Trade Lists...

Please forgive me for having a "berating" dissenting opinion. I'm only sitting on the other side of the court room, suggesting what the opposition might be feeling towards a "complete/not complete" system.

I hardly ever trade, and don't intend on making a habit of trading. Knowing that anytime I might make a mistake someone could mark me as "not complete" trader will keep me away from ever wanting to trade.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Angelsong.

My life is topsy turvy and I could get zapped away for weeks at a time with little or no warning. But I'm not afraid to arrange trades with DG members because I know that if something goes wrong, I will make every attempt to stay in touch, I will not be ignoring their posts and emails while arranging new trades. I won't engage in the behavior that dishonest traders do, because I'm not a dishonest trader.

I'll let people know by whatever means is available what my status is, (and I let them know my potential status when the trade is set up). I'll make arrangements to honor my trade (and then some) at a later date. And I would expect my trades to be left as incomplete until they were completed, even if that took a long time. It would be a reminder to me not to try to set up further trades, when I can't complete the ones I've started. After all, my life, my errors, my mistakes are my responsibility, not some gardener who has honored their part of a trade.

I believe these thoughtful, insightful DG gardeners can tell the difference between 'life happens' and dishonesty. I also don't think any of these folks are going to be wanting to put that status on anyone if they are not sure it's a result of dishonesty. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I think.

I wouldn't be afraid to set up a trade with you, just because you've never traded.

Cheri'

There is a world of difference between making a mistake and deliberately setting out to rip someone off. That should be obvious.

No system is going to be perfect, but we need to try ~something~ to keep things fair. I just hate that these dishonest traders get away with their deceptions because no one wants to be the bad guy and speak up.

I know of an instance where someone didn't receive what was promised in a trade...you know how many people sent her items to make up for the person that cheated her?? SEVERAL!! I have never traded..oPPS...yes I did.. I traded some devils claw for someone to make baksets with for a BEAUTIFUL blown glass pendant. I feel I got the better deal...but it was our deal. I wear the pendant a lot.

So...things usually work out in the end. Jo

roadrunner,
'things working out in the end' for the honest trader is a wonderful thing! I'm all for that, I've seen it happen, and if I had blueberry plants, I would have made 'things work out' for another honest trader that got shafted.

That said, it doesn't change the fact that the dishonest trader is still lurking, unbeknownst to most. What about the next honest trader that gets taken? Don't we owe it to him/her to issue some sort of warning? OK maybe we don't 'owe' it, but isn't it the right thing to do?

I would much prefer not to be taken advantage of than to get shafted on a trade and have my fellow gardeners make it up.

And you made a great trade! That's the best kind, when both parties feel like they got the better end of the deal.

Cheri'

I don't know if someone has posted this idea or not since I have not read everyone....I know tradeing can go bad and there is a really heated one going on right now on one of the threads I started.....so someone should come up with something and I was thinking....maybe we could come up with the same type system e-bay has with the stars and then the feed back.......It seems to work really will for them and the buyers and sellers do post feed back.....whatch think.... :o)

I would have to say I'm not in favor of a full-blown rating system, a la eBay. From an administrative point of view, it's not a pleasant prospect: eBay has been sued numerous times (they've won, but they still had to pay to defend their position); sellers and buyers have sued each other over ratings/defamation issues; and if you visit the site, there are pages upon pages of disclaimers and guidelines about their ratings, and how to report abuse.

That's why I keep going back to the original idea raised on this thread, which is a request for a simple way for traders to see whether another person has completed most of their trades before they engage in a transaction with them.

If anyone can't enter into a trade fully expecting to complete it satisfactorily, they should refrain from trading. The occasional mishap isn't likely to keep me from trading with someone, but a history of several unfulfilled trades would make me think twice.

