Feel a need for a new forum- North American Exotic Invasives

Hello Baa. Thank you for sharing Organic Gardening as a personal choice of yours as a control method for exotic invasives with me. Most unfortunately, I have been using a repertoire of approved chemicals when attempting to manage a few of the plants I have over here on this continent. Sadly, your response is so illustrative of how questions and concerns of a NA exotic species nature would be viewed in the Organic Gardening Forum of DG. Please understand that your reference to organic gardening is your choice in control aspect most certainly not mine as I have done considerable research in this area and would prefer to use methods approved by professionals and tried and true by fellow gardeners in the area who routinely are forced to deal with the existence of exotic invasive species. Baa... did you actually look at Garden Foes other than to cut and paste the head blurb for me? Here, please allow me to cut and paste for you and I excluded the first three as those were people who wanted a thread on NA exotic invasives-
Age Old Problem: Fungus Gnats
SOW BUGS IN COMPOST PILE
surrounded by RABBITS
Weevils
friend or foe?
Squirrel deterrent working
deer strips live oak bark
Fire ant attack! This is war!
Gardens Alive Products?
Id this bug: Foe? How bad? How do I get rid of it?
Viburnum leaf beetle
black bug in SoCal?
what is this?
what bug am i?
Insect ID - Good or Bad?
Carpenter or Wood Bees
my bradford pear needs help
Now Baa... please page back in that forum and you will find that other than those three posts I excluded... the threads are disproportionately focused on critter control.Actually, there were a sum total of 5 out of 18 pages of threads. I saw one in particular there on burning bushes and I doubt seriously if that poster would have welcomed the types of comments that would have come from folk trying to deal with exotic invasive species, please take a moment to look up Euonymous alata. A garden foe is a colloquilism used over here as a catchall for nuisance critters to include but not limited to pests that eat plants and critters that destroy plants. Perhaps that is why a species such as Bradford Pear was being discussed as being in need of "help" other than being cut down to the base and stumped out in that forum. Food for thought. I have posted in that forum when appropriate to do so. As it appears you are the self professed keeper of the forums, perhaps it is time for me to throw in the towel. That's what you wanted isn't it Baa? No need to help me understand why you felt the need to throw a monkey wrench in the requests of a few dedicated gardeners who were trying to respectully request reconsideration, yet you did. I didn't see anyone do this to people who wanted a Caregiving Forum or a Stay At Home Moms forum. I also didn't see this type of opposition when a Cooks On Call thread was suggested and approved by Dave. Additionally, Public Gardens appeared on the home page here and I doubt seriously if there are any plants growing in them that aren't specifically addressed elsewhere yet that was added... well there are most probably a few exotic invasive species growing here and there in them as I volunteer in Public Parks and happen to have run across my fair share. Basically I see a Fruits and Nuts Forum yet there is a Trees and Shrubs Forum and I see a Canning and Freezing Forum yet there is a Recipes Forum. Would it not be unreasonable to have believed that a Forum on NA exotic species could have coexisted nicely here as a forum where people sharing similar gardening passions could have congregated? From a "forum management" standpoint, it appeared to make sense to me.I will turn off the thread watcher to this particular thread as it appears you speak for those who have been around longer than me. The opposition you have displayed here is most unfortunately, how these types of requests and concerns are viewed throughout the threads... again... ""It would have been nice to rope in all the peripheral issues of species that are exotic and invasive to the continent of North America into one forum." I believe there are many gardeners who would have deriven substantial benefits from having it all concentrated to one readily identifiable area and for this reason alone, I would hope that Dave and Terry would reconsider. Best wishes to you Baa.

A separate forum for exotic invasives could be a useful tool! Finned, furred, leaved, and winged! April

I have read Ohio's Department of Natural Resources suggestions on controlling invasive plants, as well as my local extension office's online and phone advice; however, having comrades in arms with whom to commiserate and trade stories would be great! The bradford pear and burning bush references were a good case in point on why I don't do it on those forums: However lovely, those ornamentals are not native and I'd look to get rid of them. A forum where this is understood, and I don't end up offending someone who loves their bradford pear or burning bush, or who would gasp at my use of Roundup (I once was where you are now, before I saw asian honeysuckle kill a forest) would be a fine thing. After all, I'm not looking to defend my decision to chop down and poison honeysuckle or pull up English ivy -- I want a place where fellow righteous soldiers will share their successes and frustrations.

