Here goes... Pretreatment: Starting the first seeds for 2013

Thanks for the tip about the dust-like seeds, blomma. Wow, you've been busy!

O.K. I'm convinced, I just downloaded the Deno method and started reading through it. I ran into a section on germinating Cardiocrinum Giganteum. Now mind you I have 3 / 128 cell trays of this out in my greenhouse. Deno explains that it usually fails to germinate because it needs a 5 cycle germination. 40 degrees followed by 70, then 40 again, then 70, then 40. That's a couple of years of watering so most gardeners give up on it. I guess if I want some of these to germinate I will be picking them out of the trays and putting them in paper towels.

Blomma, it's your detailed posts a couple of years ago that got me started using Deno, thanks! And that's a good tip about tiny seeds. I did something similar with Digitalis seeds successfully this year, just pressed them into the top of the mix.

Dome, check with Clothier, too. He continued to experiment, and the database is also huge.

http://tomclothier.hort.net

Dome...lucky you that you can even grow Cardiocrinums....I just looked up..book says it could take up to 7 years to get a blooming plant.....and even bulbils from the mother plant can take several years to maure to blooming size....Good luck...I am guessing you already had one bloom or did you get the seed?

Blooma...wow!!!!!! Are you a hybridizer of daylilies and iris too? Do you seel any of your babies? Tell us more..

No I don't have a plant, just happened on someone giving away fresh seeds. I figure if I can get a few going they might be worth something in a few years. I see Plant Delights Nursery has them, maybe I'll buy a plant, I'd love to try one.

Good Luck!!!! lol

Pam....got a question reference Ceratotheca triloba...you posted you were growing from seed in 2010...how did they do? Anyone else here ever grow them?

Actually, I'm growing them this year, Deno method, 1/11 and 4 days later had sprouts. I put a few in a cellpack, but the others seemed to be stuck to the paper towel already so I just set it in a 4" pot, sprinkled a little coir over them and put them all under the dome. All are fine.

I got my Vermiculite, just about to do a little more planting :-)))))

>> it needs a 5 cycle germination. 40 degrees followed by 70, then 40 again, then 70, then 40. That's a couple of years of watering so most gardeners give up on it.

Can't you leave the trays outside for a few weeks, bring it indoors for a few weeks, then repeat? Maybe reduce the watering effort by bagging the whole tray? I see he says that only fresh seeds germinate. When he says "in 5-11 w", does he mean that they entire process adds up to 5 to 11 weeks, or "5 weeks at 40 F, then 11 weeks at 70F, then repeat"?

Or here is Tom Clothier's advice:

Cardiocrinum Giganteum

http://tomclothier.hort.net/page02.html#C
page down about 3/4 of the way or search on "Cardiocrinum".

Sow at 18-22ºC (64-71ºF) for 2-4 wks,
move to -4 to +4ºC (24-39ºF) for 4-6 wks,
move to 5-12ºC (41-53ºF) for germination

Thanks Pam..think I'll try them with my method and see what kind of results I can get.. Sounds fairly easy..thanks. Do you know of anyone who has grown them? Where did you get your seed? I got mine from one of the trades here but don't have any info as to whom they came from or I could d-mail....lol. I've read various reports on height when searching for info. so was wondering.

Pfg, glad you are passing on the Deno method.

Domehomedee, the seed mentioned that need flunctuating temperature is because they have double dormancy like iris seeds and need it to break dormancy and sprout.

Here is how I sprout Iris seeds, which can be used for any seeds that require fluntuating temps.

Store seeds in the fridge until you are ready. I start my seeds 3 weeks prior to winter weather---between October and November in my zone since I have many cultivars. Begin the process by soaking the seeds over night in a container filled with hand hot water. Allow to cool. The seeds need to remain in cold water for at least 3 weeks. Change the water out daily using a strainer to catch the seeds (to prevent losses). No nicking is necessary. This soaking and rinsing treatment is to remove the seed germination inhibitor present in the seed or seed coat. Outdoors, the fall rains and melting snow in winter do the same thing over a 3 to 4 month period.

If you have only a few cultivars the method below is a quicker way to remove the inhibiting factor. It cuts the soaking time in half since each time you flush, the inhibiting factor becomes less.