From an administrator's viewpoint, it is very difficult to deal with chronic "problem traders" unless we know about it AND we hear from enough different sources to determine it wasn't a one-time "he said/she said" misunderstanding, which is virtually impossible for us to weigh in on. By the time we can feel fairly certain we should intervene, there are a lot of people who have been taken advantage of.

Cheri, I agree with you. If the only way to put an end to this is to name names then name names. I feel like Melissa got burned twice and it isn't fair. Since the vast majority of trades go well, a tracking system seems like overkill to me.

Can we all at least agree that dishonest traders exist?

If we can, then we should address what can be done to protect the rest of us. Terry's idea seems like a good middle of the road, no finger pointing method. How technically feasible it is and how administratively acceptable it is, I don't know.

But, theoretically, what could be the objection, from a trader's point of view, to letting the person that you are trading with mark your end of the trade complete? Especially if you get to do the same to his/hers. If you don't trust the person to follow thru, why are you trading with him/her?

And all you end up with is :
Trades completed =x
Trades pending =y
(and maybe Trades overdue =z?)

No one gets to write anything nasty about you. No one is judging the quality of the trade, just if you sent it or not.

Terry, correct me if I'm wrong, but is that what you are suggesting?

Of course, no one could force you to use the feature, if it were offered. And if you got burned and you didn't use the tracker you wouldn't be any worse off than you are now under the current system.

OTOH, the rest of us could insist on using the tracker as a condition of the trade (once again, if it were offered). If you get burned then, you at least have the satisfaction that it is noted, somewhere. Other than that, nothing is changed from how it is now.

What am I missing?

g'nite, all.
Cheri'

I am a big recommender of the trade tracker, but I have become one of the worst at keeping mine current as I don't do many trades anymore. I think it would take a while for anyone, to get used to doing it.

I don't think it is fair to ask Dave or you Terry, to step in on every complaint - as you say many may be just a one time goof up, or oversight. However, maybe there could be a "Contact" place, where complaints could be registered and just recognized as "Noted". Then, when a certain number of complaints is reached (eg.3)about the same person, a discipline warning could be sent - with any more complaints, they should be banned, at least for a certain time, like on Parole or probation. I think Dave already has some similar guidelines for other infringments.

I have found that most of these problems work themselves out, we are not children, but it is unfair that there seem to be a few parasites around. I can think of 3-4 off hand, but with a population of over 65,000, that is to be expected. Over all, we have a wonderful group - I have made more good friends here than I ever expected was possible.

Cheri' you described it exactly as I envision it. On the "public view" side of your tradetracker, there would not be any names of who you traded with, or whose trades were not marked completed - just a tally of the status of your trades.

It would certainly prompt me to keep my tradetracker updated, and check up via email with anyone who didn't check in as receiving their end of the trade.

From the opposing side, I can see some potential downfalls:

1) There may be those who judge a new trader harshly, a bit like the "old days" when getting your first credit card was very difficult: "You don't have any credit? Then we're not giving you a credit card." A frustrating conundrum. However, as I stated earlier, I believe that most of the traders in the world will give a new member the benefit of the doubt, so the risk of this is fairly low.

2) Some people don't like the structure of the tradetracker. So they may refuse to use it. So be it - they may find that some people are reluctant to trade with them if they don't. This would definitely be a case where "majority will rule" on whether or not the Tradetracker becomes a widely-used tool among traders.

3) An ornery trader might refuse to mark the trade as received, even though it was. An absurd and remote possibility? Yes, but it IS a possibility - some people will find a way to wreak havoc, no matter what.

4) If someone fails to send out several trades due to a personal emergency, etc., they may find themselves with a tarnished reputation that haunts them for a long time, especially if that information hangs out there ad infinitum. Again, it's a remote possibility, and something we'd need to address, either by allowing old mishaps to eventually roll off the summary, or allow the trader to post a note explaining the situation, and pointing out it is in the past.

Azalea, I like your idea, too - the only problem is we'd have to somehow compile the "complaint" notes in a log, and then look for the "common denominator" (aka bad trader.) Whereas a "public view" of everyone's Tradetracker would create a self-policing tool, with members given enough information to form opinions about one another.

