Member feedback ratings

As much as I HATE to do this, I am left with no choice. We must implement a member-to-member feedback rating system and I see no alternative.

Last week I banned 5 individual subscribed usernames from the site for extremely suspicious trading patterns. Then this morning, I have received two more reports of two different individuals who are suspicious in their trading.

The HumbleBumble (the most recent one banned) incident proved that Terry and I cannot possible police the trading forums alone, and a solution is needed. The solution is a feedback system that can be used to both give the thumbs up to excellent traders (which most are) and the thumbs down to the bad traders (which we get a few each year).

It'll be eBay style and you'll get up to 80 characters to make your case. Bad traders will soon be run out of town on a rail and the good traders will be happy to have all the good ratings with their username.

I see no other way to keep trading clean and happy while punishing and preventing bad traders from continuing to abuse our members.

dave

So does this mean that people who trade very little look "bad"? I'm not suggesting this is a bad idea, merely asking a question ....

No, it means that members who constantly rip people off over and over again will be thwarted early. Prospective traders can be checked out and when you see that their feedback is littered with problems you avoid them.

Folks that have little or no feedback mean that they have little or no feedback and you proceed with caution (or not at all, whatever. At least the control is yours)

dave

Dave...I don't trade but just wondering...will there be a place for the "accused" to have a rebuttal...as in "my computer has been down and I couldn't get my list"? Jo

cool, Dave. This has been discussed before, and I was in favor of it then as well as now. It's sad that it has gotten to this points, tho.

Is this going to be tied to the trade tracker, or a stand alone thing?

Cheri'

I'm sorry to hear that people just can't behave properly, always a bad apple etc.

On a personal note which might be peculiar to international traders, I've traded many times in the past and a number of members who have been receiving free or traded seeds and just don't (or won't) understand the length of time airmail takes, I've had a number of complaining emails that seed hasn't arrived after just 2 days of posting despite me always saying it takes anywhere between 4 to 10 days on average, sometimes longer, occasionally mail never arrives and it's been destroyed at customs. Many do understand and are perfectly polite and kind, others are just too much for me to deal with especially now with the threat of bad feedback for something that is not within my control.

Will there be a council so that should something happen outside of the senders control, feedback can be removed or adjusted at the admins say so? In the UK we can request a certificate of posting that the cashier checks and stamps so posting can be proved, I'm sure we're not unique in that, doesn't help when the wrong seeds are sent though.

I fully understand the need for this kind of system, it's a shame that it has to come to this because a few people can't behave with the spirit of the site in mind.

Dave thanks for sending these people off with a flea in their ear, I'm sorry you, Trish and Terry have to deal with them.

Hi Baa,

The feedback system, like all other aspects of DG, will be controllable by the admins. The same standards that apply in our forums, will apply in the feedback system.

Also, members are given the option to post a rebuttal to any feedback left for them. So, folks that complain about not receiving seeds can receive a rebuttal of "I did the best I could, etc".

Another quick note: this isn't a rating system as complete as the watchdog. There will be no top 20 and the rating percentages won't appear anywhere on the site. We're not trying to build seniority or exclaim how great we all are. It's an early warning system to prevent the kind of garbage that has been increasing in the past couple weeks.

There are bad traders here at DG right now and this system will make it very uncomfortable for those traders to exist. They'll be better off at Gardenweb and other places that don't have a smart system designed to handle this problem.

As you all know, protecting DGers is my #1 priority and I hate purloining.

Dave

Thanks Dave :)

As you'll know, it's rare I actually trade these days but it's good to know I can appeal if anything goes wrong!

For those who might be thinking it's only a few seeds, what does it matter, those who aquire falsely not only steal seeds but respect, trust and morale so they not only steal from one member but all of us as a community.

THANK YOU. I feel that this has been a long time coming.

In fact, I have someone right now who seems to be (though I hope I am wrong) dragging their feet about sending their end of a trade. This certainly gives me options.