Buy nylon knee highs---cheap in Walmart. Put the seeds in the knee high so that they'll end up in the foot then take the knee high and a tag and use a mideum binder paper clip to attach the tag to the open end, or tie a knot.
Remove the top from the toilet tank. Drop the knee high into an area of the tank where it won't interfere with the moving parts in the tank. Be sure to leave the open (or knotted )end outside the tank. The foot part or closed part is put in the tank. The tank top and the binder clip, or knot, will prevent the sock from sinking into the tank and get flushed.

I use plastic shoe boxes with lids---inexpensive from Walmart---to sow seeds in. Drill or burn drainage holes at the bottom. After soaking, sow the seeds in pre-moistened potting soil 1/2" deep. I cover the containers and leave them out all winter long on North side of my house. An unheated shed or garage works also. Iris seeds require 12 weeks of less than 40 degrees temperature that fluctuate to break dormancy. They will sprout during spring when temperature reaches 55 to 70 degrees.

If you live in a climate without cold winters, the fridge can be used. It will just take a bit longer to break dormancy.

When the weather begins to warm in the spring, remove covers. As the seeds sprout place where they will receive morning sun. When large enough to handle, pot them up. I use 3" foam coffee cups with holes pierced at the bottom. Here in Wyoming, May 31 is the safe time to plant in my nursery.

Iris seeds can be stored in ziplock bags and placed in the crisper in the fridge. They will remain viable for years.

Below is my bin full of iris seeds planted in plastic boxes. Dec. 2011.

Have you ruled out dilute hydrogen peroxide as a way to zap germination inhibitors faster? Like 1 ounce per quart?

But I don't know - peroxide might be bad for Iris or some other seeds.

Darn, hit the wrong button

warrior wisdomkathy, Yes I hybridize both irises and daylilies. Got started in 2009 when I found a bee pollinated iris pod, did research and when it sprouted, I was hooked.

I did sell most of my seelings last summer. I kept some to see what hey will do this summer. I may register them if worthy.

Below are 182 Daylily seedlings from 2012. On the right are iris seedlings. What is so fascinating is that each seed grown in the same pod will be a new and different variety never seen due to to many generations of genes that were bred into the parent plants.

To prove that point, all 4 of the seedlings below came from the same seed pod. They bloomed for the first time summer 2012. All but the first 2 I sold.

Lots of good info, thanks for your input.
I think my biggest downfall is going to be that it isn't cold enough outside here for very long. I think I'm going to leave one tray outside for the next month while the weather is still cool at night and then I can put it in the greenhouse in Spring and maybe I can make room in the refrigerator for the Summer. I will dig out some of the seeds in the other tray, the one I just layed the seeds on top, and try them in paper towels. I'll just have to see what happens. I am going to have to decide how long to leave them in each climate.

>> I have experimented both ways and never noticed any difference.

That's good to know. It seemed to help me a lot with Salvia.

>> By the way Peroxide is used 9 parts water to 1 part Peroxide.

I follow the advice I got here, suggesting 1:32 (or 1:16 for spraying plants sic k with fungus). I think a lot of people do use it stronger, as you do.

http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/gardening-with-hydrogen-peroxide.html

I wonder if it also is the inhibiting factor in seeds that prevents sprouting, combined with fluntuating temps. So it is with Iris seeds, so why not with other seeds.

warriorwisedomkathy,
I wonder if using the toilet tank as I stated above to remove the inhibiting factor may help difficult seeds to sprout. Then you just have to worry about temperature. Worth a try.

Oh...wow....I'm soooo pleased to get this info..just love it...lol. I definately will be trying it this year. I have soo many new ones that I received last year (trades and some bought, and the others I've had). Iv'e always wanted to try hybridizing and just never got around to it. Am thinking I'll be doing me some playing this year.! Now got another question, if not too snoopy, where do you sell them ie. flea market? and how much.. Now ya got me on the edge of my seat....Oh naughty me....Gosh I still have four acres to fill..lol. Truely I am only joking....But I would love to devote some land to experiment.......especially since the deer don't bother them and they are a drought tollerant plant once established...I need to finish my pacth along one side of the driveway..(4ft x100+ft.) left to fill yet...( the other side would give me 250-300ft of driveway...perfect for a new endevor..lol.). Ok gotta git for now. be back later.......Need to get this info into my notebook.....Thankyou and any other tibits would be truely enjoyed!!!!