Quite honestly, we deal with VERY few trading problems overall. Perhaps it's because many of them go unreported. I'd like to think it's because the vast majority of traders are honest and dependable. If so, this whole idea may arguably be overkill, but part of what drew me to it was that it might make one of our DG tools more useful to (and used by) more members. And it would make the DG trading forums a less hospitable environment for those who are looking for some "easy marks" to prey upon.

Maybe a good first step would be a listing of some guidelines to successful trading. Could include a list of 'red flags' to watch out for and other hints. This is a seperate issue, but with the same goal of more completed and satisfactory trades.

As far as solving the problem of preventing people who do not even intend to complete trades from doing this on a regular basis, how about a slight reworking of the Mail Call Forum? Use it to set up trades, announce when they are mailed, and when they are received. Trades seem to be much more timely and generous when the results are going to be published publicly- It could be done in a non-judgmental manner, but if a trade were uncompleted it would be so noted.

Just some thoughts...

Pardancanda - The idea of reworking Mail Call is one that I like. This way, folks that want to use the system can, and those that choose not to won't run a risk of being "black-balled" for not trading regularly, or having the occasional mishap.

Just me 2 cents worth... I have sent out 108 packages in the past few weeks.(Free Irises,Free Tigerlilies, Free Siberian Irises, misc. Trades of Daylilies) ..Only 6 people have not sent plants or postage. And the ones who sent Iris roots/ bulbs/daylilies were simply more generous than I could ever ask! I hope that everyone feels they got good roots & plants from me!

And lets face it, I'm sending extras. If I send something really important (indashade!) that I love, I would only do it to someone I trust.

Dishonest people exist, but is it worth all the extra complications? I like the idea of lisitng good traders on my Member page. I don't like sending negative feedback.
Heck, this is supposed to be fun, not a business!

I think there are a lot of good ideas here, and a lot of valid points have been made. Reading through, I am thinking that Dave shouldn't be burdened with the responsibility of having to "parent" or baby-sit our trades, he does enough for us as it is. I haven't traded a whole lot, but I realize going in that by participating in trades/co-ops, that some will work out well for me, some won't, that's just the way it goes. I recently received some very empty seed pods, but you know, it's just gonna happen sometimes. Deliberately taking advantage is another story..I tend to scan the mail-call forum to get an indication of the members it would be "safe" to share with. To me, a happy "thank you" from one member to another is great feedback.

What it comes down to for me is this: 99% of my trades are fantastic and generous. The other few are people who may, through no fault of their own, have been unable to complete the trade, or even send a message to advise of a delay.

However, there is the rare event when there is a person who deliberately sets out to rip off as many people as possible. That is frustrating, and even more so if someone new to trading here is victim of this more than once.

I do agree with Wanda, it is supposed to be FUN! (Oh yeah, Wanda sent me a package that really made my day, too! A generous assortment of beautiful plants, long on my wish list!!)

After thinking this over while I was supposed to be working today...

How about the idea I mentioned earlier, where we work together to put a FAQ page about how to set up successful trades, and red flags of trades we might wish to avoid?

The first hint which I feel really rules out a lot of bad trades is to deal ONLY with SUBSCRIBED members. This may mean making an inital post, then under it a second one with more detail visible only to subscribed members. (Unsubscribed people can read the first post of a thread, then contact you). Or, you can check the member list; remember to click on the option of seeing "subscribed members only"!

Paid subscribers don't guarantee you that you'll get your trades...

I agree, Melissa, but it seemed like a place to start. But come to think of it, the few incompleted trades I know of right now are subscribed members... I will say this, my rate of successful trades has been much better here than on any of the other sites.

Dave is being Solomon-like in his wisdom here, letting us toss this around before posting his thoughts...

