internet.

I'd have the whole bunch of you over for tea any day.

And I would come.

Well said RockCity. Thank you for saying what I am not quite eloquent enough to say. I completely agree.

How about Saturday at noon? I'll bring a couple varieties of Green Tea. :)

what state is your Rock City in? Imay have to leave tomorrow.

Ulrich....an unwanted plant and an invasive plant are not the same thing. Very good job of emphasizing how this subject seems to get shut down in every forum it come up in. Thank you.

I like the idea of a simple Exotic Invasives forum as well. Nothing specific to any region. But something where we could all share ideas, share techniques, share and discuss new research, the database in progress, etc [and no one would be forced to participate ;-0]. Unless there are modifications to the PDB I'm still of the opinion that it won't work as well. Maybe we can come up with some ideas to present to you.

Some have commented that there are only so many ways to get rid of invasives or that the discussion would fizzle out. If it does then time to yank it. It's a learning experience, yes? But, if it were that simple to get rid of invasives or there are only so may ways to deal with them then I'd be out of a job (and very happy about it, lol)!

"A better handling of disagreement would be hard to find on the internet." Too True!! Sorry Terry, but quite frankly I'm a little more upset of one person's "END OF DISCUSSION" order to us than anything else I've read here....

Oh, btw, I'm leaving for RockCity in the morning. Who can I pick up along the way? I'll bring the coffee, 1/2 & 1/2 and honey (Stud Muffin!!!! Hahahaaaa.....LMAO cuz I thought PVille was a "he" till just recently).

Have a good evening, folks....

Your right Pville, not the same thing. Native and non-native plants can be invasive. A forum would help to determine if plants are invasive. Many people plant non-native plants and are unaware of their seeding habits until it is too late. The forest where I grew up is being destroyed by Oriental Bittersweet, Multiflora Rose, Japanese Barberry and the native invasive Fox Grape. What would it hurt to have a place to discuss problematic plants and control methods?

Pville, not to be argumentative, but invasive plants are not normally wanted by anyone.
My hat is off to hanna1 and MistyM, they got spunk.

Ulrich....because we get kicked around so much from forum to forum I can't recall off the top of my head which thread this was in but there is a very interesting and rather entensive list of invasive plants from Trade lists indicating want and have to trade for invasive species. I will see if I can locate it for you.

Point well taken, but surprised to hear that.

Here it is: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465242/

Since that thread is rather lengthy (216 posts), I will save you the trouble of hunting for it and past the specific post I was referring to here:



caron
Woodland Park, CO
Zone 4b

Nov 11, 2004
10:08 AM
Hemlady
Both are invasive. From mildly to horribly depending on the location. They are banned in some areas with more info coming in from gardeners/weed managers/states/counties of invasions in new places that are hard to eradicate.

I'm gonna take a chance here and thow out something. I do agree with Wandasflowers that many gardeners are seeking rare cultivars that are hard to find or just something different to grow-hence trading is a great way to do this. I have no specific issue with sharing or trading here or anywhere else and do not want to see this practice end....

But here's something to think about, and I am NOT faulting anyone, just making another observation.
Did a search here for trade items and this is what I found:

Kudzu - 1 (wanted)
Arundo donax-1 (wanted)
Tree of Heaven-1
Dames Rocket-10
water hyacinth-8
Bradford pear-1
Russian olive-1
Japanese honeysuckles-4
Toadflax- (linaria dalmatica or L. vulgaris)-5
Oxe-eye daisy-6
African Rue-2
burning bush=Kochia scoparoia-2 (1 wanted)
Queen Ann's lace-5
myrtle spurge-1
cypress spurge-2
horsetail-2
purple loosestrife-3
Loosestrife all varieties except purple -13 (5 wanted)
scotch thistle-1
scotch broom-1
English Ivy-7 (1 wanted)
Burning bush- 6 (3 wanted)
St John's wort-2

Ok, I'm not suggesting that anyone be banned from offering these nor would even I suggest it. These are small amounts in the grand scheme of things to be sure.

is this a problem? How do we educate then without coming off as eco-fanatics (eco terrorists, eco-nazis, whatever)?
Do we bother? And are we arrogant enough to think that if we educate then people will automatically "see the light" and see things "our" way?

Personally, I'd rather see a Native Plants/Species forum. Much different than "wild plants", no matter what part of the world *you* live in. Emphasis on NATIVE. Some people in america consider Dame's Rocket to be a "wild plant" and it is. But it's not native. It's aggressive and invasive, and crowds out native plants.