Pix 1, My Iris border that needs finishing
Pix 2, My favorite Iris seller, a you dig (they also have mail order but have to go to the feilds...so much more fun)
Pix 3, same place just another feild and wanted a pix of the poppies too, lol.

warriorwisedomkathy,
Ohhhhh....what I could do with all that space. I have a small yard in town and irises and Daylilies grow on 3 sides plus in the back .

To answer your questions, I sell on Ebay and Lily Auction, both plants and seeds. I sow a certain amount of seeds from each cross, then sell the rest. Or save until the following year. I also wanted to hybridize for a number of years, but put it off thinking it is too involved. Then, found a pod on one of irises and the rest is history....I was hooked. Figured if I can do Irises, I can do daylilies.

My addiction now revolved around these 2 cultivars. I gave many of my other plants to my daughter to give me more room for seedlings. Sold my common daylilies purchased years ago from Walmart for I discovered the uncommon, beautiful ones so purchased those as stock plants, now totalling 69. And my first love---irises---I have 187. Plenty of parents to work with for seeds.

I can hardly wait till this summer since many seedlings of both will bloom for the first time at age 3. A few from 2011 may also bloom. The only bad thing about hybridizing is the actual crossing----6am before I go to work. That is when it is the coolest. Daylilies blooming end of June and on during the hottest time of the year have a hard time setting pods if not crossed when it is cool.

Below ae 144 iris seedlings sowed winter 2011, planted in nursery May 2012. Second photo is to show pots in bin for acclimation

When I was doing all kinds of seeds and before I bought that stand, I placed the potted seedlings in large clear bins from Walmart to harden them off with morning sun. If bad weather threatened, cover went on. If freezing weather, the bin could easily be carried into the house overnight.

To help, I save the pollen from early blooming plants to pollinate later blooming ones. My freezer is full of pollen to be used next season.

Now do I dare ask what can be gotten for them? ($$). We have several local farmers markets in my area and was wondering if it might be a good place to start? I know this would take a few years to get going but would like to go into it prepared..lol. So do you hand pollenate all the Iris or let the bees do any of it.... When I have found pods in the garden, (cuz I didn't get to snipping the flower stalks), I have always saved the seed...

I could even do one of those dig your own type. Give 'em a spading fork and a paper bag...That's how the place that I go to does it..but then again their's are all named.

Blomma, what's your ebay name?

KyWood
You have a D-mail

Oops, sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't mention it here! Thanks!

warriorwisedomkathy.
99% of my seeds are hand pollinated. I do get bee pollinated seeds also but at least I know the pod parent. Most buyers are more interested when you can name both pod parent and pollen parent. The bee pollinated seeds I sell cheaper. They are nice for gardeners who just want to try sowing the seeds at a cheaper price.

As far as cost, hard to say since it depends on how new an iris is or daylily. So on auctions it will start at $1.99 for 8 seeds, depending on the cross. I have quite a few repeat buyers every year.

You can have people dig their own also. I sell seedlings from known parents. The buyer gets all the plant/s to name and register if they want. I can't keep them all for lack of room.

I will forewarn you. It is addictive, especially after you see that first bloom from a cross you did. It is worth it!

It's fascinating to read about and see the pictures of your hybridizing methods. Maybe some day...

I've been thinking about my problem with the P Palmerii,they sprout in the baggy, but don't come up in the pot. I thought the coir I've been sprinkling on the surface is too wet, but now I think it's just too heavy. The reason i do it is becase in the past it has seemed to me that the surface dries out, even under the dome, and there is a hard crust the little shoots cant poke through. It could even be that try dry out and die. I know seeds need consistent moisture during germination, that's what's so great about Deno and the paper towels. Then they say to plant 1/4" deep, which is where I think the trouble lies with some seeds.. This year it's the P. p, nothing else, but it has happened to me before. So it makes sense to me that the vermiculite holds moisture but is light enough for even delicate shoots to get through. Once they're up, presumably the little root is long enough to reach down into the soil and get what it needs.

So the other night I transferred the tiny Veronica and Verbascum seeds to 4" pots, pressed them lightly into the surface of seed sterring mix, covered them with a scant 1/8" of vermiculite, and put them under the dome. The Verbascum was just beginning to show life, the others not yet. I did the same with the last remaining P p seeds just in case they are not duds.


