Help please: Black rotting spots on my Bodhi tree leaves!

Hello everyone and Happy New Year.

I am new to this web site and I have a problem I need some help with.

I have a young Ficus religiosa tree I have grown from seed. I have recently noticed black erosive spots on some of the leaves. I would would appreciate it if you could look at the attached a high resolution macro photo of the spots and tell me what I am dealing with. The attached photo is of a newly sprouted leaf, (approximately 1 week ago). I removed all of the affected leaves and had no obviously affected leaves on the tree, then this leaf I noticed today had spots again.

Please help me if you can.

I thank you very much for your help.

Happy New Year to all!

Patrick

It's difficult to offer anything meaningful with so little to go on. For example - it could be a disease, I doubt it's insect-related; it could be a cultural issue, due to the conditions under which the plant grows; it could be a nutritional issue, and the nutritional issue might be either a deficiency, an antagonistic deficiency, or a toxicity, and the nutritional issue could be either directly related to nutrition or it could be nutritional problems due to cultural issues.

I have some ideas, but first:

* What are you using for soil?
* What is the normal interval between water applications - is the soil still wet/damp when you water - do you flush the soil when you water?
* Describe your fertilizer supplementation. Using what - how often - what concentration?
* Is the chlorotic appearance of the plant in the picture illustrative of its actual appearance, or is it a function of the light?
* Plant indoors or out?

Al

Hey Al,

Thanks for the response. It is much appreciated.

To answer your questions:

1) I am using standard Miracle grow potting soil.

2) I water when the soil feels slightly dry an inch down near the trunk.

3) Not sure what "flushing the soil" means. I give a decent watering, but the pot I just re-potted to now has four 3/8" drainage holes and pea gravel in the bottom of the pot.
Doesn't seem like this soil drains very much. Sadly, my options for soil are limited here as the native Florida dirt is mostly sand and I do not want to risk not using clean soil.

4) Fertilizer supplement is Miracle Grow All Purpose Plant Food granules dissolved in water. I feed about once every 2 weeks. NPK:10-10-10.

5)The chlorotic appearance is the actual way the leaves look. This is the first Bo tree I have grown, so I am not sure how dark the leaves should be, but the shade of green is pretty much what you see in the photo. The photo was taken shortly after spraying with neem oil.

6)The tree is in a pot in my garage near my water heater. I have a 150W CFL bulb in an aluminum cone type clamp light, and today, I added a 250W infrared heat lamp due to the temps being expected to drop into the 30s Tuesday night here. (Trying to avoid leaf drop). The infrared is located about 3-4 feet away and shining upwards toward the leaves. Temp with light is maintained well at 80F and humidity in the garage is 47% tonight, which is what it is outside, although very windy and 54F currently.

Also today, I re-potted the tree into the next appropriate size pot. When I took it out of the pot, it was a bit root bound and a bit soggy. I also noticed a small, (3/8" long), FAST moving reddish worm which I pulled out. Due to this worm and the wet feet, I debrided the soil from the majority of the root ball, and placed it into the new pot of Miracle Grow potting soil.

I am fairly new at growing plants, so I am kind of learning as I go. I solicit advice from the garden department employees at my local Lowe's Garden Center. One guy thought it might be a fungus, which is why I sprayed the neem oil on it, and another person there recommended a systemic treatment with Bayer Rose & Flower Care 3 in 1 granules (which supposedly fertilizes, provides insect control and Disease control). I haven't done this step yet as the label on the product says not to use for potted plants. (I am not sure why this matters). I mentioned the black spots on the leaves and the guy said it sounded like Black Spot.

An added note, the plant only had 4 leaves on it, despite having a 4 foot high, spindly trunk for the first 6 months I grew the tree. The trunk still is weak and spindly, and I have it supported with a loose fitting loop of plastic braided twine tied to the water heater pip to help the tree stand straight.

I just started to feed the plant about a month ago with the 10-10-10 Miracle Grow, and 4 new leaves sprouted almost overnight, and two more leaf stems are growing. The leaves also appear to have a very slight white powdery dust on the leaves, but it could be just normal garage dust.

I sure hope this extra info helps you steer me in the right direction. My plans are to make this an indoor tree in my office pruned to about 7 feet I would think.

Again, many thanks for the assistance! I appreciate the time you have taken to help me.

Patrick

This message was edited Jan 3, 2012 10:07 PM

UPDATE:

I moved the tree indoors due to the temp falling last night and the RH being only 40% in the garage. I moved the tree into my master bath, where I have closed the AC duct and am running a hot shower periodically to maintain the RH at 65-70% and the temp of 80F with the infrared turned on periodically. The CFL remains above the plant. I also wiped the leaves down and the dust appears to be gone. The two black spots have not increased in size, nor have any new spots developed. I also bought a 3 in 1 (light, pH, and moisture) meter and placed it in the pot, and it went to almost full wet. pH is in the green at almost 8, and the light is reading 500 when held near the leaves and under the CFL. This Miracle Grow potting soil clearly holds water more than I like. I will not water again until it dries out to normal.

