Cost effective vegetable gardening?

In my experience, having new transplants too long in the cold, especially cold soil, makes them much less productive later on. Sometimes, they won't even flower properly or set fruit. The shock is too much for them, even if they are hardened off. After they have developed their root system in 2 -3 weeks, then they can take 40 degree temps, no problem. The exception are those that are direct seeded. They can take cold temperatures much better at anytime in their development.

Maybe, you should put down some black plastic to warm up the soil first. Clear plastic sheeting can be bought pretty cheap at fabric stores. It can be put over a row covers when the temp drops down at night. Blankets also work, but they can trap too much heat causing the opposite problem. They must be removed as soon as the frost leaves the ground.

I heard on a gardening radio show this past Sunday that we shouldn't set out our maters until mid- April due to soil temps. Maters don't like cool temps and planting them too early when the soil isn't warm enough for their liking, they're not as productive and suffer a setback when trying to establish their root system.

If I set mine out in April I wouldn't get any fruit - lol. We shoot for Valentine's Day as a transplant date, but you have to be prepared to cover them if there is a freak frost.

dl - you're exactly right on direct seeded plants. They are hardier than their transplanted counterparts for the most part.

Locakelly, that is why I am glad I am too lazy and cheap to start my seeds indoors. I'm seeding my tomatoes directly outside tomorrow and sometime next week. It has worked well for me the last two years. Got sick of babying little seedlings to have them produce only a few tomatoes. With direct seeding if one doesn't make it, oh well, not like I put tons of times and money into that plant.

Carmen your raised beds are warmer than the surrounding soil and the 40s are not going to harm your tomatoes or peppers. We have mid 30s forecast for Sunday night with a good cloud cover. For once the clouds are useful because they usually prevent the frost. A front is moving through Saturday and back through on Monday so there's a good chance of some breeze which also helps prevent frost. For what it's worth, I'm not too worried unless the forecast changes. I will only plant out some tomatoes I have extras of, just in case. I'm already 2 weeks behind last year with the tomatoes. My biggest peppers are 3 or 4 weeks away from planting size.

Last year I planted out 3 Early Wonder tomatoes and kept 1 in the GH. The 3 got frosted and I thought they were history. I left them alone because I didn't need the space or the pots immediately and they actually came back better than the one in the GH. They put on a lot more branches and ripened fruit at least a week ahead of the normal one. With all the extra branches, they were a lot more productive. So if any of your plants suffer frost, it's not necessarily the end of the world.

This is a photo of 3 Connore des Andes plants. There were 4, all side by side in the GH and that last coldest night damaged them like frost. I threw out the worst one and decided to see what would happen. The larger one was undamaged and practically all the green on the smaller ones is new growth they made in 2 weeks. The one on the right has 2 main trunks now and I may pinch one off. The foliage on this cultivar is normally sparse and droopy so disregard that.

Kelly~I totally understand fried tomatoes if you wait, but here, especially this year with the wacky weather, I'm waiting. We're expecting a freeze this weekend. :(

Twiggy, glad to hear your Cornue des Andes are making it. You're right, the foliage is usually quite sparse on this variety; I wonder why! How are your Ste. Colombes? So far I only have one Marconi pepper plant up, and I planted two seeds per cell in eight cells! I don't know what it is with me and Marconis! I have them on a heat mat, and most everything else is up but a couple of hot pepper varieties.

It's going up to 70 here today but the nights are in the 30's.

dl ~ this is the opposite of what I have read, heard and experienced. Are springtime frosts different?

We have had a freaky winter this year. There were frost warnings out last month. We covered with flower pots, sheets, blankets and even a roll of insulation! There was light frost so I was glad I covered. The only problem I saw with the blankets (it was afternoon by the time I got everything uncovered) was the weight.
For our tomatoes we made special covers out of landscape fabric, the heavyweight woven stuff that goes under boulder walls. I left those on for two days because it also helped protect them from the ferocious winds.

What a chore! But better than loosing everything again.

All my WS tomato seedlings are still outside in 16 oz solo cups. I put them all into tall, clear Sterilite containers with lids and they are doing much better than sitting out unprotected. I was truly worried they wouldn't make it at all. But this morning, they actually look fatter!

