Starting seeds for 2013, Part 2

Since the topic is seed germination I have included a picture so that I can discuss my two very favorite seed germination methods. In front, the blue flower is Chia (Salvia hispanica), a former pre-European “pillar of civilization” crop, grown using my second favorite seed germination method, which is as follows:

1) Go to the nearest locally-owned health food store and buy 1 lb of seed.
2) Take half and mix it in a large bucket with powdered peat, sand or other friendly and inexpensive seeding media.
3) Wait until the day before it rains, then spread it in my grass-less lawn.
4) Eat the other half of the seeds.
5) Harvest half the new seeds for next year.

In the background is Arugula (Eruca sativa). This is a product of my very favorite germination method. It is pretty much identical to the method above except with the added step:

6) Enjoy the volunteers from the other half of the new seeds you did not collect.

See the little bee on the Chia? That is one of my Chia Pets.

Pam - I should have read the posts above more carefully Re: "Salty Coir". It just so happens I am out of coir and low on vermiculite, with plenty more seeds left to plant, so I am going to do the long drive today to restock. Tell ya what, I will take a brick of coir, soak it in distilled water, carefully filter the water through a coffee filter, then boil down the water and weigh the remaining total solids. That should put an upper bound on the salt content. I will report on the results in this forum. Personally I am doubtful that there is significant salt content but we shall see if that is a possibility.

I read about the problem of salt on a DG thread, but can't find it now. However, this is what I found out via Google (the link to the whole article is below the quote):

The Fundamentals of Coir (the good, the bad, and the ugly).

The coconut palm, unlike many other plants’, is a salt tolerant plant. What happens with salt tolerant plants’ is that they uptake salt and displace it to areas of the plant where the salt can do the least harm.
In the case of the coconut palm the salt is displaced to the coir – the very thing that we use as a growing media. This means coir can contain high levels of salt (sodium chloride), something which can prove toxic to many/most plants.
On top of this coir contains large amounts of potassium and quantities of other elements. What this means is that coir requires special treatment to ensure a premium quality hydroponic media product is supplied to the end user.

http://forum.grasscity.com/coco-coir/785201-coco-coir-read-important-info-2.html

If you've had no problems, maybe you're buying it from a good source. I liked it because it's compact before use and easy to hydrate, but If I have to rinse it repeatedly to flush the salt out it becomes just too much trouble. For me the whole point is to try to keep the mess down in a city apartment. The coir bricks I had left I mixed into soil in the garden.

Pam - Thank you for the information. A very interesting topic. I see that there has been a lot of research on coir vs. peat and coir has come up short in many comparisons. I have six new coir bricks for my seed germination operations, the brand is "Sunleaves", from Sri Lanka. I notice that they market some special coir cubes that are advertised as being "triple-washed" so very low salinity, but I am using their regular product. I find it rather alarming that they do not provide a measure of salinity for their products. However, the University of Utah did a study and they specifically mention that the Sunleaves product they used from Sri Lanka tested low conductivity (e.g. low salinity):
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf

I live only a few hundred yards from the ocean; I can hear the surf at night and see salt accumulation on my car windshield especially when the wind is onshore and waves are large. I have been growing sea purslane in my front yard for years so I am familiar with the idea of halophytes and how they can be used in phytoremediation of soil salinity. In the case of Coconut I believe the plant works more on rejecting salt than accumulating it in tissues, and I know qualitatively that coconut water from sources near the ocean are only slightly more salty that inland sources, but I do not have a good idea of the quantitative difference. I question the statements of the author from that link on grasscity.com who analyzed only one batch of coir and references none of the extensive scientific research on this topic. If Coconut was the type of plant that lives with excess salinity by storing excessive salt in its tissues (like sea purslane does) I would expect that the sodium salt content of coconut water would be much greater than the potassium salt content, as it is in seawater. In fact, the case is the opposite: coconut water has more potassium than sodium:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3115/2


The University of Utah Study mentioned above cites another scientific publications that found it was the extremely high potassium salt content of coir that was the problem (“...all coir products have extremely high K contents and low Calcium contents...”)

Now that you have mentioned this topic it is bothering me … I am pretty sure that grasscity.com person is just wrong and mixed-up about what the actual problem with coir really is. Hopefully I can investigate this further and get back to this forum with some hard data.