Edited to ask: What about the inevitable retaliatory feedback?

This message was edited Aug 16, 2004 10:17 AM

Rebuttals are build in. You can give a public response to any feedback left by you.

Indashade I've already left you feedback. Give it a try.

dave

Wow - I'm not exactly for this... but not really opposed either. It's too bad it has come to this but I spose the bigger DG gets, the more often we'll run across "bad apples".

I don't trade a lot anymore either but I do spend a lot of time sending stuff out. I'm not sure I like the idea of having to sit down and look up every person that sent me a couple of stamps for some seeds. Plants are kind of an iffy thing to send through the mail. Even our best packing efforts don't always insure that plants will arrive alive & healthy.... a lot of times it has nothing to do with the senders efforts. Some plants just don't ship well & there's always the PO that can cause problems with mail delays, lost packages, and leaving our boxes out in the hot sun.

I think most people will be considerate of their trading partners and understand any mishaps that were beyond control... but there are always people that aren't happy with what you send... no matter what. I've seen people even complain about the amount of postage it cost to get their free plants. I hope that a feedback system doesn't end up being a babysitting tool that you have to monitor constantly. ....

Got a question... does a trade have to materialize on the trading forum to qualify for feedback? I know many people do their trading quietly through private e-mails amoung friends. Can they... and should they leaves feedback for each other if the trade didn't take place out in the publics eye?

Dave -

The same question came to mind that poppysue raised. Is this new feedback system applicable to a casual trade arranged within a thread between members?

Also, what is a "trade" and where is it recorded as to what was to be traded and what postage costs were involved and what time-frame was agreed upon?

You and I have as yet to "trade" anything. Can I leave you feedback? Can you leave me feedback? If so, then it could evolve as a place for personal vendettas to be played out. (That's the way it was on Ebay many years ago, when a user could leave feedback even when not involved in an actual transaction with another member.)

Sad day and sounds like a big bucket of worms.

Dave ..

In regard to the posts .. RE: "does a trade have to materialize on the trading forum to qualify for feedback? I know many people do their trading quietly through private e-mails amoung friends. "

Altho' I've not traded anything of yet .. I have certainly been giving consideration to the idea .. However, just such as the scenarios, as what Happenstance and Poppysue have raised ... could, and would ... inevitably, be an issue !!

Surely, you guys will require that such trades/agreements would/should materialize within DGs trading forum .. along with 'qualifying' for any consequential feedback there of?
Any/all others that take place between persons outside of DG .. should indeed remain completely outside of DG !!?? What may be agreed/argued outside, should remain so. Certainly would seem to make for much better distinction and 'monitoring' of such, by DG .. and total elimination of any 'legal' issues that may would arise also ...

If rules/regulations are not already fully discussed and in place - - then it seems it should be fully addressed well prior to the implementation of [a member-to-member feedback rating system]. Especially so, in order to prevent any possible legal repercussions that may befall DG ...

- Magpye

I think if we all act according to how we want to be treated, with maturity and so on, that any negative feedback (in most cases) can be dealt with responsivley(sp?).

sorry theres more I wanted to say but couldnt put it into words that made sense. Blonding today, sorry.

I like it, even tho I have a couple trades on the slow side on my end, I have also given an explanation of why to the traders and hope they understand that Im not trying to short change them. I think as long as the lines of communication stay open(with the maturity mentioned above) it should all turn out ok.

Oh my word....guess I better get all my trades organized.

that makes two of us!

Cheri'

Luckily most of mine are seeds or bulbs that aren't ready to dig. I do have a plant or two that I'm delinquent on sending. *sigh*

Good idea! As a Newbie who has yet to trade anything I wondered about possible issues... It is SO incredible to have a site of people to trade with when you consider the number of people here. Knowing I have plants easy to divide, seeds, etc. that I could give to someone as opposed to their having to buy them.. -- and vice versa! It's an exciting thing for a gardener esp. when the people at the site seem to be just as in love with gardening as I am! By the way - got my trade list filled out this weekend HINT HINT!!!