And all that being said, I think Dave's Garden is a fine place to hang out and won't abandon it if I don't get to see this additional forum.

Pville, you are a stud muffin. Thanks for sharing your research!

a stud muffin? LOL.....I've been called a lot of things but stud muffin is a new one....LOLOL.

Rock on RockCity!

Nancy, aka Pville Planter

Stud Muffin, ROFLMBO, that's well said.
Rock City, we aren't leaving DG, they may kick us out, but everyone involved truly loves DG. We're just debating.
iluveverbdy, Sidney

sure....go ahead and laugh Sidney....but remember Fritch proposed to me LOLOL.

I think Baa is owed an apology for this unwarranted and off-base attack. She was very clear in stating that she wasn't attempting to speak in an official capacity, but was instead offering you some viable alternatives as one member to another. (Extra nice is how everyone daintily stepped over these snide comments and kept the banter rolling along.)



As many here can attest, I've been raising cautionary flags against any more non-gardening forums for quite some time. (The SAHM forum was created years ago, so it's not a good example for purposes of this discussion.) In fact, I'd guess it's probably about time to go back through the forums and see which ones received the least traffic this year and consider putting them on temporary or permanent haiatus.



To set the record straight, Dave hasn't created a Cooks on Call forum, in part because of the concerns raised by me and others.


Along with the reasons I gave earlier in this thread, it is this defensive and combative posturing that makes me leery of creating this forum. If this thread is a "respectful request" then heaven help anyone who might voice a different opinion in the proposed forum.

And the simple fact remains there are already venues in place to meet the needs stated above:

Reference list of invasives
The Plants Databse contains over 1,700 plants noted as invasive: http://davesgarden.com/pdb/advanced.php?nn%5B16%5D=0&nn%5B1%5D=0&nn%5B2%5D=0&nn%5B3%5D=0&nn%5B4%5D=0&nn%5B5%5D=0&nn%5B6%5D=0&nn%5B7%5D=0&nn%5B8%5D=0&nn%5B9%5D=1&nn%5B23%5D=0&nn%5B10%5D=0&nn%5B12%5D=0&sname=Plants&Search.x=16&Search.y=0

The editors are willing to add this checkbox to other plants if needed. What better place to add your own comments about why these plants are considered invasive, geographic areas most threatened, what conditions may trigger invasive tendencies, suggest alternative plants, etc.?

It is a searchable, cross-referenced compilation which is much easier to navigate than a forum of threads that appear in reverse chronological order.

Identification
The ID forum is for all plants. As was mentioned, who better to help ID a plant than someone living where it grows as a native?

Control and eradication
Just because Garden Foes hasn't been widely used for discussion of invasive plants doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be. That IS one of its stated purposes and constructive threads on how to control or eradicate specific plants are welcome there. (But please understand that browbeating and deriding those who disagree with you won't be welcome there or in any other forum.)

Yes, it can be argued these are disjointed/unconnected features and forums. Welcome to one of the biggest bugaboos facing websites. Throwing everything into one forum might bring everything into one area, but - just as rolling everything on this site into one forum wouldn't solve the disjointed problem - a dedicated forum will be difficult to navigate and search. Those problems exist whether everything is in one forum or interspersed among other topics.

EQUIL,
Also to set the record straight, Dave does not approve THREADS, he merely monitors them for content unoffensive to DG. Cooks on Call has never been made into a FORUM and thanks to you, probably never will be now. I resent that you even made a comment like that regarding what I and others were trying to do. FYI, we have never received an answer and I don't expect to now. I would appreciate it if you would stick to your own concerns and not "throw monkey wrenches" into other's ideas as well. What I see going on here is what is good for one, is not good for others.