Thank you for bringing up this very important topic.

(Edit: grammar, clarity)

This message was edited Mar 22, 2013 8:45 PM

This message was edited Mar 22, 2013 8:48 PM

This message was edited Mar 22, 2013 8:51 PM

P.S. The coir-vermiculite mixture seems to agree with these several-month old Moringa oleifera seeds type PKM-1 from ECHO
http://www.echonet.org/content/100underutilized/760

50/50 coir-vermiculite in peat pots. I very definitely will be removing the peat pots soon because of past experience with Moringa species tendency for damping off.

Half of these were traded to a DG friend so we can compare germination notes directly.
Cheers!

When I first read about it I thought it explained what had gone wrong with some of my seedlings. Now I'm very curious to see what you are able to discover further.

Btw, I loooove your two favorite germination methods!

We cross-posted...

Maybe the 50% vermiculite makes the difference. It certainly has helped with the MG stuff I've been mixing it with.

Pam - Cross-posting, what a curious phenomenon!
I was wondering if expanding the coir in the vermiculite might make some difference ... the vermiculite latching onto the salt more tightly(?)

I'm thinking too maybe a lot of the plants I am going for are more salt-tolerant (no matter if we are talking K or Na salt). I certainly would never water my mango trees with water from either of my two wells ... the salt at 1-2 ppt would kill them. I don't think my macadamia trees like my well water either.

On the other hand, bananas, epazote, chia, arugula, amaranth all seem tolerant of my salty well-water.
Tomato plants just sprout in my yard ... from where I do not know ... neighbors plants and birds must be involved. I am not going for a conventional garden, that is for sure...

Awhile back I bought a Sper Scientific water quality meter, I only have the pH probes now since that is what I need to get started in tissue culture but maybe I will spring for the conductivity probe as well, then I can indirectly measure salt content.

If I can find out more I will definitely share!

Pam - After doing some further reading, it would seem that expanding the coir in dry vermiculite with boiling purified water likely tends to drive the salts out of the coir and into the vermiculite, where they become tightly bound and released more slowly. I was doing it this way to use the insulating properties of vermiculite to improve sterilization of the media, so this aspect was a lucky accident and may explain why I have not had some of the problems with coir that others have experienced.

This is just a basic property of vermiculite and also has its negative implications as explained in papers below.

A lot of the publicly-funded science literature is locked away by "scientific societies" run by the big publishing houses, but here is at least one easily obtained and easy-to-read reference that explains how it works:
"Potassium Fixation and Its Significance for California Crop Production"
http://www.ipni.net/publication/bettercrops.nsf/beagle?OpenAgent&d=352CE63CE5BE6D5C8525797C00795F37&f=Better%20Crops%202011-4%20p16.pdf

Another couple good and more technical papers,
"Factors Affecting Potassium Fixation and Cation Exchange Capacities of Soil Vermiculite Clays"
http://www.clays.org/journal/archive/volume%2018/18-3-127.pdf

"Cation exchange selectivity in mica and vermiculite"
http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM57/AM57_1823.pdf

Since this thread is on seed germination this is a good post to wrap up my part in the discussion of coir. I plan to look further and if I can find some more useful hard data that will be in a new thread.

It is a beautiful thread you started and I hope it continues with many other contributions ... very educational for me.
Thank you.

Instead of worrying about salt, etc, use fine peatmoss. If you want to cut down on moisture to prevent damping off, vermiculite is not what you want to use since it holds moisture. Perlite does not hold moisture and is a good substitute for sand althought it is lighter in weight.

Peatmoss and perlite is a great mix for cuttings. I have used it for years. I have also used perlite to lighten a potting a mix and provide excellent drainage.

If a good seed mix is used, coir is not needed.

My 2 cents.

On a lighter note -

I live on a barrier island, not much real soil here, just well-draining sand; calcic, alkaline, salty sand that becomes sodic and hydrophobic in bare patches when it dries out. I love fine peat as a soil amendment and I always keep an extra bale handy, and if coir doesn't work peat and vermiculite would be my second choice for seed germination. That is what I use when I am out of coir anyways, especially for the easy seeds. It is cheaper and easier. I also buy big bags of perlite that I use in a potting mix, unfortunately the grade is variable from small to large so that isn't good for smaller seeds. I save that for my pots.