Thanks Dave!

Ignorant question here, but what is a "suspicious trading pattern"?

Does that mean that people were asking for and receiving plants but providing nothing in return? If so, I don't understand why they would do that. Just to get a couple of free plants?

I think I may be missing something here. Can someone help clarify this? Thanks!

Jean

I have the same question along the lines of Poppysue and Candy. I have had someone offer me cuttings of something I admired in non-trading related forums, which they sent for postage returned. Could I leave feedback for that?

Thank you Dave. I do think this has been a long time in coming, and will stop new folks from taking advantage, or at least make them stop and think about it before they do.

It's sad we have to do this but I think it protects us all.

And where will this feedback be? ie, where can we access it? Please don't tell me every subscriber will have a feedback number after their name in all posts.

Darius, if you click on your name, it's the 4th link under actions.

Dave,
I think it is a great idea, even though I trade very little.
Thanks for all your efforts at making DG's one of the best places for gardening on the internet.

MsC

Thanks, BT.

Hey.. how'd feedback on my page get listed so quickly? You just started this!!

It is sad that this is necessary, but I have been warned repeatedly about a few folks that apparently have routinely failed to keep up their end of a trade. All of my trades have been more than satisfactory with the majority of folks giving more than promised. However, it would be good to have a way to identify folks that take advantage of the trusting and generous spirit of 99.9% of the Daves Garden members.

If members have a way to post a response to the ratings, it should become obvious if someone has a personal emergency that delays honoring a trade as opposed to an established pattern of poor trading practices.

Thank you Dave, sorry that it is necessary but as the group grows so do the problems.

To me I would only give a NEGATIVE to someone who:

did not send what they said they would
did not send it when they said they would
and did not respond to emails with plausible explanations.

You can tell if someone has stiffed you. Also, I would really hesitate to give anyone a negative rating unless I was sure it was deserved.

charlotte

I'm looking at my trade tracker (sadly unused since spring . . . )and find my self reluctant to leave bad feedback, even when it's richly deserved. I don't see a way to change feedback if things change (like you can do at the GWD). That would be nice . . .

Cheri'

Dave,

As awesome as this site and system is set up, this particular feedback system still doesn't completely prevent abuse, and could cause even more.

It looks like anyone can enter a feedback message even if there has been no trade. I wouldn't want feedback linked to my Trade Tracker because I also have reminders in it that will stay there until next season. Whether the feedback is good or bad, this could lead to yet another form of abuse. If there is no original trade, how would a person who got bad feedback prove otherwise?

What about including the ability to let us see the feedback that the member left for others? On ebay, this has helped me get a feel for whether a bad reference might have been retaliation, or might have been left by a chronic whiner, etc.

Can this also be used for coop participants/coordinators? Should it be?

Makes me not want to do any more trading till all the undoubted problems get ironed out.....
I am an honest person, but ya know things happen and I would hate to see peoples reputations including mine get damaged for events beyond their controll.
There have been 'things' happen in my life and my garden that have disrupted trades.....it would have been very easy for someone to have written a negative bit of feedback on me. Were these things my fault?, No. Do I have controll over how other people will react to these changes in plans?, No.
There are people right now I 'could' leave negative or at best neutral feedback on.....will I, No
At this stage I will only leave positive feedback...........................................

I would agree that a few things need to be addressed with the ratings:

1) Change feedback. Users should be able to update (not erase) feedback including ratings (a la the GWD.) I've also suggested that feedback should be mandatory. If you're going to leave a rating for someone, I think it needs to be in context.

2) See all feedback left by a particular user from their member page (again, like the GWD - it'd be nice to know if someone is generally positive, but had to leave a negative for one person, or if they're a chronic naysayer.)