It seems to me that you would get more with "honey than vinegar" and you are so defensive about this whole approach that you've probably lost any chance of seeing a forum for invasive species anywhere on DG. So, perhaps you should start your own website and let us know what it is and maybe we'll check it out.

While it is none of my business, I would like to see a "public" apology to Baa, I am shocked that we even have people on DG that act like this and as I've said before, I think this kind of behavior is what is driving other DGers away. I hope it stops soon. And after the apology, I think the whole subject should be left alone




This message was edited Nov 16, 2004 11:34 AM

I will apologize to Baa as it appears he/she is deserving of same. Baa, I am so sorry if I offended you as it was not my intent to do so. It was my sincere intent to relay to you how important it would be to me, and evidently quite a few others, to have a forum just to be able to addess the concerns outlined above.

Terry, quite frankly I was offended and feeling attacked when Baa mentioned the Organic Gardening Forum and the Gardening Foes Forum when it appeared Baa hadn't been over there at all. My interpretation was that my recommendation of using Garlon or Tordon from another thread in which Baa posted was a form of browbeating and deriding my comments from over there over here and "steering" me over to the "right" way to handle Tree of Heaven. It would appear this may not have been Baa's intent based on your reaction however that is how I interpreted it. I apologize for any misinterpretation if it was not Baa's intent to steer me over to organic control methods for Tree Of Heaven or Buckthorn or Reed Canary Grass. Currently those are the only 3 plants I use herbicides on. Just as people are passionate about never using chemicals, there are people who are passionate about systematically and methodically removing exotic invasives from their properties. We're all gardeners as we all have our unique ways of gardening. These differences should be celebrated as wouldn't every yard look horrible if everybody planted the exact same plant? I choose a combination of plants over by me, both native and exotic. Do I knowingly choose an exotic invasive though, not any more. Are others entitled to do so, absolutely in my opinion.

Yes, I am aware the forum for Cooks On Call was never created but I did see where he approved it. I can appreciate your concern over defensive posturing. I have seen it happening all over when threads get off topic which was why I originally suggested the addition of a NA Exotic Invasives Forum. Additionally, I would not have even suggested it had I not been led to believe that all it basically took was 5 people to show and post an interest if it was gardening related and a forum would be created. Perhaps this is the root of the issue.

I have not posted much regarding the few questions I saw over there in Garden Foes that I could have answered specifically because the intent of the poster was evident and specifically because I didn't want to appear to be "browbeating and deriding those who disagree" with me. I also have not posted questions of my own over there as Garden Foes appears to have a different focus. Yet on the other hand, I do not appreciate being brow beaten by those whom I perceived to have been disrespectful of some of the very difficult decisions I have been forced to make. One of them was the use of herbicides.

Sorry MistyMeadows, I was typing when you posted. It was not my intent to sabotage a Cooks On Call Thread just as I am sure it was not Baa's intent to sabotage a forum on what was being requested here. I was under the impression the Cooks On Call forum was a dead issue over there based on follow up posts just as my request for a forum on Bogs, Marshes, and Wetlands was.

MistyMeadows, Your perception of what is going on here as being exclusively good for me and not for the others who posted an interest here is sort of disheartening. Best wishes to you in getting your new Cooks On Call Thread.

Equil, Dave did not actually approve the Cooks on Call forum:

[Terry, if you like it go ahead and create the forum.]
and Terry, who at first thought it was a good idea, decided that it probably wasn't necessary. But, as I've said there has been no formal answer given and I don't expect that we will see any forum for Cooks on Call now or in the future.

You've mentioned something about "5 people" to start a forum. I believe (and Terry or Dave, correct me if I'm wrong) that Dave was talking about individual state forums and then it was decided that a forum for gardening for each state would just be far too much to muddle through the growing list of forums. While I would have loved to see a KY forum, I totally agree.

I also do think that there are several forums listed now that have lived there life and perhaps now need to archived. Perhaps if some of the "older, less used forums" were deleted, somewhere down the road, when the dust settles, consideration might be made for our suggestions for new forums. In the meantime, we should just get on with it and post/answer where we can.