Now we're away for a couple of days, I hope by the time we get back there will be something to see.

Pam it looks like I have 50+ penstemon p. so far, am thinking they are almost all sprouted. If you don't fair well with your crop will share....This was more of an experiment to see if I could.....so have plenty.....

Blomma...nope couldn't be addictive!!! LOL. It's bringing beauty into the world....... and to me that's a good thing... Ok, my excuse.. lol.

If you give a plant a name doesn't it have to be registered or not? So what maybe $2 or $3 for an unregistered ( u-dig or other)? Am thinking the Iris farm I go to charges $6 ish now for named.

Pix 1: Penstemon palmerii seedlings, once I see they are all up and growing good will take them out from under the dome.
Pix 2: Seedlings in open air, growing nicely.
Pix 3: new seedlings coming out into the open
Pix 4: one of my favorite books for reference, huge, am thinking this puppy weighs about 15-20 pounds.
Pix 5: show 5 trays in production, 4 on the top shelf and 1 below, (domes on 3 trays. Those out are propped up close to the light so no stretching yet.

warriorwisedomm kathy,
No, a plant don't have to be registered after you name it. However, you can't sell a plant with a name if it is not registered thus legally own that name.

Yes $2 or $3 sounds fine. It all depends on how much you want to settle for. When I sell a iris seedling that is not registered, the buyer get all fans no matter how many. The reason is that if they want to name and register it, I don't have the right to sell or propagate a fan of it unless I state that they can't register it. One of my seedling had produced 6 fans and all went to the buyer.

Holy Cow, you have seedllings galore. How will you divide them?

I can match your excuse, LOL! I say I am taking care of God's creations. I am his caretaker of sorts.

Pfg,
I have ask, what is "coir"? It sound French. I keep seeing but have no idea what it is.

If your seeds sprout with Deno, there is no reason why they shouldn't continue to grow in soil. I plant sprouted seeds with the seed cover level with the soil and the roots pointing down (ofcourse). When I water, I put some on top but I place the container in water so it syphons upwards. Just pouring water from the top often don't wet all the soil in the container which makes it dry out too fast.

By the way, don't cover tiny or dust-like seeds just press them into the surface of the soil.

Here's a definition from Amazon : Coconut Coir is a 100-percent natural by-product of harvesting coconut. Coir consists of the coarse fibers extracted from the husk on the outer shell of a coconut. Because of its superior water holding capacity, excellent air space and drainage, coir is a useful soil amendment for potted plants...

Last year I used it as a growing medium with mixed results. Some people say it can contain high salt levels which can burn seedlings, and that it should be rinsed with water several times before using. This year I started with MG potting mix (couldn't find seed starting mix in NYC in December) with the big particles sifted out of the top 1/2", and sprinkling coir on top. I think the mix was still too dense for the penstemon, planted 1/4" deep, which was why the little sprouts never surfaced. Everything else did fine. Last week I finally found seed starting mix, will put the sprouted seeds on top of the soil instead of inserting them into it, got some vermiculite to sprinkle on top. I hope not to have any more failures.

Pfg
Why do you feel you have to sprinkle something on top of tiny seeds. If I remember correctly, Penstemon seeds are very tiny. Too tiny to make it to the surface. When I sowed them, I never covered them. I used fine peatmoss and blended the seeds into it. I did that with all tiny seeds.

Another was is to make a furrow in the mix, then pour the seeds into the furrow. With your fingers, just bring the sides of the mix closer so they are in contact with the mix, yet not covered. I have done it that way for years until started using peatmoss.

Personally, I wouldn't bother using coir but thanks for the explanation. Walmart have the seed mix.

Below is this year's sowing of Daylilly seeds. Some purchased, others my own. All with Deno method.

This message was edited Jan 27, 2013 10:22 AM

blomma, I will let them dry a bit and pop them out of the pot...if I have to I let them dry a bit more so they are just moist. It's much easier to break the soil into sections and then start pulling babies to pot on....In the next few weeks I'll get some pix as I'm about ready to start that process (only cuz I got a few plants to work on....and if I wait too long on some they get foliage tangles....In fact I will be giving some of my Dianthus x Loveliness a hair cut this week.)