I will leave the tree where it is until this cold snap and low humidity is over, then I will relocate it to my office and start getting it accustomed to that room. I will buy and place a room humidifier in the office to help maintain the RH. I keep the home at 75-78 F usually, so the temp should be okay.

It's just too bad that Florida's oppressive humidity in the summer isn't more evenly spread out throughout the year!

Thanks again for any and all help!

Patrick

if you have a lowe's nearby, pick up a bag of jungle growth. they make several mixes. i've found the flower/veg mix to be ideal for potted plants.
we are all in the same boat when it comes to soil for pots. you would never want to use soil out of the garden, no matter how good it is.

Pat - I didn't forget you. I think you could probably benefit significantly from joining in or at least following this thread:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1236133/

Al

Hey Al,

Thanks again. I have read and will follow the thread you have recommended. What I am gathering from quite a few of your posts, is that I am using a poor soil choice (due to it holding too much water) and that I am not flushing the soil as you say to remove the salts.

I saw your special soil mix recipe that you have recommended to many people on here. My question to you is this: Will a change from Miracle Grow Potting Soil to your mix overwhelmingly stress my Bodhi tree to go from the potting soil to what appears to be essentially, a coarse, non-dirt soil mix? Also, where can I buy the ingredients to make my own soil to your recipe? There are plenty of species of pine trees native to FL but am concerned about introducing new, problematic organisms such as worms, mites, fungi, etc into my pot. Is there a pine bark manufactured and sold commercially for making your soil? What about the other ingredients? I do not recall ever seeing anything other than peat moss at the big box store garden centers.

Thanks again for all you have done for Dave's Garden's readers. Your posts are very interesting and informative and I appreciate your expertise. Thank you for sharing the knowledge with us newbies. Our plants especially thank you I am sure. I look forward to having my Bodhi tree take off and grow beautifully.

All the best,

Pat

This message was edited Jan 6, 2012 10:41 AM

Please read what I'm going to say in a positive light - I'm not being critical of you. I'm going to just talk to you like I would talk to you if I was using your tree as an example to make a point to a group. When I read your initial offering, I had some ideas that sort of centered around nutritional issues, but when I read how you're caring for the plant, I realized it was going to be extremely difficult to pinpoint a probable cause w/o having the plant in hand. That's why I said I think you'd gain from joining or following the other thread I linked to.

There are two ways to approach plants that are declining. You can treat the symptoms, which is often nothing but a stopgap measure, or you can attack the problem at its roots, which so very frequently IS the roots, and the reason why you hear me so frequently talk about soils. An example of treating symptoms might be found in the frequent suggestions of those trying to be helpful, to raise humidity when you start to see spoiled foliage. Yes, it's true that raising humidity can be helpful, but humidity levels are seldom the real, underlying cause of spoiled foliage. If we look deeper, we'll usually find compromised root health/function arising from that triangle I often refer to - water-retentive soils, watering habits, level of salts in the soil as the primary driver behind spoiled foliage. These three things are inextricably linked in heavy soils and virtually absent in open (well-aerated) and free draining soils. So, by adopting these soils you can eliminate what I estimate to be 90% of the potential for problems, even going so far as to include disease and insect predation in that 90%. I can include insects and disease as part of the problem associated with poor soils and watering habits because we know that root function affects vitality and metabolism. Plants with poor vitality and slow metabolisms operate with a reduction in the bio-compounds that serve in the plants defence against biotic and abiotic pathogens, In fact, we know that insects are actually attracted to weakened plants.

This brings me full circle to where I've been over the last couple of days. Every time I'd come back to your thread, I had to decide if I wanted to ask the many questions it would take to sort things out for your tree and then still take the elevated risk of my being wrong because there are so many extenuating circumstances, or should start at the beginning and try to get you started on a firm foundation? There is no question in my mind that the firm foundation is the very best choice, but that still leaves what to do, specifically, with your tree.

I think we need to scrap the infrared light because of the heat build-up that occurs when the light is turned to heat at the leaf surface can be very damaging. Keep the plant above 55* and below 85*. The sweet spot is from about 68-78*, and soil temperature is more important than air temps. If you need to, use a propagation mat to keep soil temps where they should be.

I don't think your leaf blemishes are insect, disease, or mechanical injury. I think they are due to a nutritional issue, but there are several possible causes. Wet soils inhibit nutrient uptake - particularly Ca, which is what I suspect the issue to be, though the chlorotic appearance of the older leaves suggests that perhaps we were dealing with an ACTUAL nutritional deficiency due to a scarcity of nutrients in the soil, rather than cultural influences that prevented uptake. There's just no way to know, which is why I hesitated.

Don't worry so much about humidity. The Bo tree's foliage is rich in cuticular waxes that help it retain moisture and guard against low humidity problems.

Lets flush the soil, then get it dried down to where it should be. We can then fertilize with a fertilizer with a 3:1:2 ratio, which will allow you to keep salt levels at their lowest w/o nutritional deficiencies; and we can figure out a way that you can water properly w/o risking root rot. Are you up for all that?