A Native plant forum may put an end to questions on how to get Queen Anne's Lace or Dame's Rocket to grow in North America, and will you send me some seeds, please. No, I have plenty of both, and I won't send you seeds. Unless you live in an area where they're native. A forum like this would require a certain bit of knowledge, I realise. It would ask something , and very little of something, of it's readers. Is this too much to ask? It could also be a clearing-house for information on non-native aggressives, no matter what part of the world you live in.

Also, this gives ME a chance to learn about the Native flora and fauna of other sections of my country, and of the world. So *I* don't send them a nasty plant! Not a bad deal! It's all about becoming more sensitive to everything...even things in the next county!

For instance...I was astonished to learn that English House Sparrows are becoming scarce in England, while they are the bane of every birder here. I'd gladly ship a couple of gross to England, believe you me.

A forum called Native Species would automatically address the issue of non-natives, whether aggressive or not.

Ok...a baptisia australis in my part of the world is a native plant. In your part of the world...it's migh not be native, but may be a docile visitor, a "wild plant." something pretty to look at...and that's fine. I have zinnias, every year..and iris..and cosmos, and hair allium, and marigolds, and sweet williams, and a tree peony, and morning glories, and tomatoes and lettuce and basil...oh, I can go on...... none of them native. Guess what...they aren't going to colonize and push out native plants... IN MY PART OF THE WORLD. In your part of the world..they may be quite invasive. I would like to know about that...so I wouldn't buy them, and by my purchase, encourage those who grow invasive plants.

Hellllllllllooooooooooooo.....you have to think about the things you sell. It's NOT all about your bottom line. Think globally, act locally.

I've got nothing against "wild plants", IF they're well behaved. I have quite a few....it's when they're aggressive and invasive that we ALL have to watch out., no matter what continent. What if my japanese honeysuckle decided to take over YOUR part of the world? Or my Kudzu? If they haven't already. April

Thank you much, Pville, even more surprized.
BTW, Brasilian Pepper Trees are invasive in Florida, but gorgeous specimen trees here where they can't spread for lack of water. I love Ailanthus when grown in containers, especially as bonsai. One man's terrorist is another nut's freedom fighter, hee hee.

This message was edited Nov 16, 2004 10:44 PM

Ulrich-
People said much the same about Kudzu and Tamarisk-both have been found way outside their climatic and envirnomental zones!!

P'ville

Very true Ulrich and exactly why a venue for providing that kind of valuable info by locale is so important IMO.

P'ville

Why can't i do an edit copy edit paste? Anyone? April

April,

just go to the text you want to copy. Don't edit. Highlight the text, oposite mouse click and select copy. Then go to where you want to paste it, opposite mouse click again and select paste.

Pville, caron, y'all got me convinced.

P'ville

What is it you are trying to paste April?

P'ville, I'll try one last time...doesn't seem to like the paste function, LOL!

P'ville

Ok...I give up...but it was a great thought. I think! Sorry to all of you! April

April....if there is something you want to paste if you tell me where it is I will paste it for you.

I have just read this entire thread and decided I was going to post even if it is taken as a comment from someone who is not in the know about these things!!!

Since I joined Daves a little over a year ago I have learned more about invasive plants from the Plants Data Base than I ever would have taken the time to learn in any other manner.

I am not saying that it gave me all of the information, but it sure warned me enough to do more research on my own.

I know that I would not search forums for the information no matter how well formatted it was!

I would, if I saw a post requesting a plant that was very invasive by a user, write that user an email warning them about the plant and probably providing a link to the plants database, I would not post it in the thread in fear of embarrassing them.

I am sure it is much simpler to cut and paste from an excel spread sheet than to look up the plants and add the additional information on each one, if it will make it easier for you I would be glad to assist you with doing that.

If your forum had been approved it would have been limited after the first thread to only DG members who have paid subscriptions. The plant database is accessible to all of the non-paying users also! What better way to get the information to as many people who might be affected as possible?



This message was edited Nov 17, 2004 7:59 AM

aknapp

are you saying that no one but paid subscribers can see the first post of any thread??

No I am so sorry if I didn't word that properly. Anyone that has signed up for a free account can see the first post of a thread.

The exceptions to that are the forums that are blocked to anyone except subscribers.

But this one is a perfect example of how long threads can be and how much information they contain.

I hope I am correct in the information that I am relaying, but I believe this is the way it is.

Everyone that signs up for a free or paid account is given access to the plants database and can view all of the information about each plant. (there is a limitation placed on the free users in the amount of plants that they can look up a day)

Again I am hoping that my information is correct and if not that someone will correct me.

aknapp is correct.