3) I'm not seeing the reasoning behind excluding trades outside of DG, and here's why: If I'm a trading disaster from another site, looking for a soft place to land, I can trade quietly/on-the-sly with several DG members who don't realize for a looong time that they're not the only one who got a "pig-in-a-poke" from me. However, if others who trade on other sites (or who traded with me "offline") can use the ratings as an early warning system, I'm not so likely to try my shenanigans here. (please excuse my mixed metaphor concoction!)

If a bad trader skips from one site to another, is it typical to bring their bad username with them? And would it matter if they're subscribers or not?

After all these years, I think there are too many things I don't know enough about regarding what non-subscribers can and cannot do. I'm always logged in, so I'm always in my own little world as far as that goes. I'm surprised that non-subscribers can participate in the feedback system. This makes me think of other possible problems - for both parties - that I'd have to think about after I knew more about what non-subscribers can do.

I'm relatively new here too. I don't have anything to trade...at least not of any consequence. My experience so far has been on offers for SASE or Postage...and even a couple of "gifts" from wonderful members. It's a shame that there will always be those who feel they *must* take advantage of others...but such is life, I suppose.

I hope that someday I'll be able to take part in the occasional trade, but until that time I just have to say 'thanks' to Dave and "company" for providing a wonderful place to learn and share.

~julie~

well, I just left negative feedback for someone who was a subscriber for a very short time, apparently. I was surprized to see that she is not a subscriber anymore, since I only trade with subcribed members. This is the only negative feedback that I've left. And my feedback is her only feedback, so far.

I wonder what happened? Did she get banned? Did she only subscribe long enough to rip me off? LOL!

Anyway, with the short subscriptions available, I think you have to be able to leave feedback for folks who are no longer subscribed . . . what's to stop someone from buying a short subscription every spring, for the purpose of ripping and running?

I would like to see the feedback tied to the trade tracker, or something, tho.

Cheri'

There is a big difference between unforeseen "things happening" and setting up five or more aliases for trading or continuing to post that you have things for trade but ignoring emails from people wondering where their trades are. In other words, setting out to be DELIBERATELY dishonest is quite another story! Dishonest traders get away with this over on Gardenweb because no one is allowed to expose them or say anything bad about them. They get to continue their dirty work right under everyone's nose, and that's wrong.

There has never been a time that I can think of on DG where the members have not been anything but totally supportive and understanding when someone has had a real life difficulty that prevented them from meeting their trade obligations right away.

If you run into difficulty, all it takes is a well placed e-mail or some form of communication to another member of DG or Dave himself, and give the message to "pass it on." Everyone understands that things happen. I just had Lasik eye surgery and couldn't focus on the computer screen for two days. I sent Melissa_Ohio and e-mail and asked her to pass the message on in the Daylily forum and she did.

If you're not organized and you tend to take a long time to send things out, this could be the beginning of a whole new you! And that's a GOOD thing, right?

There will always be those who want to abuse these kinds of feedback systems due to personal vendettas, etc, but I honestly believe the good that this system will bring will outweigh any bad. The only people who are REALLY going to hate this type of feedback are those who will be exposed for what they really are.

We need to quit saying "what if" and give this a try. If we run into a snag, we can do what we've always done and talk about it until we fix it.

As a relatively new trader (but a member since 2002), I am relieved to see this system put into place, especially after recent events. I was beginning to wonder how I could know with whom I could freely trade - and how to identify the ones to side-step. Those who enjoy trading and are honest and generous have nothing to fear from this system. There are details to be worked out but I believe it will benefit everyone.

Another growing pain of this great website.

Dave im sure it will help out bunches-TY

daves dah MAN!!!!
if there is ever anything i can do to help out-just hollar! :)

I love this new system! What another great quality of DG!

I really think this will help many people!

Good goin'!

I find myself sending out more plants for postage than I do trades, Now my question is. can just anyone leave feedback with you at anytime? Or is it being done like ebay? where you actually have to buy from that person to be able to leave feedback?

ely?