Al

Al,

Rest assured that I take everything you share with me in a positive light. I do not feel like you are being critical of me at all. I am the first to admit that I am essentially clueless about growing plants in general and especially the Bodhi tree. In fact, I would be willing to bet that if this weren't a ficus and therefore very forgiving, I would likely have killed this tree by now, during my trial and error experimentation at growing it. I would rather you be critical of me, call me an idiot, or whatever is required to help me learn what I need to learn to help this tree be all it should be. I just want a healthy, flourishing tree. I have never knowingly neglected it, and in fact, I probably have attempted to over-manage it. I just have put so much effort into it, from sprouting the seed on up to this point, that I am ready to see some REAL rewards from my time investment.

Now, with that said, I can inform you that the infrared bulb has been discontinued as have the attempts at increasing the humidity with the shower (and I cringe at the coming spike in my water bill). The weather has returned to a normal temperature and humidity for Florida for January. Today the temps were in the 70s and the humidity was in the 70s as well. Currently, at 10:30pm, the temp is 64F outside with 90% humidity! Thank you for the temperature and humidity guidelines, by the way. The tree remains inside my home however and under the 42W (150W equivalent) CFL bulb in the aluminum deflector. It is under the CFL during daylight hours, (roughly 10-12 hours a day), then switched off at night where it stays in total darkness for the 12 hours of the night.

To answer your question, I am more than ready to do whatever steps I need to do to achieve a flourishing, healthy condition. I doubt it has ever been truly healthy based on it's strange growth (4' tall, spindly, weak trunk with just a few leaves at the top after about 6-8 months of growing it). I also agree that the Miracle Grow Potting Soil is not a good choice for the tree as when I re-potted it last week the roots looked pretty sad. I did re-pot it into a fresh pot of soil just last week, so I am not sure how much salt build up is in this particular pot of soil, but I am more than willing to do whatever you think will help its condition improve. I have not watered it since I re-potted it and I feel I watered it minimally then, and while the top of the soil has dried some, the moisture gauge probe at the root ball is still reading well towards the "high" indicator mark. I would be ready to flush the soil if you think it is indicated after a week in "fresh" soil, but the way this potting soil holds moisture, if I really flush it until it is saturated and dripping, it may take a month or more to dry out which makes me think that a devastating case of root rot would likely occur. I have never seen a soil retain so much moisture like this stuff does. Someone else above recommended Jungle Growth Flower & Vegetable soil, which I have used with a Gerbera Daisy plant I grew a few years ago but I was not really impressed with it either, although I forget what the specific issue was. Again, knowing I am such a novice at growing plants, it could have simply been my mistakes and not the soil. I have given up trying to grow anything but this Bo tree and a few cacti that my wife and I have had for years, that seem to be indestructable no matter what we do to them.

I am willing to spend whatever amount of money needs to be spent, take whatever risks and make whatever modifications you feel are necessary to get the Bodhi tree flourishing. I do think it is very strange that the trunk is about 4 feet tall and only about the diameter of a pencil at the soil and the first actual branches are at the 4 foot level, despite the entire trunk being sporadically covered in what appear to be branch nodes. The trunk has to be supported with a 5 foot plant stake or the top of the tree leans about 70 degrees from the base of the trunk.

Anyway, I will stop about the tree. I simply don't know what further information to provide you. Just let me know whatever steps you recommend and it will be done. I have spent a lot of time reading your posts and am convinced you possess a plethora of sound scientific knowledge about growing plants, and I am convinced I can trust you to help me.

Again, thanks for your time. I know time is a commodity for all of us and I appreciate you sharing your time with me and Dave's Garden as a whole. I know I can be a windbag at the keys, so I will try to keep it as simple as I can. I just feel I need to provide as much detailed information as possible. Either that, or I would have to send you a plane ticket for you to come to FL to have a first hand look. Ha ha.

Anyway, I stand ready to implement your suggestions as required.

Best regards,

Pat

This message was edited Jan 8, 2012 11:41 PM

This message was edited Jan 8, 2012 11:50 PM

Al,

Okay, well, today I saw that tiny "dust" again on the leaves, but I was unable to wipe it off. I got out my digital camera and took some close up macro shots and then enhanced them a little in iPhoto. Sadly, they are SO small that I will need a microscope to get a good look at them, which I do not have.

I wanted you to see these "spots". I think they might be some sort of microorganism, and a few of the spots are even shaped like tiny worms.

Please take a look and let me know what you think. I will post three photos.

Thanks, Al.

Pat

Second shot. You might need me to send these to your email so you can download them and then use a photo viewer zoom feature to see them better.

shot three. This is the view that shows the spots looking like a worm. When you look at the plant with the naked eye, the spots are way smaller than the head of a pin. As I have said, it looks like dust with the naked eye. Only with my digital camera in macro mode and THEN enhancing them with iPhoto did I see that they look like they might be bugs, worms, etc.

Please give me a shout when you can. I will D-Mail you my email address if you like.

