Size of pot for starting a seeds

Does the size of pot have any impact on starting seeds..??..

What I'm thinking is to just start my seeds -- specifically the tomatoes and peppers -- in bigger pots (ie; 6in) instead of those 2" ones. I'm hoping to be able bypass transplanting into bigger pots.

I can't imagine that it would be a problem but just wasn't sure..???...

I appreciate your comments....

Thanks...

Jann

If I remember correctly moving tomato seedlings from a small pot to a larger one stimulates root development and is a necessary step in development - if I am wrong - someone please correct this information.

I've never figured out why seeds sown in larger pots produce plants that tend to die, whereas if they are sown in small pots, and then potted-up, they do fine.

I think it has something to do with the amount of water in the soil - the roots just rot when seeds are sown in larger pots.

At least this has been my experience.

Dyson is right. It helps with branching. I saw where someone had posted this link somewhere, and I saved it for reference:

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137toc.html

Ahhhh... I googled and found this answer to someone's question similar to mine in that wouldn't it just be EASIER to start seeds in a bigger pot. The answer really explains WHY you need to transplant into larger containers. Dyson...you were correct --> transplanting helps root development.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch26.html

Actually, if I read the tomato article correctly, the reverse is true:

Since the root system is disturbed and the development of the plant more or less checked at each transplanting, it might be concluded that plants grown from seed sown directly in pots or other containers would grow more vigorously and give a higher yield than those once or twice transplanted. In fact this has been shown by numerous investigations to be the case. That transplanting in itself does not promote an early crop nor an increased yield has been also clearly demonstrated.

In an experiment in Wisconsin three crops of tomatoes were grown . . . In each case seeds were planted singly in 6-inch pots in the greenhouse; when the plants were about 2 inches in height, two-thirds of the whole number were dug up and reset in the same pots; later, one-half of these were again transplanted in a similar manner. As soon as weather permitted, 10 plants of each lot were knocked from the pots and set 4 by 8 feet apart in open ground, every precaution being taken to avoid injury to the roots. 29

Those not transplanted yielded more than those once transplanted, while those twice transplanted yielded least. The total for 10 plants with each treatment during a 3-year period was, 1,175, 1,131, and 1,001 pounds, respectively.

That early production is influenced by reducing root injury in transplanting is shown by the following experiment. Seeds of the Bonney Best variety were sown in the greenhouse. Seven days later some seedlings were transplanted 3 by 4, inches in a greenhouse bench. Others were set 2 by 2 inches in flats. Approximately a month later the flats were thinned by removing alternate plants. The plants thus removed were set in 4-inch pots. Another lot of seed was sown a week after the first transplanting. These seedlings were not transplanted. All four lots were set into the field on May 12, 4 by 4 feet apart. The potted plants, which were no larger than the plants in the flats but had a better root system, grew much faster than the others. They came into bearing early in the season when the price was high and gave by far the greatest financial returns, although the plants from the greenhouse bench and flats gave practically the same total yields.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch26.html

(edited to add link)

This message was edited Jan 23, 2011 12:50 PM

At the very top of the article, there are pictures of various plants as example (figures 70 & 71), and reads to promote transplanting, but yes, later in the article, where you have quoted, it does sound like transplanting is not a good idea. I had not read that far down, to be honest, and it appears that there is conflicting information. Maybe I won't save this article as a future reference!

While the container size may be open to debate, there are two really important requirements for containers when starting tomato seeds: they need to be sterile and they need to have good drainage. The containers you use to start tomatoes have 3 jobs:
1. Be a safe home to your seedlings while they germinate
2. Keep away diseases
3. Help tomato sprouts grow 2 sets of leaves
This link may help! http://www.tomatodirt.com/seed-starting-containers.html

I don't always pot-up - it depends on the weather. If it looks like it's not going below 45F for the next week, the tomatoes go into the ground, otherwise they go into a larger pot.

The two main things, as far as I am concerned, is not to disturb the root ball and not let the plant get root bound.

I sow seeds at one week intervals for three weeks. If the first ones set in the garden get killed by a freeze, there are still others to take their place.

OK -- so at first I was thinking that there "shouldn't" be a problem with using a bigger pot because when you think of how big the 'pot' is when you plant seeds directly in the garden soil.