If you have only 10 rare seeds and that is all until next year if ever then you go with what works. I shared what worked for me. As far as I am concerned the coir "salt problem" is hypothetical, when I say salt I am referring to potassium chloride - that is a fertilizer for most people but there is way too much chloride beachside so I rather stay away and use potassium nitrate. As for high levels of sodium chloride "table salt" in coir I don't believe it, at least in the brand I use, and the University of Utah study I linked above backs me up. If I measure something different I'll get back to this forum.

If what I'm doing isn't working for a new species then I switch. Peat moss and perlite is on my list of good things to try.

I find this all very interesting, and I'm happy to learn more about something I wasn't sure of. I think we each have our own circumstances to deal with, I know I do. Large quantities of planting medium are just not an option for me. I have to bring in small quantities and buy more locally once I've used it up.

Meanwhile, my babies are booming, only one week to go before I can get some of them out of here. Can't wait!

Domehomelee,
Love your sign. LOL!!!

1] Daylily seeds sprouting with Deno method on Dec 2012
2] Seedlings in 3" pots March 23, 2013

Yesterday I took in 2 small flats of iris seeds that has been outside since November getting stratified. They should begin to sprout within 2 weeks due to room temp. Iris seeds are the only genus I sow in flats or trays.

3] My cross of Isn't This Something x Nigerian Raspberry
4] My cross of Mister Flounce x Mesmerizer

Notice the extension of the beards on both.

This message was edited Mar 24, 2013 12:16 PM

Dome, can't believe I didn't get your sign at first glance... ROFL!

Blomma, your iris are gorgeous. I especially love the speckled ones.

Kathy, is there still room for you with all those plants? You must have enough this year to start a business, and get paid back for all your hard work.

I can't believe how big some of mine are getting, they suck up water from my trays as fast as I can refill them. I just did another little trim on the tallest Dianthus and Platycodons, can't wait until I have the room to pot them up. Also the Digitalis would love bigger pots, I guess they come first since they'll go out first.

Today I'm soaking more Datura inoxa White and Batch 2 of Black Currant Swirl. The first batch didn't come up with the others, so I'm trying again, Deno this time. It's still my fave method. I'm waiting one more week to start tomatoes. They get big so fast and I'm feeling claustrophic whenever I think of how crowded everything is right now...

BTW Kathy, I know yours are ahead. Mine usually are, and I kick them outside pretty early, into the mini greenhouse/covered plant stand. Last year they were outside during a two week freeze and survived quite well. The temp under cover never went below the low-to- mid 30's, not quite freezing, and they still grew during the day when the sun was out. The stems thicken up when they go out, too, they get nice and sturdy, not so weak and spindly. I read recently they can take down to 32 under cover, I guess if the frost doesn't touch the leaves? Anyway, that's been my experience, might be worth a try, don't you think?

Jeeeeeze!!! Just typed a message poof, gremlins!!!!! Time to oust them!!!!

Ok starting again.
Dome, just love the sign, I got a good laugh out of that one!! Thanks for making my day!

Blomma, I just love the broken colored Iris, there has been soo much breeding of these new ones in the last 10 years and love to see more. I am confused tho, (please forgive my denseness) Are those pix of your new ones or pix of the parents? And pix 5, those are gorgeous, I just love the (can't remember the name is it Flounce?) The part that sticks up on the falls. Just so pretty. You will have to show us pix of all the babies this spring and am truely looking forward to it..Wanna see what kind of surprises you've been able to create! Do you ever try breeding for fragrance yet? Or should I say to breed fragrance back in?
And your Hems. should be a treat also, hope you get some blooms to show us this season. Speaking of fragrance have you ever used H. flava as a parent yet (for fragrance)? Would love to see more breeding done with that aspect in mind.

We got 14+ inches of the white stuff yesterday and they are saying maybe another inch yet tonight. Was a nice blanket on the ground til yesterday afternoon and the wind picked up a bunch and cleared the ground in many areas.. Would love to have snow without the wind so everything gets a drink!!! Had an elf show up overnight or e. this morning and cleared my driveway, am thinking it was my son-in-law as I will be taking care of the Gkids this week while they are out on spring break.