Thanks,

Pat

i know you're addressing Al but i'll give my two cents anyway and say that it looks like spider mites to me. the white things might be dead bodies or something else entirely but the speckling and general look brings to mind spider mites.

Thank you for the .02, Trackinsand. Much appreciated.

Pat

I agree that you likely have a serious mite infestation, & it should be treated asap.

Al

Al might have a better idea (and I want to hear it if you do,) but the two best ways I've found to get rid of spider mites are either a good thorough rinsing of the leaves with water (which you may not want to go through again) or insecticidal soap, which isn't toxic to humans or pets. The latter is the only thing I'll risk spraying in the house, since I have a couple of small aquariums and several pet birds. I get the concentrate and mix it up in a spray bottle, then spray the plant down well. You'll probably need to give it a weekly spraying for several weeks.

They seem to come out when the humidity is low - I have problems with them in the winter, but not in the summer. They've cost me three Orlean Jasmines over the years.

i've always dealt with them with water when the plant is outside. they love hot, dry, windy conditions; they hate water. inside is a little trickier, for me anyway. i use a spoon of liquid castile soap in a spray bottle and keep up the spraying every day until they are gone and then once a week. i get my plants back outside asap after the cold spells are over.

The trick is making sure you get the undersides of the leaves (whether with water or a pesticide) because that's where they live. If you just spray something on the tops of the leaves you'll miss most of the mites. I generally manage them (for things in pots that are outdoors) by tipping the pot toward the side, then blasting the undersides of the leaves with the hose. I repeat that every couple days for a week or two and that usually takes care of them.

ditto to what ecrane said.

Some mite remedies other than recognized chemical miticides in order of effectiveness:

* Water in a spritzer
* Water & rubbing alcohol @ 50/50 in a spritzer
* Water & insecticidal soap per directions in a spritzer
* Pure, cold-pressed neem oil, such as that packaged by Dyna-Gro
In a 1 qt spritzer containing 1 pint of hot water, add 1/2 teaspoon Murphy's oil soap or other true soap and 1 tsp neem oil. Shake well & add 1 pint rubbing alcohol. Spritz/saturate plant, making sure to drench leaf undersides & cover leaf axils. Shake container frequently while spraying. Use all the mix or discard when finished spritzing.

100% coverage is important with all the above apps.

Al

Greetings all, and thanks very much for all of the information. Glad to see the group of respondents arriving to the same consensus that it is a spider mite infestation. Now, I can finally address what is probably the majority of this trees problem.

I have some Garden Safe® Brand Neem Oil Extract Concentrate from Lowe's. I am not certain that this is a "cold press" formula, but the label does indicate it kills spider mites. I cannot seem to find this "cold press" info on the label or their website. I will first spray the tree off with a strong stream of water on both sides of the leaves, allow it to dry, then mix the concoction of neem oil, rubbing alcohol, Murphy's Oil Soap and hot water and drench this thing, hitting both sides of leaves and the trunk all the way down to the dirt.

I still have a few questions:

Is there a need to re-pot with fresh soil and spray the roots as well? Is there a possibility of their eggs being dropped into the soil and hatching later?

And how often can, and should I, apply the solution?

Al, I am still interested in doing the steps you recommended as far as flushing the soil, drying it down and applying a fertilizer with a 3:1:2 ratio if you feel it will help. Please if you would, can you give me more details on these steps? Also, I would make your soil recipe, but I am not sure as to where to obtain all the ingredients.

Thanks again, everyone!

Kind regards,

Pat

This message was edited Jan 11, 2012 8:22 PM

This message was edited Jan 11, 2012 8:25 PM

your concoction sounds a bit on the drastic side to me and possibly a waste of product. just squirt a little dishwashing liquid in a bottle with water and mist it all over. you don't need to treat the soil or the roots. spider mites come and go; it's a fact of houseplant life and sometimes outdoor plant life too but it is so easy to treat, really. do it every day for a week and then keep an eye out for critters.

If anything is drastic, it's spraying detergent on a plant, which can destroy cuticular waxes.

Pat - All products that contain 'neem derivatives' are not created equal. Solvent and steam extraction methods (possibly other methods as well) reduce the amount and/or effectiveness of the ingredient (azadirachtin) in the extract that is responsible for its efficacy. Cold-pressed product has the most azadirachtin.

Though there is little in the way of immediate knock-down when using neem extract, it is a powerful anti-feedant, an oviposition deterrent (anti-egg laying), a growth inhibitor, a mating disrupter, and a chemosterilizer. Azadirachtin, closely mimics the hormone ecdysone, which is necessary for reproduction in insects. When present, it takes the place of the real hormone and thus disrupts not only the feeding process, but the metamorphic transition as well, disrupting molting. It interferes with the formation of chitin (insect "skin") and stops pupation in larvae, thus short-circuiting the insect life cycle. It also inhibits flight ability, helping stop insect spread geographically. The real soaps (as opposed to dish washing detergents) also dissolve chitin, causing insect death by dehydration. I've never seen a negative reaction by a plant to properly timed neem applications.