But then I read...

jannz2 - the more you experiment the better. You will come up with ideas that work for you, and have fun along the way :)

I bought flats of 4" pots last year, and they worked great. No issues with root binding and their growth was perfect. Dunno about going larger, but I also grew some in soil blocks (no real soil, just a slurry of non-dirt components) that were 2" and then I transplanted those into the 4" pots, and they did very well also. Not sure what I'm going to do this year.

I've got 90+ seedlings. 30 each are in a community flat, and 30 more are in two Gardener's Supply Deep Cell Rooting Systems (each cell is 3.5" deep).

I'd love to hear that I don't need to pot up all these seedlings, but, to date, almost 2/3 of my seedlings have a 2nd set of true leaves, and plantout isn't until February 19th for them. Also, I've seen benefit of that root system along as much of the stem as possible, so, I've got my 16 oz. Solo cups prepped and ready to begin up potting tonight.

Mine need to go into individual containers to support the stems at this point. They'll also be moved from the germinating room to the cool room to grow on until plant out.

Linda

KathyWid says,
"The containers you use to start tomatoes have 3 jobs:
1. Be a safe home to your seedlings while they germinate
2. Keep away diseases
3. Help tomato sprouts grow 2 sets of leaves"

Pssst...Kathy, containers have absolutely nothing to do with keeping away disease nor the growth of their true leaves. As for "be a safe home", I believe nearly any container that will allow germination will offer that for an appropriate period of time.

As for transplanting, or more precisely, "up-potting", I do it and have great success with it. It's very easy to confuse "root damage" to "transplanting" (or up-potting) in the case of trying to stimulate new root growth. The idea is not to do any damage to the plant but yet to encourage new root growth.

As Honeybee said above, "The two main things, as far as I am concerned, is not to disturb the root ball and not let the plant get root bound." There is a most important concern. And by up-potting you can do so by not disturbing the root(ball) but just simply moving it (the plant) to a bigger container. Then again, I'm one of those who successfully transplant root crops, corn, and beans, which are often touted as suffering from root damage and not recommended to do so.

Lastly, that is an interesting report from the soil and health library but I noticed it is from 1927. I wonder if the plants we are working with these days are much more vigorous or have completely different growth habits than nearly 100 years ago?

Shoe

"

Whereas I am willing to concede that the report I shared is quite old, in response to Horseshoe's question, I must say that a tomato is still a tomato.

And, "psst" I also would like to add that container do have a lot to do with disease and growth. Containers, well, contain. And, if they don't have proper drainage, or are too small for proper root development, will kill the plants.

Well, with all that said, I guess I'll just sit back and wait for the 75 seedlings I just potted up to die, 'cause I used a fork to tease them apart from the community flat, and quite a bit of potting mix got knocked off. My roots were definitely disturbed...

Oh, well. I still have 100 or so more to pot up, so I'll try to do better next time.

"Containers, well, contain. And, if they don't have proper drainage, or are too small for proper root development, will kill the plants."

Good points, bella/basil. I agree, a too-small container will at some point cause root-bound but that's where up-potting comes into play, eh? As for drainage, that has more to do with the growing medium, not the container itself. I'm sure in 100% agreement with you if we're talking those peat pots though; those things have always given me problems with staying either too moist, getting too dry, or inhibiting root growth. No fun.

Linda, looks like another good experiment for you! You could take a pic of your fork attacking your root systems then months later that same fork shoveling a tomato slice into your mouth, eh? *grin

Shoe

Now, why am I not feeling that fork picture...

However, tonight, I WILL take a closeup picture of my newly potted up seedlings with those poor mangled, disturbed roots. Then I'll take a picture of those same seedlings in 3 weeks...they're scheduled for plantout starting February 19th...

We shall see...

Horseshoe, I decided to try the peat pots for (some) seed starting this year, and I've actually been fairly happy with them (so far) as far as drainage/water retention. I used plastic cups with drainage holes in the bottom last year, and although it wasn't bad, I convinced myself that I'd rather use them for potting up. I can see now why burying the peat pots probably wouldn't be a good idea, though, and that's really the main reason I bought them (and we're back to discussing disturbing roots and inhibiting their growth). I theory, they really sounded great!