I appreciate your apology to Baa and thank you for doing that.

Well, I want to say I can see where Terry, Baa and Dave are coming from. I have to agree that a forum for North American Exotic Invasives discussion is not a good fit for dealing with them. I think gathering of information about exotics and posting this as a list would be much more helpful.

After the initial posting of invasive lists for each state etc, is the forum going to actually be busy with communication after a certain period. How much discussion and how many questions will actually be posted after information has been given on what is invasive and how to get rid of invasives? After the discussion is exhausted and the lists are there, what if the forum goes super quiet and is taken down like a couple non-busy forums have? Then the information is lost. Can't that be better presented in a FAQ or something.

If we present this information in a forum, is a forum on Australian Exotic Invasives, British Exotic Invasives, South American Exotic Invasives next. Wouldn't we better serve our members as a whole by posting this information in another place that could be updated yearly as lists change? I do agree that Exotic Invasives in North America are a very important issue and that we should make information about them easily available, but I don't think there is a overwhelming need for a place to continually discuss them. The lists may be continually changing, but the ways they are dealt with are pretty unchanging (except in political situations - which is not allowed to be discussed on DG).

Hi MistyMeadows, thanks a lot. Your comments meant a lot to me.

Equil, I edited my post that said "you" and changed it to "one". I didn't mean to make that seem like I was singling you out. I agree that not everything is perfect here, but we all need to be respectful of what others say and we should feel free to post here without retaliation. I am as guilty of this as the next one.

I cannot comment on whether a forum on invasive species is good or bad because that is not my forte. I'm lucky to get the cabbage plants planted etc (my DH is the green thumb)....I'm just the chief cook and bottle washer :) I never would have even posted on here except that Cooks on Call was brought into it and the door opened.

I do hope that something works out for everyone that wants a new forum at some point, but think about it......if we have a forum for everything aspect of our lives, Dave and Terry would be spinning and I'm sure the price of DG would have to go up....

I have a rule. Write what's on your mind, leave it alone for a little while, go back and read it and if it's still what you really want to say and aren't going to hurt/insult anyone in the process, then send it. How many times have we written things and sent them, only to say later on "I wish I hadn't done that."

Geez, this sounds like a new forum....the "Soundoff Forum"....don't throw those rotten tomatoes at me, I'm just joking....:) Happy Day, Kathy

Wow, a "Sound Off Forum"? Isn't that what spouses are for?

Say Kathy... thanks for the olive branch! I'm taking it. Here's the deal for me which is almost laughable and why I know more about exotic invasives than what I ever wanted to know. I have had the plant police out to my home so many times I don't know what to do. Not to mention the committee members for my homeowners association wanting to officially make it against our bylaws to plant anything but native plants which I find to be enough to make me want to gag. On the other side are the other neighbors begging me to get on the committee. Uh uh no way no how never in a million years as all I care about is what I'm doing here to keep myself out of trouble with the plant police. Every time I turn around it seems as if I am spotting something new thanks in part to their incessant flyers. My property, like many others in my area, is well over 50% degraded. I'd go broke cleaning it all up in the time frame they'd like and I sure as heck won't be signing their petiton to ban anything but native plants and this is evidently a thorn in their sides. Virtually every week I get a flyer in my mailbox spotlighting a new exotic invasive. Heck, there were so many I didn't even know which ones to go after first. I got a lot of help, and I still do. Mostly from other people who have to deal with the local native nazis who refuse to acknowledge that we (my husband and I) pay the property taxes here and that not all plants from other continents form monocultures and outcompete native plants. I really do know more than what I ever wanted to know thanks to having to deal with their repeated visits. Very very very frustrating for me considering I have had to remove so many plants I bought and paid for and stuck in the ground here. It was my husband who actually called it quits over here when he said figure out what the heck was going on or quit gardening as we couldn't afford to keep tossing money out the window anymore. I envy those out there who were smart enough NOT to purchase property with a homeonwers association. I would really like to keep learning about these plants so that at least the day THEY come for my iris or my tulips or my hostas I can say whoa... wait a second here... where'd you get your information? On the other hand, I really have lost a lot of money I couldn't afford to lose planting things that became illegal and would like to steer clear of those as I just don't have a money tree out back these days. Here's the irony of the situation, one of the plant police recommended a landscaper to us who sold us plants that they didn't approve of. And, I need help real bad around the corner here with some plants in my wetlands. Like I said, it's almost laughable over here its such a mess. A husband who says it looks barren over here and to do something about it yet on the other hand he says don't do anything about it until I figure out what's up and plant police that are telling me what to do about it and when to do it. The plant police come, I show them my plants, and the plant police leave. I have no doubt it was one of the plant police who put an anonymous note in my mailbox about the burning bushes. Why they didn't feel comfortable just walking over here and telling me the truth face to face is beyond me. I may be feeling knocked down and beaten out of a few plants but there are so many others. Seriously, I'm better off taking my chances here in the forums with other gardeners. Indecisive husband for sale- cheap! Swamp land for sale in Illinois with slight homeowners association issues- cheap!