I suggest you use only a raw, or cold-pressed neem oil product (so you maximize the level of the azadirachtin), such as the one made by Dyna-Gro. Three applications at 2 week intervals will knock out most pests. If you want more specific information on neem oil, I wrote an article a while back that I can post.

.... pressed for time right now, Pat. I'll ck in tomo with more on the soil flushing & soil info. Take care.

Al

well, in the beginning i did suggest liquid castile soap which is an oil derived product and the only thing i personally use. i was just trying to save the guy some time and money and get the mites off the plant asap (which, imho, is doing much more harm to the plant long term than dish soap would for a week).

Pat - I'll let you decide how you want to go about treating the mites, but they should be treated. They are unrelated to the reason you initially posted, but since they subsist on sap, the lifeblood of the plant, they can be a serious threat.



It's doubtful that your plant is so root bound that it would be an issue that would send your plant into a spiral so serious the plant's viability hangs in the balance. It could be a contributing factor to poor vitality and even to the mite issue, but for now I think your focus should be on trying to provide the most favorable cultural conditions you can.

Let's pull the plant from the pot and inspect the roots. If you find black, slimy, sour-smelling roots that have succumbed to soggy soil conditions, you should probably address the issue by removing the soil and cutting the roots back to sound tissue. Now is not the best time of year to undertake an emergency repot, but rotted roots are a serious issue & won't likely correct themselves w/o intervention. So ... determine if the roots are a problem.

If roots seem sound, we'll return the plant to the pot and flush the soil thoroughly. That means that you'll first wet the entire soil volume and let it rest for 10 minutes or so, then pour a volume of water at least equal to the volume of the pot the plant is in through the soil to flush out any salt accumulation. Do this at least 5 times, and up to 10 times would be better. After the planting stops draining, depot again & set the plant on a towel or a stack of newspapers until the excess water is removed from the soil, then return it to it's pot again.

Be careful not to over-water. You may have to employ a few tricks that will allow you to water properly until you can get the plant into a more appropriate soil. I'll help you with that after you determine whether or not you need to repot now, and we can talk about fertilizing after you decide.

Al

Hi Al,

Thanks for the reply. It is much appreciated.

I will implement the steps you have recommended first thing tomorrow morning. I have the day free so I will have time.

Considering I will be removing the plant from the pot, wouldn't it be a good idea to just start with another fresh pot of soil, to avoid the need to flush the salts from the soil? I have a sneaking suspicion that the roots ARE indeed going to be black and slimy, as they appeared that way the last time I re-potted. I did not trim the roots back to healthy tissue last time, but I will this time for sure. I will also rinse the roots off real well with water and allow them to dry a stack on paper towels before re-potting. I would like to amend the Miracle Grow Potting Soil with whatever additions you feel would allow it to drain better. I typically put an inch of pea gravel in the bottom of the pot, but with this soil, it clearly doesn't help much with drainage. I know a good, well-draining soil is what I am lacking in the equation, (in addition to killing the mites).

Please let me know what you think about this.

Thanks again,

Pat

IF the roots are compromised by rot, your decision is made, as you'll need to bare root & trim back to sound tissue, then repot. That is going to be traumatic in the middle of winter for a plant that is in severe decline, so only do it if necessary. If the roots prove sound, just flush the soil. While working on the roots, it's important to keep them moist. When I suggested you depot the plant and put it on newspapers, that was with the understanding there was an intact root/soil mass that was soggy after flushing.

It's very difficult to amend MG potting soil so it drains well. To illustrate, picture a quart of pudding in your mind's eye. How much perlite would you have to add the the pudding to make it would be well-aerated and drain well? Trying to amend a soil comprised of virtually all fine particulates is the same. It's not until the larger particles are about 70% of the mix that you see an increase in drainage, aeration, and a reduction in the ht of the perched water table. Is there any chance you could come up with some 'Repti-Bark' from a pet store and some perlite? With those ingredients, we can build you a suitable soil that will drain well & provide good aeration with little or no perched water. If not, there are some tricks I can help you with that will help reduce water retention.

Skip the drainage layer. It serves only to raise the location of the perched water table in the pot. A soil that supports 4" of perched water without a drainage layer has 4" of soggy soil at the bottom of the container. The same soil With a 2" drainage layer has the same 4" of soggy soil, it just rests atop the drainage layer. All the drainage layer does is reduce the volume of soil that is assured to be healthy for roots - ineffective & counterproductive.

Al

Well, here's what I found when I de-potted the tree today. [See Photo]

I trimmed that long straggler root off, but left the rest alone as they appeared okay. I thoroughly flushed all of the dirt off the roots, quickly washed the inside of the pot out with a little Murphy's Oil Soap and rinsed really well prior to doing so, as the inside of the pot looked a little slimy. I picked up some Jungle Growth Potting Soil prior to all of this to see what the composition looked like compared to the Miracle Grow, and it IS indeed a bulkier looking soil, with a lot of small wood slivers in it. I placed the soil into the pot (without the pea gravel layer - thanks for that information about that), and checked pH and moisture with my 3 in 1 pH, Moisture and Light meter. Without even watering the soil in, the meter registered perfect on the moisture level and a pH of slightly less than 7 which is where the Bodhi tree should be from literature I have read online.