I planted out only one bell pepper seedling last weekend as a test case. It looks fine, so I'm inclined to put a few more out this weekend. I have enough to stagger plant.

Yeah, Steph, in the 30s this Sat & Sun! Bummer! But, I can put my eBuckets under the hoop house, and cover with a sheet and then the 4 mil plastic I just bought. Glad I did, too!

Kelley,
I hear yah on the plant out timing. ALL my maters are 75-90 day indeterminates and needed to be out (Ideally) by mid-February for harvest by mid-June. This weather has truly shortened my growing window. Don't know if I'll get hardly any tomatoes...

Linda

Opposite how? Not told to use plastic or blankets? Or not to remove covering once frost leaves the ground?

This is what I did last year with my tomatoes. We do rarely get touch the ground frost. Most frosts are limited to December through January and usually only on rooftops. Last year, we had a few nights that got down to the low 30s in mid-March. I covered my row with blankets at dusk and removed them soon after dawn. If I left them on too long, the temp under the row covers would well above what it had been for the last week. I removed them to moderate the temp. Too much fluxations can be very bad for young seedlings. That is what I meant. Even though plastic traps in moisture, blankets are much better insulators and trap in heat.

As for putting tomatoes out when the soil temp is below 45-50, it will damage the seedlings. I learned this the hard way two years in a row. Put out some of my tomatoes when it was March not April. The soil temp dropped down to the low 40s for a few nights. These tomatoes were stunted and produced next to nothing the whole season. Some didn't even flower. Those that were set out later did fine.

Tomatoes have very sensitive roots. The really don't like to be transplanted. Put sudden cold soil temps on top of that, it will permanently setback their development. Wait to put them out until the soil temp is at averaging 55-60 degrees and the nightime air temp is consistently in the 45-50 degree range. If you can get the conditions under row covers or coldframe to this level, then go ahead and put them out. If not, wait a few weeks. Putting out plants too early will not get an earlier harvest. When the temps warm up, plants will take off. Soon they will catch up or even surpass those set out earlier on less than favorable conditions. It is degree days not the days on the back of the package that are important.

I can't stress the importance of monitoring your soil temperature once in the morning and late afternoon/early evening. I use an inexpensive candy thermometer from BigLots. Don't have to use anything fancy. This one works well and has lasted me 3 years. It just takes a few minutes to check and record. It will give you a good idea of the conditions and when to set things out.

DL,
Part of my dilemma is that I plant all my maters in 5-gallon eBuckets or larger containers. My soil temps do different things (I think). Should I take the temp in the buckets just as if taking the outside soil temp?

What's the procedure (not being funny). Just stick the tip down in the soil?

You folks in Texas especially have had the weirdest weather this year! Hope it gets better soon!

The temp needs to be taken drectly in the pot or wherever they will be transplanted. Take it at about 4". The soil temp at this depth is more stable. So, it will give you a better reading. Soil in pots are cooler than ground temps in the Winter and Spring and warmer in the Summer. Usually, it is about 5-10 degree difference.

I leave mine in the ground since our soil never freezes. Walk by and read it once in the morning before everything gets hetic and once in the late afternoon/early evening when everything calms down. It really only takes about 2 minutes. Remembering is the hard part.

Thank you guys for all the wonderful info, I decided yesterday to not cover the peppers to see if they would survive, and to my surprise they really did, I really hope the weather fluctuations don't damage the fruit production too much but to tell you the thruth I have never had too much luck with my previous years planting tomatoes so even if I can get a fair amount I'll be happy.

I actually built some frames to place the clear plastic on top, it almost looks like a hoop house, one thing that I have noticed is that if I leave it for too long and I don't uncover the beds in the morning right away, the temps really go high and it almost feels like a sauna, I would imagine this is not good either.

Temps are going to be fluctuating a lot this week we will get as high as 50's and as low as 38's. The peppers are not staked so I can easily cover that bed no problem if temps really go nuts but the tomatoes are really getting big and I have had to place a stake in many of them so they would not flop over, so covering those beds would be harder.

Yeah, I'm losing memory by the day -- faster than my cellphone picture microchip!