Thanks for your comments too sweezel.

I suppose what I have a hard time understanding is why those who are not interested in a subject are opposed to others who are interested in it having a place to discuss it. If you aren't interested, whether it be a state, cooking, or invasive species, there is no requirement to participate. This isn't like when you had to take PE in middle school whether you wanted to or not.

It also seems that this is a democracy that has gone a bit awry. Democracy and concensus work well in small communities with similar backgrounds and goals and DG may well have fit that bill initially. If I might offer a suggestion. Perhaps it is the very nature of this democratic and concensus driven approach that is causing a lot of strife. So perhaps the time has come to take a new approach.

Equil, I have two comments. First....try to find a place in the country without a homeowner's assocation. The old HA scares the fire out of me and I steer clear of them (I love my farm)....and second, have you ever considering a rock garden?

PP, as has been said, this is Dave's site, he has his rules and guidelines and it is his to do with however he wishes. Sometimes onecan't change city hall and sometimes its okay not to even try.

And, the one thing we all try to steer clear from on DG is politics. It sneaks in once in a blue moon, but perhaps that's the best way to describe what we don't want here and have seen alot of lately.

:) I wish you all a great day.

pville planter, very well said!!!!
I am amazed, and somewhat saddened to see the way of this thread, I agree with equilibrium that this new thread is so needed, just like when I interfered with how I felt about the Texas forum, if they wanted it and Dave and Terry agreed, why not, I just didn't see the need, but if it makes them happy, go for it! And who was I to say they should not have it!
Many of us would greatly apreciate this to be, for me I surely would not have planted Mugwort and Evening Primrose if this new site had been already here.
Swaying us to do our own Website, I don't feel was very nice, We're here to learn from one another, share our knowledge, and if recipes, home moms etc are allowed, and this is fine with me, then why not this one who would benefit the community at large! This is a Gardening Website that is growing by leaps and bounds, the best around, I'm so glad I found it. let's make it even better. Many of us are asking, and a trial base would so be appreciated, Thank-you for allowing us the Democratic voice!!! Annie

Sorry MM, you have me completely lost. My suggestion was that in order to avoid politics, one might want to consider not making every request or administrative action a platform for public debate.

And I agree with you PP, but that's not how you came across to me in your previous post. A prime example of how things get lost in translation.

In the fourth post from the top, Dave said:

Two posts later, I gave our joint decision. Apparently, that didn't carry much weight because this morning (41 posts later), I stepped back in to try stop the fracas. The simple fact of the matter is nobody likes to be told no. We didn't like it when we were tots, and we don't like it as adults. Contrary to what I believed as a kid, it's not fun to turn down someone's request. It's a lot easier on everyone when we can choose to accept decisions that don't go our way.