Gymgirl, I started some plants differently, with (for example) my basil in a community pot. I just separated out the plants the other day, and they're just fine. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Thank you, BNB...

UberShoe is pulling for me, too!

Gymgirl: How many packages of tomatoe seeds did you plant? I did the same thing with brocolli. I love brocolli so I ordered 5 different kinds of it. I planted 2 packages outside in what is called a hot-bed, & all the seeds came up. I must have about 200 baby brocolli. Now, I have to transplant these things. What to do. I do not have the heart to just throw them away.

Behillman,
I didn't use whole packages, actually.

The Black Krims, Pruden's and Cherokee Purples were from my own saved seeds. I just sprinkled on the community flat, trying to space as best I could.

The Momotoros were about 10 seeds
The Sioux were about 10-15 seeds
The Bull's Hearts were about 10 seeds

Musta got zealous when I sprinkled...

Anyway, I've just been tipped off that our local Farmer's Market allows you to sell seedlings for a $1 fee for every $10 of sales you make. I think my excess seedling problem has just been solved...

I'm figuring on asking $1.75/seedling since they're organically grown indeterminates...(and to recoup my growing expenses...)

I'll post pics of each variety so folks will know what to expect...

^^_^^

GG, I sell them at $2.25 each or 4 for $8.00 and people snatch them up. After all, Bonnie Plants gets nearly two bucks for theirs now and I bet yours are nicer.

Just a suggestion.

Shoe

I SO LOVE YOU, UBERSHOE...!!!

And thanks for the encouragement, and the vote of confidence!

Aw, shucks, 'tweren't nuttin' (he says while looking at the ground and kicking an invisible rock with his foot....)

See ya'll...off to cook sumpin' good to eat!

Shoe

Shoe we are havin' Kelbosa gravy & biscuits 4 dinner - com'on up!

Ok. This might help. I was putzin' around the seedlings and have made another observation regarding the 4" nursery pots vs. the 2" 6-paks I used to sow bell pepper seeds. I took a picture that should show the difference between seeds sown the same day. All have received the same treatment, under the same conditions. Only difference is the size of the pots they were sown in.

Look at the size of the true leaves on the seedlings in the 4" pots vs. the seedlings in the 6-paks. And those are the largest of the 6-pak seedlings!

Next go 'round, I'll only sow seeds in 4" nursery pots or the 15-cell deep rooting system.

Gymgirl - from your photo it looks as though the 2" 6-packs were not filled to the top with soil. I think crowded roots slows down growth. I always prefer a pot that is taller than it is wide to accommodate the tap root. And, I pot-up as soon as the roots hit the sides of the pots to keep them from becoming crowded.

Honey,
You're right. I only filled the six-paks halfway, intending to add mix as the seedlings grew taller. But, I only filled the 4" pots halfway, too. They are clearly out-distancing the others.

Also, how can you tell when the roots hit the side of the pot?

Linda

Nice pics, GG. Good experiment, too.

I noticed the cells weren't filled all the way, too. Did you just fill the 4" pots recently, before taking the pic? They look full to me.

Also am wondering if they are the same type of pepper or two different varieties; that would come into play as well.

Shoe (who has some pepper seedlings just barely beginning their true leaves. Yay!)

Same seeds. Same day sown. Same soil level in the pots. Same rotation schedule under lights. Same everything, except the pots...

Pots filled only halfway.

Gymgirl -

Seedling Pots :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNBHYrv4-Gw

honeybeeNC,
By "topping off" I mean I added more soil around the stem to the top of the 4" pots.

Dyson - thanks for the link. Those newspaper pots were much better than the ones I made with a "pot maker"

I couldn't help wondering as I was watching the video - where is the camera? Do you think she hung it around her neck?

Gymgirl -

Do not know - but after building the first one out of a piece of computer paper and then one from newsprint I decided to double layer the news print and not tear it in half (sturdier) when I put plants into the ground I intend to tear the bottoms off first. The torn part will go to compost.

Going to start some "sweet" peas tomorrow - hope the seed is still viable, if not I should have time to get more. Please wish me luck. Did not do well with Peas last year.

Good luck with your peas, Dyson.

I didn't get any peas for the past two years - birds ate them as soon as they sprouted!