DL ~ I was told not to use plastics to cover. And after trying it to prove them wrong... I was wrong. I lost some plants that time.

As a point of interest this info was saved about row cover material via PDN newletter:

And, I may stand corrected but GymGirl ~ I believe you can use a meat thermometer to take the soil temp.

Actually I just took the temps in all my beds with my meat thermometer and was surprised that they were at 61 or 62 degrees, pretty good considering the fact that it feels chilly out.

Carminator, was that the afternoon temp? It may be in the mid 40s tomorrow morning. A few things about soil. Dry soil warms up faster than wet, but wet holds it better. Soil absorbs heat during the day and slowly releases it back out into the atmosphere. Row covers will trap some of this heat, making the soil warmer for longer. The coldest soil temp is about sunrise. The warmest is within an hour or two of sunset.

You can try to tweek things to make the soil warmer. Brick and stone will absorb heat on a sunny day and release it back to nearby soil. Do you have a warm brick or stucco area that you can move the pots to? Some of my beds are located right next to our house. It has stucco siding. This raises the heat about 5-10 degrees depending how much sun is out. I have been uncovering my row covers in the mid morning to the afternoon of warm, sunny and calm days to heat up the soil. It seems to hold over to the next day. The soil is still warm despite colder temps. You may need to experiement with this since some row covers are better at letting heat and sun in than others. They may not have to be removed to warm up the soil.

Podster meat and candy therometers work great. They designed to take extreme conditions. The elements don't effect them at all. They are also very accurate for something so inexpensive.

dlbailey, actually I took the temps around 8:30 p.m. I have a raise bed system on top of original grass, so they can't be moved. I also do have 4 earthboxes and those are sitting on top of my concrete pad out back, the temps on those were also higher.

What I've been doing is covering some of my most tender veggies at night with plastic and then uncovering by day, tonight is not too bad and even though its a little chilly, I can still wear a t-shirt and not freeze to death while working in the garden, Sunday temps are going to drop again so I will just cover the veggies again.

Please, disregard the advice to move the pots. You would have to be a gorilla or a strongman to move earthboxes.

So what is the weather like in AL? Here we are in the mid to upper 70s for the rest of the week. Early next week, it is supposed to drop down into the 60s. By next month, it will be in the 80s. Yeah!!! Spring is here.

My forecast is getting better. A few days ago Sunday night was supposed to get into the low 30's, then it was the mid 30's and now it's 37. Maybe by Sunday it will be 40. I think I'll plant bush beans tomorrow.

Glad you all are getting warmer weather. Looks like we're in the 80s for the next couple weeks. Perfect weather for my maters and peppers settling in...

The deal with plastic is that it is a good insulator, but do not let it touch your plants. The cold will damage your plants anywhere the plastic is touching. It's OK if you have something between the plant and the plastic - sheet, row cover, whatever...

Twiggy - I have the cutest little Largo Purple seedling I just planted out. You sent me those seeds a while back. I didn't realize the foliage was so beautiful!

Kelly, they start off looking like little birds! Very beautiful indeed. I'm growing same seeds from Twiggybuds, so say "Hi!" to the cuzins!
Linda

I hope you enjoy them. The more sun, the more purple. I think they'd be outrageously gaudy planted with yellow marigolds in a pot or flower bed. It looks like the cold killed my 3 year old I had in the gh but I'm watering the pot so some dropped pods can sprout.

dlbailey

thanks for sharing that detail info on the temp for different conditions of soil.

wonderful.

Janet

Oooohhh - if they like sun Linda we'll have the purplest pepper cuzins around - lol. They are so pretty. Twiggy - did you eat them? They are supposed to be real hot right? One of those I need to be careful not to touch and then rub my eye - lol. Did that once with Serranos making guacamole - oh the pain!

They supposedly don't have any flavor but my son is a pepper freak and he says they're very hot. The neighbors use them in refried beans. I grow several hots and have no idea why but they prefer the Largos. Last year I grew several Jalapenos just to be neighborly and they let them turn red and then said they were too hot. It makes no sense to me.

lol - can't please them huh? I have heard they are very hot. I think my kids would kill me if I used them in refried beans. The dried Anchos are hot enough. Excited to try them, carefully that is - lol. Jalapenos do get pretty hot if you let them turn red. I couldn't believe the difference. I now pick mine in the green stage unless someone really wants a red one.