I planted the tree into the new soil, and it did feel slightly moist fresh out of the bag, so I did not water it in. It packed well also, so I actually think this stuff comes ready to use, perhaps? There was definitely a moist feel to it and as I said, the meter was spot on for both moisture and pH. I then placed the tree in the dirt, gave a gentle pat down and placed it into the warm, direct sun and allowed it to sunbathe a few hours before bringing it back into my garage. I also purchased a 65W (blue glass) grow bulb and replaced the 42W CFL (150W incandescent equivalent) bulb. Not sure if this was a good idea, but the light meter registers about mid way on the meter at the foliage level. I have the bulb about 2 feet away from the leaves as the package said between 1 and 3 feet away from the foliage is best. I guess I could move it a bit closer and see if I get a better reading. IF this isn't the best light to use, please advise ASAP. I also have been doing some reading online and I read where LED lighting is the optimal lighting for indoor plant growing. Is this true? Do you have any experience with LED lighting?

Anyway, I wasn't able to find any Repti-Bark, as PetSmart was out of it, and the only perlite I could find was Miracle Grow, which I was told is loaded with fertilizer. I also heard Miracle Grow Perlite is very alkaline in composition from ammonia in it, and I did not want to risk playing with fire. I will see how the Jungle Growth works for moisture retention and if necessary, the next re-pot I will do the perlite and Repti-Bark. I just wanted to get it out of that MG soil ASAP and didn't want to risk one more day with soggy roots. Fortunately, I think the roots are okay. Zoom in on the photo and you can see close up.

You had mentioned that you had some tips for watering without running into the over-saturation issue again. I am all ears!! Hopefully, this Jungle Growth Potting Soil will help.

By the way, I have treated the spider mites with your concoction twice now. (Two evenings in a row) although I did not do it this evening. I did not want to stress the tree anymore for one day. Do you think I should do more tomorrow?

Anyway, thanks again for all the good input. I just might get this thing growing, yet!

All the best,

Pat

I'm assuming it's too cold to keep the plant outdoors? How cold does it get in the garage without all the extra heat sources ..... and is there a reason this plant isn't indoors, instead of the garage?

You'd be better off using the wattage to push blue (cool) light from a fluorescent light for the lighting, but outdoors or in front of a window would be better, if temperatures allow.

Root critique: The roots look healthy. In your D-mail, you said you pruned off about 4" - I wouldn't have pruned any roots now, only because of the timing of the repot. Based on how the roots look, I'd say that it didn't NEED a repot - at least not because of root congestion. It may have needed it because of a poor soil, but it would have been better to work with the soil per previous instructions, until a better time to do the repot.

Secure the plant to the pot so it doesn't move in relationship to the pot (hastens reestablishment of roots). Use a wick - Jungle Grow is rather water-retentive. Withhold fertilizer for 2 weeks if there was no fertilizer in the soil. If there WAS fertilizer in the soil, wait longer - until the plant begins to grow in earnest before fertilizing.

Don't overuse the neem oil - every two weeks until the mite issue is cleared up is good - usually 2-3 applications are enough. If you have other plants - treat them all.

Best luck.

Al

Hey Al,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, the weather here is unusually cool and windy here again. Last night, it dropped into the 40s and it's only 51 now at 11:10 am. The high will only be about 55 at best. The current conditions are Clear, Wind: NW at 15 mph, and humidity at 53%. I had to bring the tree indoors last night as the garage was even a bit too cold even with the heat lamp close to the tree, but not directly shining on it, just upwards towards the ceiling. I brought it inside to the bathroom where the temp is maintained at around 72 degrees with central air conditioning/heat.

Regarding light, unfortunately, the only window that gets good light is an east facing window that gets about 3 hours of morning sunlight. I have no south facing windows, but have a patio that gets a bit of sun from about 2pm to 4pm. Just isn't an ideal house for growing indoors. I have been putting it outside in the direct sun when temps allow and moving it as needed to keep it in the sun. Unfortunately, I work 4 days per week, so this isn't always easy. My wife helps on my days to work as she is off then. We have small kids, so one of us is always home, pretty much.

Per your advice, I will switch back to the CFL bulb I was using. Do you think I should buy a 12 inch, or even 4 foot, fluorescent tube (shop light) kit for it, or just stick with the 42W CFL bulb in the aluminum shaded clamp light I have? Obviously, when the temps allow, I will get it back outside. I had been keeping it in the garage as the spider mites kind of weird the wife out being in the house. I think she thinks they are going to infest the house, carpeting, beds, etc. I doubt this is a possibility as I would think they would stay on their food source, correct?