Now 60 posts into this thread and we're still going strong ;o)

There is some irony to all this, at least from my perspective. On Nov. 4, I suggested a new forum (or two) - which would be for the benefit of gardeners/DG members: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/466790/ and it received 22 replies. Most of the posts were on topic, none of them opposed the idea. But I haven't proceeded with it because......yeah, you guessed it. I hold myself to the same standard as everyone else, and I felt that we already had too many forums going so I let the matter drop.

To address some of the other issues that have been brought up on how to conduct a new forum approval process:

I agree that disinterested parties aren't compelled to weigh in on a decision that doesn't concern them. But within this thread, I don't see any opposition to this idea from otherwise disinterested participants until their personal, unrelated requests got dragged into the fray.

And no, I don't think this has ever been a democractic process - if people "voted" for a forum that Dave didn't think was appropriate, it wouldn't be implemented, no matter how many people clamored for it. I am sorry if anyone believed that any forum would be approved if it got five (or some other number) of votes from the members.

I contend that if we didn't allow public discourse of the pros and cons of a new forum, there would be allegations of favoritism; those who know the system get their way. And those who might have valid reasons for opposing something wouldn't have an opportunity to weigh in until it was too late. Which would create more division and hard feelings.

However, if there are other ideas on how to go about suggesting and discussing new forum ideas that will keep the peace, I'd be happy to hear them and I think Dave would, too.

Woah let's take step back here please!

First off, please let me say this is the first I've seen this forum since this morning and I haven't complained about being offended to anyone and to be honest, I'm not offended although I do feel some of your comments are somewhat unfair Equilibrium.

Secondly, I have never, nope not once posted to any Tree of Heaven thread, I don't know the first thing about it, neither have I ever suggested that organic is the only way, anyone who read my recent posts in farm life will know and in a recent posts with PvillePlanter in organic gardening, I don't even claim to be an organic gardener! I have not once suggested to anyone here or elsewhere that they mustn't use any kind of chemicals, that would be hypocritial. Perhaps if you went back to the thread you thought I'd answered to and posted it here we could see what comments are there? I can't defend myself properly because I don't know where the thread is and what on earth is Garlon or Tordon?

Thirdly, I only posted after the decision from Terry and Dave was given. I would never try to influence a decision behind anyones backs, I'm sure I'd be given short shrift if I did! Not once have I worked in an underhand manner here, if I have an opinion, I give it to either the person concerned or outright in public, like I am now.

I do read Garden Foes, I don't have anything much to contribute there since the majority are problems I personally can't answer since many are about insects, mammals or diseases that I don't encounter nor do I personally need much help with many because the main problem areas in my garden, slugs, snails, grey mould and mildew aren't a brain strain to tackle. I read such forums in the spirit of learning. I agree, not much in there about invasive plants but like breeds like and I'm sure a few good threads in there will encourage more.

If you want to throw any towels in, that is your decision, I like a sensible debate and know full well that if someone holds a very firm opinion nothing anyone else can say will influence that but there is nothing wrong in talking something through or holding an opinion.

I'm very keen on this subject, International Trading holds a recent thread from me where I suggested we try to find the information on what is restricted or prohibited in our respective regions and post it up to help avoid potential problems with customs and the environment. For what it's worth, it attracted only one other poster and this was all prior to these discussions. A number of older threads I've posted to are regarding environmentally damaging species. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea either but since the decision was taken I was indeed, as Terry said above, trying to find alternatives and reasons why an international input might be worth something.

We've all had a say here and the thread has not been removed (isn't that democratic?), just because a decision is taken to not go forward at this time is no reflection on the subscribers who were for or against it but someone has to take that ultimate decision and take into consideration the site as a whole.

Perhaps rather than each individual making a request for a new forum or any kind of site change via starting a thread in this forum, those requests should be emailed to DG for consideration. Those that have been previously addressed and decided (which may or may not be known to the requestor), and those on which an administrative decision has already or needs to be made primarily on a pragmatic or technical basis, are then not subjected to reopening the same cans of worms or wasted energy and debate over moot points. Those that are felt to be appropriate for obtaining membership input and feedback on could then be posted by Dave or Terry together with some clear parameters for the boundaries for the type of input being sought and a time frame doing so.