I googled the Largos, and, if I remember correctly, they rate somewhere in the 30,000s on the kelvin (hot) scale.

I also read somebody unknowingly popped a mouthful and was on fire for two days!

Boy I wish I could take that much heat, a jalapeno is as far as I can go without dying, I have a horrible problem with heartburn so all the extremely spicy food that I used to love and enjoy is off limits.

Temps seem to be getting better but I am still kind of skeptical, my DH always keeps telling me to place all the plastic away in the attic but I am still fearful of the unexpected weather.

Maybe next year I'll be careful and will start my maters a little later in the season, this way I can be sure not to run into the same problem of having to plant early when the weather is still s little chilly.

I'm growing pequins this year. They are a pepper relative that is supposed to be very hot. Interesting thing about birds is that they do not have receptors for capsaicin. But mammals do and really hate the sensation. You can put ground pepper in bird seed and poultry feed to keep rats, mice and squirrels away. It works very well for me. Birds are real pepper connoissuers, though. They love harbenero and jalepeno but do not care for pico de gallo. It is funny watching them chow down on pepper ladden food without recourse.

dlb I think you just solved the mystery of what was happening to my Tepins last year. I'd see a bunch about ready and the next day some would have disappeared without a trace. They're the size of piquins. The gh blocks my view of the patch so they were probably filling up on peppers while I was 20' away. They didn't mess with the others though.

Carmen you might as well start your tomatoes early again next year because we might get lucky and have normal weather. The early varieties I planted out 2 weeks ago all have big buds and the Bloody Butcher has 2 opened. I took the row cover off last weekend and I'm not getting it out again. I might be crying Monday morning but I think they're protected a lot by being up against the garage.

I don't know where to put this. Someone posted the other day (on *some* thread that I can't find now), that they'd noticed the potato peels in their compost pile were sprouting.

I checked all of those little white shoots in MY compost pile that I thought were weeds or something, and they were sprouts from potato peels! Hooray. So I have now set up some areas in the garden for them, with plenty of compost below them and a layer of shredded oak leaves above them and I'm hoping to get some potatoes to grow for me.

Anyway, since I can't find the original post, I'll just post this here because free is pretty darned cost effective!

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. In years past, I have applied half decomposed compost from cold piles. Always, get a few squash, pepper and tomato plants that just pop up. Swear that they always produce the hardiest, most productive plants. I harvested one year a few tasty butternut squashes from a volunteer plant that was vining around my tomato bed. This last week, I pulled out several 4" tall tomato plants. Felt really sad about it, but I really needed to double dig this bed. Ironically, it was being prepared for tomatoes.

Good Luck on your potatoes!! Sure you will get a good harvest.

LiseP, actually in the old days they use to plant potaoes this way, they peeled the potatoes and just planted the peels which produced potatoes, my mother in law was raised in a farm and this is the way they did their potatoes.

Since this is my first year growing them I decided to not peel them and chit them instead but if I had more space or land I would definetely try it.

Another really cool thing I was reading about cabages is that once you cut the cabage from the stem, you can leave the plant in the ground and just cut a cross on the cut part of the stem that is in the ground and the plant shall produce little cabages, I thought this was really cool, who knows I might try it and see for myself if it works or not. Another saving tip.

carminator1

that is great info on the cabbage.

thanks for sharing.

Janet

Carminator1,
Girl, you've been holding all that cabbage info in your pocket until now? I'm just about to cut down EIGHT cabbages! EIGHT! So glad you gave up the knowledge!

SMILE...

Glad I checked in here. I have a question regarding putting leaf mold in my potato planters.

I have beautiful, earthy, year-old leaf mold on the patio that I harvest every year, and today's the day. My potato spuds are topping their containers, and I hit up the idea of filling them to the tops with the leaf mold. Otherwise, I'd have to go spend $$ on potting mix. My intent after filling the containers is to build wire cages around them and continue hilling up with dried leaves until the vine dies back.

Is this a good idea? Don't wanna introduce anything detrimental to the potato spuds, as they are doing really well.

Thanks!