Glad to hear you agree that the roots look good. I pruned the part I did because it looked darker than the rest of the roots and smelled a little funky.
This is also the same reason I re-potted in new, different soil. I did so because the soil was still SUPER saturated and I thought it would speed up the drying out process you spoke about. I definitely wanted to try the perlite/Reptibark mix, but simply could not find either, other than the Miracle Grow Perlite that I mentioned. The Jungle growth has perlite in it, as did the MG, and because the Jungle Growth looked a little "woodier" and not so compact and small particle, that i figured to try it out. I do at some point want to make the best possible soil I can for it, so rest assured, your advice will be taken. I simply wanted to get it out of that MG swamp ASAP. Honestly, I was SHOCKED to see the roots looking so healthy, as the last time I re-potted up for size, the roots looked black and slimy pretty much throughout.

The tree is secured to a 4 foot, green, plastic coated tree stake with 3 pieces of loosely applied velcro cable wrap that I move up and down the trunk every couple of days. The trunk doesn't move at all.

Now then, regarding using a wick. I have watched a coupe of videos on YouTube about using a wicking system to water, However, now that the plant is already in the pot, I am not exactly sure how to insert a wick. Do I take a piece of cloth such as a strip of old T-shirt material and push it up one of the drainage holes in the bottom of the pot, then sit the pot on top of a bowl of filtered water or something like that? I just don't want to make any mistakes, so I am asking for specific details on this technique if you will oblige. The Jungle Growth I used is "Professional Flower & Vegetable Mix"
which has the following nutritional composition:

0.22-0.11-0.18

Specifically as follows:

Nitrogen: 0.22% (0.12% Ammoniacal Nitrogen & 0.10% Urea Nitrogen)
Phosphate: 0.11%
Soluble Potash: 0.18%
Calcium: 0.02%
Magnesium: 0.015%
Iron: 0.0006%
Zinc: 0.0001%

The label says it feeds for up to 4 months. Is the above composition enough to wait for earnest growth, or should I supplement?

Regarding the Neem oil, I think I misunderstood your comment of "Three applications at 2 week intervals will knock out most pests."

I assumed that meant three applications of Neem Oil every two weeks, where now, I assume you mean one application, every 2 weeks for 3 applications total (over 6 weeks). Glad I didn't do an application yesterday!
Guess I wasn't understanding you clearly, which as I get older I find more challenging every day. haha

I haven't had the tree too close to the cacti I have, but I will treat them also.

I did manage to get my hands on some castille soap. My wife is a RN and as it turns out, this is the soap they use for soapsuds enemas. She had to administer one yesterday and instead of tossing the remainder of the soap, she brought it home. Should I use this in place of the Murphy's Oil Soap? I read online that Castille soap can be used daily as needed to help kill spider mites without causing damage. Is this correct?

In closing, I really want to thank you again for your time, patience and kindness in teaching me the ropes of growing this tree. I deeply appreciate it!

Best regards,

Pat

P.S. Check your D-mail for a photo of my growing set up.

The wick isn't used to supply water - it's used to drain excess water from the pot. Please read this copy/paste job from a thread I posted to another site a while ago: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1237169/

This thread should tell you almost everything you need to know about Ficus culture in containers: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/houseplt/msg102259544341.html

Securing a tree to a stake doesn't secure it from movement in relation to the pot or soil mass.



Al

regarding the castile soap, you can find Dr. Bronner's Castile almost anywhere these days in liquid form. comes in several scents. i get whatever i can although the peppermint leaves an especially nice scent in the garden. you can also buy the bar variety (Kirk's) at most supermarkets/drugstores, take a piece and let it dissolve in water.

because it is made up of various oils (without being greasy itself), it is ideal for killing just about anything....and very quickly too. i never spray at times when bees are present because it does not discriminate.

you can wash your hair, your dogs hair, whatever you want....it is that gentle.

i really can't say enough good things about this product.

Al,

HOLY MOLEY, MAN!!!

I just spent several minutes looking at your posts. GREAT COMPREHENSIVE STUFF on growing the Ficus! I think I have a far better understanding now about what I am doing wrong. You seriously need to be writing books ("Container Gardening For Dummies" comes to mind, et al).

I also just looked at your embedded link to your photos of your garden. I am just blown away by the skill set you have for this. Your thumbs are 50 carat emeralds without a doubt. Makes me want to just throw my spindly, sorry excuse for a Bodhi tree in the skip and be done with it. I don't think I will ever be able to do what you do. I know you've earned everything you have achieved through study, which I simply do not have time for between working and raising small kids. I need answers to problems and QUICK, evidently, and you have provided me this info. I am eternally grateful. I imagine you peed yourself laughing at the photo I sent of my entire tree. If not, you should have. How about I just send my tree to you for about 3 months every year and you can tune it up and send it back?!?!? I am very amazed by your plants, and VERY depressed about mine.