Only paid subscribers can see this thread, and all others within this specific forum.

Most forums allow the first post to be viewed; a few are completely off limits to non-subscribed members.

Non-subscribed members have access to the Plants Database but they can only conduct ten general searches each day and cannot use the advanced search features. (They can use other search and browse features to find their way around.)

Other than those limitations, a basic membership gives them the same features everyone else has access to: the Garden Watchdog and PlantScout are completely accessible to them, they have their own Journal and can use the trading tools. They can use Garden Terms and Botanary and they can access the member-to-member messaging system.

aknapp,

I'm not sure I understood your post either.

This forum was not requested for the purpose of posting spreadsheets with lists of invasive plants, nor to replace the PDB in any way, nor a place where subscribers would have to hunt down such information. The ongoing identification, prevention, management, and control of invasive plants, both in our own gardens and in the larger landscape, is of significant interest and importance to a lot of us. It has been difficult to maintain an ongoing discussion of the subject in other forums where other subscribers have seen this subject as inappropriate or off topic in those forums.

As for it being easy for me to cut and paste from an excel spread sheet, we are creating those spreadsheets and I have spent many hours and days thus far in reseaching the information to develop a spreadsheet for just one state, and it has been anything but easy. It involves a bit more than cutting and pasting. Your offer to help is greatly appreciated. For more information and background on this project please see http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465242/ and http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/469038/

Your comment regarding to what extent non-subscribers applies to forums regardless of whether a separate forum is set up for this subject or not so I guess I missed the relevance of your point on that. And as you said, non-subscribers are also limited in their use of the PDB.

This message was edited Nov 17, 2004 12:03 PM

Thanks for posting that info Terry I thought I was close, but sure am glad you filled in all of the blanks that I left!

Pville,

aknapp said

caron said

Hence the explanation of what subscribers vs. non-subscribers can access. I think aknapp's point was that information in the PDB is more readily accessible to all users (subscriber or not, member or not) than information in a forum where only the first post could be read. And I would tend to agree with her. The PDB has been and remains our biggest "draw" of new visitors, members, and ultimately subscribers.

Now a request for an administrative clarification, if I may. In the posts above, you've mentioned twice (at least) that your threads are being interrupted or halted by detractors.

and

That's news to me and certainly out of character for Dave's Garden forums. Please provide me with links to all instances where your threads have been interrupted or halted. (Either here or via a member message would be fine.)

Everybody come on over for tea -- you're all a great bunch! I'm in Ohio, the heart of it all, centrally located. Nobody's going to blink here if you have a touch of rum in your cup, for your sinuses. By the way, um... are evening primroses invasive here? Mine seem well-behaved, but...

And should I be sharing cosmos seeds with neighbors when they seed so prolifically? Am I destined to be remembered as the Typhoid Mary of Ohio gardens?

And this brings me to the point, for me at least, of this thread: Would anyone like to recommend the best place to ask these kinds of questions where like-minded gardeners could answer them? The plant database is a wonderful resource, but it can't possibly address exactly where in the world a plant that is native in place A and a benign non-native in place B becomes a monster invasive in place C. Only local gardeners can really address this. I expect spirited discussions will ensue, but all who visit those threads (dare I suggest in their own FORUM? :) would understand the issue at hand is a plant's behavior in a certain locale.

Readers of these particular threads also would enter with the understanding that the discussion might cover the gardener's choice to have a potentially invasive plant and try to contain it, while another gardener might decide to wage no-holds-barred war against this plant, while a third gardener might want advice on how to eradicate the plant without resorting to chemicals.

What forums would you recommend where this agreement to disagree is in place, and doesn't need to be hashed out before I can get the advice and varied opinions I seek?

Thanks again Terry, but I honestly got pretty much what I expected as an answer.

First let me acknowledge that I was not saying what you are doing at this point is an easy task!! If I indicated that it was not my intention.

My offer to help was if you decide to do this in the plants database which is where I think it would be of greater service to the dave's garden community on the whole.

My next question I expect will get the same results, but I am wondering if you are taking the time and trouble to accumulate this information who is you targeted population?

Maybe I am confused it happens a lot, but it does seem to me if you are hoping to get your information out to as many people as possible than the plant data base would serve your purpose far better than a forum.

I know that I am not the only member here that relies heavily on the information provided in the database, and I would be far more likely to check there for the information than I would in a forum where I would have to look through a lot of posts to find the one that I needed?? Or am I confused on how you were planning to set up this forum??

