The method I have been using is a middle ground in between those two, carminator1: mowing, letting the plants that have been mowed wilt for one day, then tilling under. The wilting is supposed to keep the soil microbes from peakiing too much and producing too hot a decomposition, which can lose nutrients, as dlbailey mentions. I believe its purpose is to decrease the amount of water the plants contain. I am not a soil scientist. I am just doing what I have read about, and it seems to work pretty good in my environment. My soil is rocky clay. Clay itself has a lot of nutrients, and I think it's great for gardening, but it can use all the biomass it can get to make it lighter, IMO. Like I said, I have tons of worms in my soil and it produced well last year--my biggest problem was the cool summer, not fertility. I do believe that the extra flowering attracted a lot more predatory bugs. I already had massive amounts of garden spiders here which kept me from having to use any pesticides the previous year. Then last year I had wasps hunting for caterpillars on my brassicas and had no brassica damage at all.
I have heard of methods where you leave the stuff on top. There's one method used for tomatoes where you grow hairy vetch and then cut it down and plant tomatoes through the stuff that you just leave on top. I have not tried that, but I have used living mulches with tomatoes, both purslane (which was really cheap because it was just growing all over in that garden anyhow, so it was free--I just helped it along) and white clover.
Cost effective vegetable gardening?
I think that depends on your situtation. You may want to experiment in two areas of the garden to see what works better.
I'm becoming partial to no till. This process is slower but retains more nutrients. However, if you need to get the nitrogen quickly, tilling may be a better option. You can even split the difference by leaving the greens on top but breaking up the soil to break up the roots. Don't be afraid that roots can't find there way through untilled soil or that decomposing roots will interfere with their growth. (Last year, I planted my warm season crops right on top of my cold season ones without tilling. It was actually more productive.) Unless you are dealing with shallow soil, crusting or low nitrogen levels, this really should not be a problem. I have been slowly coming to except this myself. It is really hard to get over the whole till every season mindset.
Something I have noticed when I did layered gardening in the past, is that the roots actually take a few months not weeks to completely decompose. If I gently broke up the top few inches with a rake and added a few inches of compost, I could plant almost immediately.
One more thing, recently I discovered that there really is a nice thick layer of fungus really does exist a half foot below the surface of undisturbed soil. Recently, I dug up a section of my lawn and saw a nice fungal mat. The soil really does heat when you till in OM, too. This just happened when I tilled in some mostly decomposed compost. It sent the soil temp up 5-10 degrees in less than a day. The compost is almost completely broken down after only a few weeks. I've also noticed that no tilled areas really do retain their humus much better than areas tilled. So, most of this info comes from personal experience not just websites and texbooks. It has also made me reconsider what I have been doing these last few years.
Today, I just bought a big bale of straw for $9, another bag of free coffee grounds and some more $15 garbage cans to make compost bins. My veggie garden is starting to come along. Can't wait to actual put some of the ideas I have read on DG into practice.
To try to this back to the original topic: Twiggybuds, from many discussions i've had, it seems that organic production is actually much less expensive than conventional. It is really the lack of subsidies and the cost of certification that drives the organic prices up. Many farmers practice sustainable/organic methods but can't reap the higher prices due to this reason.
The low cost/low input of organic gardening, in addition to sustainablity, is why I started to doing it in the first place.
I agree that subsidies and regulation are geared to keeping big ag alive and well. There are lots of recent findings that prove organic and even non organic small farmers can meet or exceed the conventional big ag production methods.
Someday they're going to realize they've starved their soil and it will have to be rebuilt. Of course it will take time for all the toxins to leach out and I don't know what the masses will eat in the meantime. Maybe the small farmer and us backyard gardeners will be the heroes to the rescue.
To answer the question about cost effective. Because we garden on a pretty large scale and need massive amounts of compost to start a section it would not be cost effective if we didn't make our compost. We do make compost, the piles are huge and are turned with a bobcat.
We have had a wet winter this year, but in other years the mulches we used sure made a difference in our water use.
Conventional farming would be easier!
Here is a photo of our compost piles, the bobcat is over in the left hand corner.
So, with the compost, is it cost effective? Does the mulch cut down on your water costs? Right now, we aren't metered in or area. Why not? I'm not sure. We are constantly suffering through droughts. But, when we finally do, I will be ready. Even then, I want to be more responsible.
Do you use green manure in addition to compost? Where can you source that much raw materials for your compost piles? Do you prefer to use compost instead of just letting OM decompose in the fields due to health standards, pest problems or time involved?