Reading the threads you sent the link for, I realize just how behind the eight ball I am until I get this tree into well draining soil and in one consistent location. I want to put the tree in my den eventually, so i guess I will hang a swag light in a corner and permanently place the tree there. It will get what little natural sunlight I get through a window in the house, from 8 am to about 11 am, and I guess I will just leave the CFL on all the time in addition. What lighting/darkness cycle do you recommend for my tree in its current condition? Should I turn off the light at night like a normal solar cycle, or just leave the light on 24/7? I read somewhere where foliage growth occurs at night in darkness, but I do not know whether this is true.

I will employ the wick as you mentioned in the blog and suspend the pot so it can drain better.Makes perfect sense about the PWT and the wick makes sense. If the wick doesn't touch the soil, how does it stay in the pot? Or does the wick have to fit snugly into the hole and just barely in the hole? My pot bottom is about 1/4" bamboo, so I don't know how I will manage this. Also, you didn't mention what type of material the wick should be made of.

I find it interesting that the 3 in 1 meter I have is worthless essentially for knowing how wet the soil really is. Luckily it didn't cost a lot. Is it good for pH and light, or should I just toss it along with the rest of the crap I have bought trying to grow this tree. I will not even tell you how much money I have spent on this tree thus far to essentially have a 4 foot pencil with 8 leaves and a knarly case of spider mites. So depressing and my wife is just about to cut me off. haha I told her about the Repti-bark and she just looked at me like I was in need of a psych consult.

I do want to ask you about one of the plants in your photos. It is in the 4th photo down on the Gardenweb site link you sent me. (The one with the frog with his feet in the air), There is a plant that looks like a stalky elephant ear on steroids. It is just to the left of the frog. What kind of plant is that? it looks pretty tropical for your neck of the woods.

Anyway, a huge thank you for sharing the links. This will help me so much, I know.

Next step.... build a well aerated, well draining soil.

My wife wants to hire you as our gardener, btw.

Thanks again,

Pat

Thanks Trackinsand for the heads up on the Dr. Bronner's! I went to the web site and have 4 stores in my area that carry it. Sounds like I will want to shower with it more than kill bugs with it though. haha

Where abouts are you located. Orange county?

Thanks again,

Pat

i'm in lake county, a little town west of orlando (umatilla).
i use the kirk's bar soap to shower with...does a nice job with our well water.
i am plagued with weevils and leaf-footed bugs here and the bronner's kills them instantly with one spray. it smothers and desiccates their bodies. i also use it on the three striped walking sticks because they shoot a poison straight into your eyes if you aren't careful.

Hey Al,

I was able to find a fir bark, coarse perlite and charcoal mix by way of BETTER-GRO 8-Quart Special Orchid Mix at Lowe's. Also, I picked up a bag of BETTER-GRO 8-Quart Orchid Bark, which contains just fir bark.

Would either of these be a suitable substitute for pine bark in your soil mix? All the pine bark I could find at Lowe's was large "Pine Bark Nuggets" for mulching or possibly garden use and cannot say whether it is clean, (doesn't look too clean to me). The pieces were also too large for use as a potting soil and the only Perlite Lowe's carries right is Miracle Grow Perlite, which has fertilizer in it with an Ammonia base. I will continue to search for plain Perlite, but would the Special Orchid Mix with the coarse perlite be okay to use? It also has charcoal in it, which I do not know what its purpose is for, or if it will harm a ficus tree. I guess I could technically pick the charcoal out of it before using.

Would love your opinion on this, as well as those of others willing to weigh in. This morning, I see small new foliage growth up top.

Thanks to all,

Pat



This message was edited Jan 17, 2012 10:38 AM

Hey ladies and gents,

Well, after 3 treatments of Al's concoction to kill the spider mites, and an additional treatment of just Neem OIl, my spider mite problem appears to persist. I have rinsed the leaves MANY times with a hose and I spritz the foliage with filtered water 3-4 times per day. I have made certain that I have hit the undersides of the leaves as well, (There are only 8 of them) and yet, new brown spots are appearing and the little specks that we decided were spider mites still persist.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? Will Dr. Bronner's kill spider mites for certain?

Anyone have any experience with predator mites? I am considering that next I guess.

Would love to hear from someone.

Thanks folks,

Pat

A close up shot of the brown spot on the leaf.

the brown spots have (imho) nothing really to do with the spider mites. that is another problem entirely. i suggested the problem of spider mites based on the over all look of the leaf underside in general.

There are a LOT of things that can cause brown spots on a leaf, oedema as a result of over-watering, nutrient deficiencies, mechanical injury, disease, compromised roots, heat lamps ...... I can assure you that if you treated the plant 3 times as directed, that your mite issue isn't an issue - or it's at least presently assuaged. They're stubborn, but don't bounce back THAT quickly - and the neem oil is very effective on current populations as well as preventing future generations.

My impression is that you need to slow down, take a deep breath, stop obsessing, and concentrate on getting the cultural conditions right, so the plant can do what it's genetically programmed to do. Don't forget, you're on plant time, not people time. Plants are not regenerative organisms and things don't happen overnight. I'm not saying this to be mean or snotty, I'm saying it because I think it's the best advice I can now give you, and it comes from the experience of helping people with plant problems for many years.

Al