I have a small correction to add

I did reply to one thread in Organic Gardening regarding Tree of Heaven, as the poster was looking for organic ways of dealing with 'trash tree' (their words not mine) I offered a website link to an organic site with information, that was my one and only post there. The one and only reason I replied to this thread is because another member requested I take a look since no one else had offered anything at that time. If the member had been looking for conventional methods I would hav answered in that vein too.

Here is the thread http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/459192/ please let me know if I, in any way, have been discourteous or condemning of other methods in that thread, I really can't see it!

PP, I am not opposed to it, but I was pointed to this thread by a personal e-mail. I am guessing this was because I contributed to the thread that at least partially brought about this request and it was assumed that I would throw my name in with a "me too!". Am I not supposed to not give my viewpoint, because I don't completely see a need for an actual discussion forum and am not throwing my name in the pot of support? I am not boycotting the suggestion of the forum - I just think the information would be better presented in a different format and I feel the specific questions about invasives would be so uncommon after a presentation of the lists that another forum with other subjects could be used. Even the Garden Foes or another forum's name or description could be edited to include non-native invasives in the description of the discussions.

i'm a dis-interested party: i see no need for a new forum on the topic. the pdb is the perfect place to mark a plant as invasive. a database can be set up to use attributes to find out anything you want. i am especially disturbed to watch people bickering about a decision that was made by the admins [they deserve a LOT of respect for what they do with this site.] some of the original members of this site deserve some respect too.
you need to discuss something? use email or chat.
ps - i think people have too much time on their hands now that the gardening season is winding down. this has not been the only thread i've seen of late laden with bickering.

This message was edited Nov 16, 2004 3:07 PM

This all just makes my head swim and I feel awful for the admins having to plow through all of this. So many great people have left lately because of this exact kind of debate and it really leaves me saddened.

I kept thinking that I wasn't one of the clique people but I just realized that I am because of this sort of thing. I want to be among people who want to laugh and have fun in and out of their gardens. It just all feels so competetive now. And reactive. I think that one of the reason that some of the subscribers have been here for so long and successfully is because they don't react immediately to things that might not be in their area of interest or agreement.

I just hope for patience and that everyone can follow their example, including myself.

edited for poor spelling

This message was edited Nov 16, 2004 12:24 PM

Would love to see this forum started. I frequently recommend plants to customers based on 'education' rather than experience. As a result I am sometimes in the dark about which species or cultivars behave badly. It would be a great tool for identifying problematic plants. In addition, we would have recommendations on the best methods for removal or control of those plants. Please consider adding this important forum!

I'm with you, daisyave.

Staci,

I was simply responding to Terry's final statement in her post "However, if there are other ideas on how to go about suggesting and discussing new forum ideas that will keep the peace, I'd be happy to hear them and I think Dave would, too."....nothing more, nothing less...... so I a bit confused as to why you are directing your post and comments to me.

Except for the bickering, I felt there is nothing wrong with asking for a forum openly, this way others can see, give their opinions on how they feel about such a subject just like the one for Texas was open discussion, We are turned down, and so be it, and I know I am being respectfull to all involved here, and now I know of other forums and chats I was ignorant about, so it did help me learn something I did'nt know. Please can we stop the putdowns, and just talk about the subject at hand. I am a pretty new member, and hope to become an old one over time, like I said this is the best one around. Why should questions like these be private, We're adults, let's move on, and let this lie low for awhile, let tempers cool, and revisit at a later date if need be. Your fellow gardener, Annie

No Baa, you weren't discourteous in that thread you posted a link to above. I remembered your post over there and assumed you were projecting that over here and that you were interjecting to impose organic gardening beliefs upon me... need I say any more. It appears I am most definitely glad I apologized to you as you didn't even recall having posted over there in that Tree Of Heaven thread. Still wanna know what Garlon and Tordon are? And, this time I am teasing with you.