Pix is white Dianthus x Loveliness w/ Geranium rozzane, (these Dianthus are just the most fragrant little things!!!! Only problem withthem is when rained on they look like a wet kleenex...lol, atleast until they dry a bit....I am growing several pakts of the mix this year as I've lost some of the colors from years ago, such as the purples and reds....

Kathy I Had a couple 2x3 ziplocks of Dianthus reds & Purples & Pinks not sure if there is any left or not .
hope you can find a few .

were getting your snow ,Rain sleet mix tonight so I'm Off to cuddle with a few Movies :)))

Blomma, I couldn't tell you exactly why... I just had this feeling that sometimes the surface could dry out at a critical point, and blamed some failures on that. Then I thought I would hedge my bets... On the whole, it seems to work, Kathy and many others use vermiculite in all kinds of ways, including as a light sprinkle for tiny seeds and up to 1/4" for the bigger ones. I didn't think the penstemon seeds were that small, I'm used to foxgloves and petunias and others which are like dust. But I can tell you I'll never make that mistake again!

This is my 3rd spring as a DGer and I've already learned to do things I would never have tried in my previous gardening life. 99% of my seeding experience was with annuals, all perennials were purchased. There is so much knowledge, ingenuity and creativity here, and I'm soaking up as much as I can!

What fun this has been! And humbling...

Lol Pam....99% of mine have been perenns.....

First of those sown that go into the fridge today. Has any one grown Eryngium giganteum Miss Wilmott's Ghost or The Hobbit and Dierama argyreum? (also put myCephalarias in too).

My E Miss W was started 12/13/12 and has been in the freezer since Jan 6. Tom Clothier says Eryngium alpinum, bourgatii, giganteum, glaciale, palmatum, and spinalba , Sow at 18-22ºC (64-71ºF) for 2-4 wks, move to -4 to +4ºC (24-39ºF) for 4-6 wks, move to 5-12ºC (41-53ºF) for germination . Best if sown immediately after harvest.

I've had no luck direct sowing, at least not so far. Apparently Miss Wilmott herself always carried seeds in her pockets and would surreptitiously sprinkle them in friends' gardens wherever she thought they should be. The friends would be surprised when eventually the plants appeared. I've tried twice so far to no avail... But they could still turn up someday. Meanwhile, I'm trying this way.

do you have to give Penstemons & Wild Indigo, Veronica & Blue Flax Seeds a cold treament before planting them ??

For Penstemons it depends what type. Husker Red germinated for me after 40 days in the frig, P Palmeri doesn't need it if the seed is fresh.

Veronica doesn't need it, should germinate at room temp in less than 2 weeks.

Baptisia they say to plant in the fall or winter sow, so that means it does.

Hi All:
Here are 2 websites that describes plants and also gives sowing information. The top one sells seeds and is a seed bank.

http://www.jlhudsonseeds.net/index.htm

http://tomclothier.hort.net/

Thanks for reminding me about Hudson. I found info on perennial Helianthus, which tells me I'd better try again. I chilled the first batch and now they are doing nothing. Batch 2 will stay room temp.

I'll add the website to my go-to list, that makes 4... Deno, Clothier, Seedsite are the others.

Pfg,
When I started Helianthus 3 years ago, I chilled the seeds. I put the pan of seeds in my garage for 2 weeks. If you have never grown this plant, give it lots of room. I didn't use Deno for them since the seeds are small. Didn't know then about sowing in peatmoss

The clump gets bigger each year. I started in February and it bloomed the first year. I moved it the following spring with my daughter's help and 2 fork spades. The roots grow large and deep. So plant it were it is to grow.

Below is the plant. It is 2 years old.I grow it next to the fence because it grow to 7 ft and need staking.

Thanks, it's gorgeous! I have one H Maximillian from last year, a seedling planted in the spring that I completely forgot about until it bloomed. This year's version is Lemon Queen, which will be in the same general area along with some tall grasses and other thugs. I know I only need 1 to 2 to start with. I'm planning on using annual sunflowers until the perennials fill in.

So now I have to decide what to do with my remaining seeds. The first batch was at room temp for 2 weeks, then in the frig for 16 days, then back to warm. Somewhere in the middle of the cold spell I thought I saw something beginning to happen, but since then nothing. These seeds don't seem all that small to me...