If it is going to be a standard forum, than there are going to be many posts to go through or I would have to do a search on an individual plant each time I was considering one. To me its far easier to have all of that information in one place, which brings us back to the plant database.

If I am not understanding what you have in mind, or if I have missed it in one of the posts above, please help me to figure it out.

Terry,

See my links in previous post 9:02 AM CST. Those are not all inclusive. Would have to hunt for the rest to find them. I am trying to pull all of our past discussions on the subject together in one place which is at the second link I posted in referenced thread above. I think the misunderstanding re: aknapp initial post come from his/her assumption that the new thread that was requested would some how be intended to replace something in the PDB which was never the intent.

Rock City,

I don't know off the top of my head about evening primroses in Ohio. That is exactly why we have embarked on this project, but we haven't gotten to Ohio yet. http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465242/ is our "home" thread at the moment and we would love to have you ask your questions and participate there. You make some excellent points and I would appreciate it greatly if you would cut and paste your entire post to that thread.

aknapp,

Whether or not this ( the data in the invasives spreadsheets) eventually become part of the PDB is up to DG not me. We would be very happy to have it become part of the PDB but I can't address the feasibility of that. Our primary target is ourselves. We are trying to educate ourselves on the identification, management, and control of invasives. It is of course our hopes that the resulting info would be useful to many others.

Again, I reiterate: There was never any intention for the requested forum to replace the PDB in anyway. Like any other forum, it would have been a place for those with questions, answers, comments, opinions, observations, and information on this subject to share them.....nothing more and nothing less.


This message was edited Nov 17, 2004 11:29 AM

Where did I ever indicate that I believed you were attempting to replace the plant database???

My question is why can't you work within the plant database???

aknapp.....sigh......I'm sorry I don't know how to clarify it any better for you. The PDB is a database and the forums are a venue for discussion. Following your logic all garden related forums should be discontinued and the information moved to the PDB. That would render the PDB quite unweildy don't you thinK?

Nancy, unless I'm missing something, both hyperlinks in your post above are to the same thread, which I've read and posted to along with several others.

The only thing I found that might have been construed as a negative (and it's a bit of stretch) was a suggestion/question on Nov. 14 to copy and paste certain key information into another forum:

If that is the post in question,

1) That seems to be a suggestion to "spread the news" not stop it. It was also specific to one topic and one post within the thread, not the entire thread.

2) Pragmatically, it doesn't appear to have interfered or halted the thread, which has continued for another 100+ posts, yes?

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I'm just not seeing how this translates to being "kicked around from forum to forum" - if there are instances where you have been asked to leave a forum or to not post to a particular thread, I'll be happy to review them with you.

Rockcity asks

The Garden Foes forum has been proffered as a place to discuss invasives - and that would be my suggestion too ;o) You also mentioned that some folks will use chemical herbicides while others prefer oganic options - there is an Organics forum if a discussion of treatment choices would be better suited there. (Although I doubt anyone in Garden Foes is going to raise objections if you want to weigh the pros and cons of chemicals vs. mechanical weeding, burning, girdling, or other non-chemical eradication measures.)

I've been following this a little. It is kind of hard for me to understand why anyone would go to all the trouble of getting this information put together after knowing that a specific forum was NOT going to become reality for said information. I also don't understand why adults don't take NO for an answer. This thread should have stopped way back at the top after Dave and Terry gave their input. Unless I'm missing something, I always thought the administrators of a site had the last word and I, for one, appreciate everything they say and understand that for my money, they have gone far and above to provide a site that has everything necessary, already here at DG, to include what is being talked about on this thread. JMHO.

Sorry Terry. I have edited it and corrected it. I am working with several windows and it is getting rather confusing. In any case, I don't care to belabor the point. As I said, I would have to hunt the others down and I don't have the time or inclination to do that right now. If you really need that information, I will try to get it for you later today.

Brugie, The developing of this information pre dated the requrest for this forum and the request for the forum was a totally independent action. It would have been a convenient forum for those of us working on this project to discuss the whats and hows of what we are doing as we are doing it, but that was never the sole or even primary purpose of the forum. We are now trying to pull our previous discussions and information in to one place. We have moved on and are trying to move ahead and I agree that further discussion on the pros and cons of a separate forum for the subject of invasives is moot for the time being. I am only trying to respond to the continued questions (which at this point seem to be taking the tone of derisive rhetorical questions IMO) and point people who expressed their interest and support for such a formum to our current discussion location.