I am not sure is convential farming would be easier in the longterm. Wouldn't that degrade the soil, while your farming practices improves it? Doesn't healthy soil cut down on pesticides and fertililizers?
Phoenix's soil in general is mostly clay with caliche - alkaline. Above ground is one of the best ways to go here but I think because of the soil it make gardening, at least on a home-scale level, more expensive. Just last fall I put in an in-ground garden which I dug out by hand. Had to buy lots of soil amendment & fertlizer. I've put lots of money into it.
Bottom line is, so far I haven't financially broke even with garden but I have to agree with the other posters about the intangibles. I have grown carrots, which grow well here over winter, soley because I think they taste better and my daughter loves to pull them. My son likes fresh tomatoes. Both like sugar snap peas, which are winding down now that its warming up outside. Gardens bring in beauty and creates a green haven for us.
All you folks are in the warmer regions and I would think that you would compost regularly, or at least covering the soil around your plants with grass clippings, leaves or straw to save on water. I do so here in Maine. I'm a raised bed gardener and I use grass clippings for the most part. I shake them loosely over my beds to they don't mat up where water can't soak through. Not only does it keep weeds down but it saves me watering daily. In the fall I mulch my leaves and place them on the beds too. It all breaks down in the end ayway just a little slower than composting in a pile (although I do have composting bins too.).
I generally use the tilling method but I think you folks have changed me on that and I thank you for it. I'll probably still rake in the compost though. And yes I do garden organically and it has saved me money, although I will confess to using artifical fertilizer on occasion (but rarely). I also rotate my crops. Peace
Frank, I originally decided my garden didn't need to be tilled after the first year, one because the used tiller I had bought, broke down and two because running the tiller wore me out. But over the last few years, I've run across articles or discussions about why tilling isn't always a good thing. I don't remember all of the facts or reasons that were mentioned, but the opinions stated were that tilling destroys the "life" in the soil. IMHO, a new garden space only needs to be tilled once or twice to get it started (or some serious double-digging done). When you add mulch on the soil surface, lots of activity starts going on between the two layers, the mulch decomposes and it gets mixed into the soil, the soil improves and you get great vegetables.
I found this on waldeneffect.org:
So, what's wrong with tilling? Although we can't see it, our soil is teeming with microscopic and macroscopic life, most of which lives in the top three inches of soil. Tilling churns up soil, mixing the microorganism playground with the lower soil and resulting in a lot less life. Although you might expect that the microorganisms folded deeper into the earth just expand their populations, lack of air and sun quickly kills them off.
For further reading, search for "why is tilling bad for garden soil". That produced several good links for me.
After briefly reading a few articles, I feel like an ignoramous. Supposedly, I have never tilled because I have never used a rototiller in my garden. Always used a spadefork, shovel and hoe instead. The worst I did was sift through the soil a few years ago to get out a load of pea gravel and rocks. Was very careful to seperate the first and second feet of soil and put them back in the right order. Since then, only worked compost in the first 6-8" of soil about twice a year. Have mainly decomposed compost as a mulch, not leaves or straw. Does this mean I practice a type of no-till by default?
Yep! :D
How about the double digging method, I am reading a really insteresting book that explains this method, would this method be harmful to the organisms as well since you are indeed digging up the dirt?
We don't till because our ground is so dang hard! Clay soil baked by the sun isn't very easy to till, unless you have a backhoe! We amend like crazy and turn the soil about 6" down. Then, we add grass clippings and compost to the top and just keep turning it in. We do mulch heavily to protect roots from the scorching sun and to keep the soil temps down, not to mention to conserve water.
Hello, don't mean to intrude, but carminator1 mentioned double digging. Isn't it wonderful when knowledge is passed down from one generation to the next. When I was 9 or 10 years old I was introduced to this simple, inexpensive, and effective method of gardening. First dig a trench 2 shovels wide and 1 shovel deep, laying this dirt aside for the length of the row. Then redig the trench another 2 shovels wide and 1 shovel deep, but this time as you dig a shovel of dirt raise it as high as you can and throw it back into the hole it came from to shatter the soil. Next you haul old manure from the stables and place a layer 4 inches deep in the trench. When the manure is in place, take a 10 pound grubbing hoe and chop the manure into the subsoil. Now you can shovel the original soil back into place again raising it as high as possible to shatter it. This method was used to prepare new rows in the garden and the ground remained productive for several years without redigging (thank god). Total cost 50 cents labor and cold water.
dlbailey, thank you for the thread. Claud
Carninator, bear in mind I'm only relating what I've read and have experienced in my own gardens. I haven't really done an indepth study of micro organisms...