One of my incomplete trades has been a subscriber for a year, and has never started a single post.... How many other people have been taken advantage of?

Joining the site is a small price compared the amount of plants one could receive. This person in particular, didn't post on the board, but emailed me privately to set up the trade... just makes me wonder how many others... WHICH is the biggest reason I'd like to see the Trades Complete/Pending/Unknown...

question? why don't those who notice someone who has stiffed them on a trade, and notice they are trying to trade with someone else, contact that person and tell them what happened to you? then it is up to them, as to wether they want to continue this trade or not. if it is too late and the trade has been sent, at least they know what to expect.
if you have never traded with someone, why not send an e-mail to a dg member and ask them of there experience with this person.
why don't folks notify terry about this "bad" trader? either she is not hearing about these folks or there are not that many to make this into a big issue here.

i guess i'm having a hard time understanding why this has to be made into a necessary thing for members to do, if they want to trade with others.
i would like to see some personal responsability taken by folks, rather than dg being made into a "police state".

of all the trades and co-ops i have participated in over the years, the # is minimal that haven't followed through. i make a note to myself in my trade tracker not to trade with them again.
i have been given far more than i have received here at dave's. wether in trades, information or good-will.
i would hate to see dg turned into a "police state". i subscribe at dg for many reasons and one is the family friendly goodwill of the members. in every family there are members that are devious and corrupt, and in time everyone knows who they are.
i have always lived by the golden rule "do unto others as you would have others do unto you". i would hope to think that i would hear from another dg member if they thought i was going to be harmed in a trade, co-op ect. just like i would let cousin joe know that my brother's wife's sisters cousin had not sent me the corn seeds she was suppose too. :)
personal responsability rather than public responsability. my two cents worth here.

Gosh this discussion sure is taking the wind outta my sails about this site. If you get burned in a trade then simply don't trade with that person anymore. I agree with whoever said let's stick to the Christian priniciples of DG. Giving, sharing, turn the other cheek. It would seem to me that there is at least one bad trader out there that many of you have referred to in this and the "Delicate Subject..." post. Doesn't that mean that the bad trader is identified albeit not publicly. Do we really wish to start casting out stones? Not me. Live and learn. DG is such a friendly down-to-earth, neighborly site....I hate to see it become commercialized with rating systems and feedback on traders. Brenda

This conversation/debate has taken place numerous times before. And as you can guess by the lack of a rating system, it has always concluded that any system would cause more hard feelings than it's worth, and the subject is dropped.

Before the idea discourages anyone too much, think of it this way: Dave's Garden is a nice "Mayberry RFD" kind of online community, with members who are friendly, honest, and would give you the shirt off their backs, not to mention share a cup of sugar (or seeds) with a neighbor who asks to "borrow" some.

Then a few burglaries take place, and unfortunately, Andy and Barney (sigh - does that mean I'm Barney in this analogy???) can't catch the thieves in the act, so a "neighborhood watch" idea surfaces. That's not necessarily a bad thing, nor does it mean that the concerned citizens are greedy, seed-hoarding folks who have suddenly turned stingy and suspicious ;o)

It just means they are frustrated because they are pretty sure the burglars are continuing to stealthily rob their neighbors, some of whom quietly tolerate the occasional break-ins. But when the scope of the problem is brought to light, a lot of the citizens would like to find a way to encourage the burglars to move on to another town.

Well "Barney", maybe it's time for a neighborhood watch.

Terry, that was a terrific analogy.

Davena

It is relatively easy to keep a list of bad traders. If someone tells me of another, privately, I will add it to the list. I have been very fortunate here at Dave's; the bad trades can be counted on one hand. I understand the possibility of a one way trade. Hey, this is part of life; I really don't want rules and regulations. The opportunity to trade here is very much appreciated; the traders are tops!

Brilliant analogy, Terry/Barney! I'm waiting for Aunt Bea to call us in for pie...