Hi Terry, you mentioned you would be happy to hear about "new forum ideas that will keep the peace". How about a basic gardening forum such as that mentioned by Baa in his/her original post here where he/she simply stated Invasive Exotics would be ok? I guess just plain old Invasive Exotic Species. Skip the North American and skip the Plants so everybody could jump in and then Baa would have an area to address his/her concerns as mentioned above when he/she stated, "I'm very keen on this subject, International Trading holds a recent thread from me where I suggested we try to find the information on what is restricted or prohibited in our respective regions and post it up to help avoid potential problems with customs and the environment. For what it's worth, it attracted only one other poster and this was all prior to these discussions. A number of older threads I've posted to are regarding environmentally damaging species." Baa's really right though as over in Garden Foes; the vast majority of the threads are about insects, mammals, or diseases.

Maybe if it attracts a lot of people, the forum could be broken down in the future.

For the record, I don't mind debate when people openly discuss how they feel but I do not appreciate filthy dirty language or sexually explicit remarks. I see none of that anywhere where we are.

I was responding to your post at 12:06 - first paragraph. You seemed to not want anyone to put in reasons why the forum should not be created unless they were admins.

Thanks for the clarification Staci. Different content but pretty much same thing as far as my input goes. I didn't say anything at all in my 12:06 posts about admins or that I did or didn't want anything. I only made the comment that I didn't understand why some one that wasn't interested in the subject of a new forum would feel the need to keep up with reading additional forums. It has been my observation (and not necessarily just on this thread) that opposition to new forums often is based on it being vewed as an imposition by somehow requiring something of those that don't have a personal need or desire for a new forum....again...I meant nothing more and nothing less than what I said.

Oh gosh, I need to clarify. I was invited to join a new start up species specific plant forum a few months ago. The people were all at each other's throats. Nobody was backing down and nobody seemed to be able to say "sorry maybe I was wrong or too hasty or too whatever". They started an online chat where everyone seemed to go rabid simultaneously. I didn't like all the swearing and derrogatory remarks that appeared to be of a sexual nature to me so I just sort of lurked without posting hoping it would die out. I also didn't like all the so called experts jockeying for position over there all tripping to out do one another. Too many egos seemed to be in the equation. I didn't join in favor of subscribing here where I saw none of that ick. I am so grateful that doesn't go on over here. At least I have never seen it. I really like that as I have kids that I allow into this site to look at photos. I know I can walk away from the computer monitor and know that when I come back they will not have run into adult content. Makes me very happy to have that piece of mind.

I have 3 things to say.

1 Dave's Garden is not, strictly speaking, a democracy. It never has been. It is Dave's site, and he has been nice enough to let us play on it. The fee we pay does not give us any rights beyond the obvious use of the site and Dave, nice guy that he is, allows us to make suggestions. He is still responcible for it all and it is getting rather out of hand. If there is already a forum that isn't being used to the extent to which it could be, go forth and use it. If Dave and Terry say, we've decided, don't argue with them. They are the ones who have to do the work, and I can't even imagine the time it takes.

2 There are invasive plants. Strictly speaking, none are really alien. At least, to my knowlege, none from another planet have been found. There are restrctions, and in some cases this is to the good. In some cases, it becomes ridiculous, but that's my opinion and yes, I have done a good deal of research, reading and given great thought to this.

3 Sometimes, when told a decision has been made, it is best to accept it and go on.

Can We please let this discussion lie quiet? please, can We stop, I asked it above and am asking again, pleaese no more posting for now, let's stop trying to be the last one with an opinion

Okay, no problemo. I guess I took it wrong. :)

And Hanna I think most of us are all trying to discuss this like mature calm adults (though I worry about the day when none of us can). I also do not think it can do harm to try to suggest ulterior ways to present the information regarding invasives. I really see no reason to completely sensor the discussion - though that is just my opinion.

Then start a thread and talk about your invasives, as informative and not nailbiting! Let this pettiness end, it's getting redundant!

How many ways are there to get rid of unwanted plants, whether native or exotic?
1) Yank'em, 2) Poison them, 3) Use a flame thrower on'em, 4) Get some sheep or goats, 5) Use your imagination!
END OF DISCUSSION.