Pam, yup have to fight my way out of the backroom. It's become a jungle ....plants are so big this year and and am pleasantlty suprised. Many are new so didn't know what to expect but am pleased. Then I look at some others and try to encourage them!!! LOL. Still not sure when I will be moving any outside, still haven't gotten the plastic up on either the greenhouse or the back of the barn/garage. Will be a week or til with all the snow and the gkids now.....Have had great luck on some of the Daturas and some of the Malvas and Hibiscus too, but there are a few of each that are just sitting there in their pots staring back up at me..lol..... Darn it sprout!! Ok have a few more threads to check yet and then off to the jungle again... Later all!

What's in pic 5? Interesting foliage.

I know what you mean about the non-sprouters. I've had a few myself, grrrr.... But I can't really complain, I still have a full house... And so do you!

Kathy,
The cross is as follows:

5] Isn't This Something (pod paren) x Nigerian Raspberry (pollen parent)
4] Mister Flounce (pod parent) x Mesmerizer(pollen parent)

5] reads that ISN'T THIS SOMETHING was fertilized with pollen from NIGERIAN RASPBERRY. I played the part of a bee. Ofcourse, I have both iris plants.

The pod parent is always written first followed by x and the pollen parent. No, I haven't bred for fragrance. I breed for color and hardiness. Last year I used many of my older varieties and crossed them with new. This year I will concentrate on the new and unusual. I want to cross both pictured with an all red that I have and vica versa.

Your plants look so lush, so healthy. You can plants a forest with all that you have. Come summer, you may as well place a bed, and day's breakfast, in your garden. That way you will get some sleep and nourishment. LOL!!!





This message was edited Mar 24, 2013 5:03 PM

ROFLMAO

Lol..you girls... am getting excited to see what all these new goodies will grow up to become. Too bad I have to wait til next year on so many. That's why I'll be doing a gazillion of the annuals. And Pam...that interesting stuff is Ammi majus ruber, a biennial that is suppose to bloom first season, (that doesn't make any sense to me, if biennial they should bloom second season, hence the prefix "bi".. in reserching many of the biennials this season in my books I found many that are listed that way. Book says biennial with first year bloom. Go figure.) And then many of the perenns. won't bloom til second year, some needing the cold of winter to do their thing next season. I love growing new plants but the hardest part is having to wait a whole season for blooms to appear...but I guess that's half the fun!

Believe you me, there' will be a bench in the back for night time viewing......(lol), of the hawkmoths.....I'll sit amongst them and let them flit about.. and the fragrance will be wonderful.. Not sure if i would want to sleep outside tho, we have Fox, Coyote, Deer, Coons and Skunk, oh ya Possums too, oh gosh almost forgot Antelope and not too far away I've heard tell of bear and mountain lions....think I'll sleep inside. The last two are the only ones I have personaly not seen in the neighborhood yet.

Blomma, thanks for the lessons, the information is most welcomed...Please more! I swear..you're gonna get me hooked yet.

More snow again tonight, but they said no wind so should stay where it lands, hope, hope, hope. Ok, I've had my fix for the evening. LOL....but I'm learning soo much. Ok. Will chat at you all later, have a nice one. And Pam, start packing, by the way your plants look amazing so far!!

Dome..(sorry, one last thing before I go.) How are plant sales doing and seeding projects?

Sorry, didn't wanna add pix so will try again....it's a family of racoons, mama and three babies at 5-530am...they woke me and I got a few pix before they scampered off.

What a great pic- love the eyes gleaming out of the dark!

You might want to succession- sow the Ammi majus, maybe even direct sow for a later show. I thought it was lovely, Queen Anne's Lace but better, but was disappointed in how soon it went by. I thought it was an annual, second year I had volunteers. This year I'm doing Orlaya instead mainly just to see the difference for myself. Pics are all 2nd year.

new thread for slow-dial-uppers?

Thank you everyone for this thread - very informative to say the least

Pfg, has Orlaya germinated for you? I've struggled with it for three years. Sowed indoors, off heating mat, on heating mat, pre-chilled, winter sowed, nada. I bought plants last year and really liked them, but they're spendy. I use Promix seed starting mix.

Oh-oh, I thought it would be an easy one. I read about it somewhere, guess I have to do some research! Thanks for the heads up!

Here's the new thread:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1304074/

See you there!