If Terry is Barney, who is Opie?

hehehehe, I don't know. Dave looks young enough to be Opie, but in this twisted casting call, he MUST be Andy, just for continuity's sake.

As for me, I'm still trying to find the shirt that I left my lone bullet in the pocket - it's probably in the washing machine again :o)

Terry, I just want you to know how much I appreciate all of your hard work (as well as Dave's and Trish's) on this site. It truly is a gift you all give us. Thank you. Now go get that bullet ~ I think I hear it in the drier, going "kerplink, kerplink!"

Maybe we'll appoint Horseshoe as Opie...both as cute as a bug in a rug! Jo

I use my trade-tracker for trades, but also for keeping notes about future trades or trades in progress. For examples,if I plan on contacting someone in spring, or if I send something now but wait until spring to receive something in return because it's too late in my season to plant, or if, in the middle of winter, I discuss a possible spring trade with someone, those I'd have marked as incomplete trades but they're not. If the trade-tracker were to be used for this, would I still be able to do that?

I like the idea of just using the Mail-Call forum as long as a bad trade wouldn't turn into a public argument. It might be pretty hard to stop a discussion about a bad trade, and I can imagine entire threads just being removed, which would serve no purpose.

Keeping names of good traders on their member pages sounds like another good possibility. If I want to trade with someone and they ask for references, I could tell him or her whose member page to check for my name. But I can see how even that could lead to bad feelings if the trade was complete but not both parties were satisfied.

I'm really having a very hard time with how I feel about this so it's hard to sort my thoughts about it. I'm just not crazy about a rating system here. I think my problem is specifically related to why I subscribe, and trading is only one reason. I hate to think we need a rating system, but I know it's wrong that someone could subscribe to prey on trusting people with no consequences.

Good thoughts, Cheryl. I think the main thrust of the 'rating system' would be to show patterns of any persons who simple set up trades with a number of people, cease communication, and never send anything.

I have been a member here for 4 months and have had one trade go bad. I never did receive what was promised. That may not sound like a lot but I have only made 3 or 4 trades since I usually get plants and seeds for postage and also have been involved in many co-ops.I have a very new garden and usually don't have much to trade.

I always email the person I am dealing with that the plants/seeds have arrived but I dont use mail-call ( I will from now on)I agree there should be some kind of tracking system. I like the trades pending- completed and overdue idea, as long as it includes co-ops and sase's ! lol ! I am happy to say that the majority of the people I have met here are most generous and helpful. What I dont want to happen is a forum where anyone is "outed" so to speak. That could get truly nasty and that is not what we are here for. I appreciate each of you and look forward to getting to know many of you better.

I use the trade tracker, and many various other things to keep me on my toes. I put SASEs and even freebies in the tracker, so I can try to keep it straight. I never thought to use it for co-ops. I know I'm a ditz sometimes, so I do everything to try not to mess up. Also, this way I can look back and be reminded who sent me that wonderful (hosta, daylily, vine ...) and refused to accept even postage.

When I get a (package, postage, thank you ...) I mark it in my tracker, send an email and post in Mail Call. But most of my Mail Call Posts go un-answered, so I'd slacked on that a bit. I intend to resume that practice.

If we are not going to have a method of reporting our trades I would really encourage everyone to post in Mail Call.

I still can't see how tracking pending, complete and overdue trades per trader could be bad ... but I'll go along with whatever the majority and Dave want.

Cheri'

I don't understand how mail call is going to help if we haven't gotten any mail? :-)It would be fine for trades that go the way they're supposed to, but, the purpose of the post was some way of knowing when someone does NOT complete their trades... and just to clarify, I am not asking for a "feedback" system. In the original post, I said "NOT" a feedback system. I hate to keep sounding like a broken record, but it seems like it keeps getting turned back to a feedback or a rating system.

Just Yes/No did they send it or did they not. With an unknown in there so that if the package does come through, the unknown can be changed to a "complete"

As far as mailcall and not getting packages,
Do I post, Hey Sundry**, I'd love to say thank you for the package, but it's been 3 months, and I've yet to receive it? I don't think that anyone wants to intentionally embarrass someone else, I know I certainly do not.

**Sundry was just used as an example here!

I have a trade list, but I've never used the Trade Tracker. I'll have to go back and give it a try. Once I posted my trade list, I got lots of responses, and since this spring have sent out over 80 mailings of seeds. Probably 2/3 were mailed out free and 1/3 were trades. By not requiring SASE, I owed nothing, but was only giving. I'm more concerned about being late or missing a promised trade or mailing than being "stiffed" (old waitress term) by the other party.

I agree with Baa that I should never trade more than I am willing to lose. If I get hung up in the 'they can't get away with this' syndrom, I'm only upsetting myself unnecessarily. I was very prompt with trades this spring, but very tardy this summer when I became busy outside. My mistake was to agree to send seeds, even though I knew I was too busy. I will try to rectify that next summer or pull my trade list during that time.

Here's something I've been doing to help me make a decision about a trade. If someone emails me through Dave's, especially if they want many packets of seed for SASE, I usually check them out on their membership page. I look to see if they are subscribers, whether they have contributed to Dave's through the PDB, GWD, etc, or offered good info on threads and with photos.

If the requestor is a new, unsubscribed member, I usually send seeds anyway, but while corresponding, I recommend they subscribe. I think at least 5 people have done so. I think the subscription is so reasonable here (let's not get into a to-do about that one... this is only my opinion) that I don't mind spending money over the year sending seeds and spreading the word.

When it comes to sending live plants, I realize that can be quite expensive and disheartening if it doesn't work out. Not only might the other party not send, but some sent items can be poorly packaged or sent in such a way that they die before received. It's a real can of worms. Do we have a page that deals with the best ways to ship? Some folks who are new at trading may not have this info. They may not even understand the etiquet of seed trading... such as letting people know when they've mailed out or received trade items.

WZ

I agree with you entirely!

You know, the more I read this thread the more I'm really glad I'm not trading right now. Last year I had a pretty tough time with the postal system, although that has smoothed out now. Goodness me, an entire EU Round Robin went AWOL early this year (in my own country)... Fortunately, all the participants awaiting the package were very generous and understanding, something that should have been done in a month took nearly 4 months to complete. Imagine if those 14 people had me down as a 'No' trader or ran to the DG admin to complain about me!!! Doesn't bear thinking about...

I read through this whole thread . . . and my thought is this: If I was really concerned about entering a trade because of the value of my plants or any other reason -- I could simply ask the person for references on the last few people they traded with and follow through to make sure that person is legit. I usually just take a chance and hope for the best and don't send more than I can afford to loose . . . but if I was truly concerned, that is what I would do.

Here's the problem with mail call. I recently sent packages to 4 different members. I never found where they posted and not the first one emailed that they received them until I emailed them. I'm not scorning anyone here but only posting that we get busy or maybe our email is down, mine right now I can receive but can't reply, so things go wrong and it makes us look bad in the site of others. I have never been stuck on a trade. There are members that sent me packages without me asking and they paid the postage. Pebble, Jody, Calalily, Zamaluzza, and Iris that I can think of right now. I also received a coop from Dea that she wouldn't let me pay for. Also I know that there are a lot of members here that helps those that can't pay the dues to belong. As a matter of fact mine was paid last year by Carol7. I did send a package to one member last year and they quit posting and I never heard from them but it wasn't a trade. To me keeping track of people being good to me is printed here on my heart and I don't need a list. Just my thoughts.

When receiving something by mail my practice is to email the person immediately. Then the postage goes out to them within 24 hours. And when I have mailed to someone~If I have not heard from them ~ I just email and ask if they got it.

I would hope that all of you would tell ME if I missed something.

I'll help you remain accountable if you'll help me with my accountability.
Thank You