From what I've read on sites discussing double-digging, yes, it will still do some damage to micro organisms, but not as much as mechanical tilling would. But, IMHO, there are times when there is no choice but to either till or double dig a space to loosen the soil, which allows for better drainage and lessens the foothold of weeds. Most cases of new ground being broke, will require a second tilling or turning 10 days later to kill additional weed seeds that have surfaced. After the garden rows are established, if the rows are not walked on, they will stay reasonably loose, eliminating the need for future tilling or double digging. By amending and mulching, the micro organisms will start multiplying again. That being said, I have heard of people who have planted in soil without any preparation, then mulched immediately. I've done that with a couple of flower beds and the plants did fine. In the past, I think improving the soil "tilth" was the main focus. whereas in recent years, the focus has been shifted to soil structure.
Whether to use a tiller or double-dig is a personal choice and the decision should be based on what you feel your soil needs.
Claud, wish my grandparents and parents were that passionate about gardening. I was introduced to gardening so long ago I can't recall what age. My dad was trying to grow a veggie garden before I was born. Unfortunately, it was the 80s when the only info was about chemical inputs and heavy tilling. We didn't have a rotiller so he still hand dug the rows (before the concept of beds and intensive gardening hit the masses). But he did use chemical fertilizers like miracle grow and chemical pesticides. He kept this up until I was about 11 when he just gave up due to excessive work and low yields. So, I took over and discovered his old Back to Basics Book. Didn't have much money because I was a preteen. But I did know enough to bury all the kitchen and yard waste in the garden. Sometimes, my parents were nice enough to buy me seeds and starts. One year, I plant popcorn and beans from store. Had some nice crops those few years for very little money. Went to high school and gave it up. Then went to college became a vegetarian and restarted a garden out of nessecity. Transfered to another school. There I was shown the way and introduced to permaculture, not-till, organics and sustainability. Use to work at the university garden and loved every minute. Kept it up in grad school and have never looked back. These last few years it seems that everyone is starting a garden for monetary reasons. It is good to be ahead of the curve.
I think soil prep has a lot to do with your type of soil and weather conditions. My sandy soil needs more fertilizers but water and air can penetrate it easily. It is dry were I am so mulch is very important. Clay soils need less fertilization but more amendments to loosen it up. There is a video on the organic gardening forum about synegistic gardening http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1067589/. It is a nice visual demonstration of no-till. The women in the video discusses that when she originally started no-till it was a failure. She had to adapt the techniques to her situation.
Another consideration is what is available to you and at what cost. In CA, every municipality and county has to have free or low cost compost as part of their recycling program. Stables are generally around and may let you take their manure for free if you scoop and haul it. Green manures/cover crops can be a simple as buying fava beans and oat groats from the store and throughing it out into the yard. They can also be bought at many places online or feed stores for not very much. Leaves, punpkins and straw are pretty abundent towards the end of Fall. I would stay away from Christmas trees, though. They are sprayed with flame retardents. If you have or know someone that has chickens, rabbits, hamsters or doves their manure and bedding are great fertilizers. Aquarium and pond water (provided no harch chemicals are added to the water) are fantastic. Pond scum can also be great composted. You will have to do your own research on this as I am not the familiar with it. Clean beaches can supply ample seaweed and shells. Also, do you own research on this. Organic amendments are really just refuse to most people. If you look around, someone wants to dispose of garden gold. Here is site with the NPK of many different OM http://www.thechileman.org/guide_fertilizer.php
Thank you all for all the wonderful help, this is a great thread! I am trying to read and to learn about different methods of amending soil etc..., the double digging method book has been used by the Dervaes family ( the famous Pasadena, Cal, family) that grow lots of veggies in their back yard and I thought it was worth my time to try to read it since they are so successful with their own garden, the books is called ( how to grow more vegetables than you ever thought possible on less land than you can imagine) it talks about double digging, composting, biointessive gardening, etc...
I myself ended up placing raised beds in my garden because of lack of space, the fact that I have 2 little ones and 2 dogs, so I thought raise beds would be easier for a newbie like myself, the boxes were just placed on top of the already existing turf, I did not even digged it prior of placing the raise beds, I thought it was too much work to do that and I just wanted to be lazy, just placed some really bad dirt from home depot mixed with some cow manure and amended a little with alfalfa hay and green manure to help the soil a little. I am also homecomposting and also vermicomposting as well and looking into maybe bokashi composting.
So far I can say that I have spent a lot of money building the boxes, the purchased dirt, alfalfa hay etc... but I really just started this past winter and at least I was able to eat lettuces and other greens for about 5 months without having to purchase this items from the store, so in a way I did save money since we eat salads on a daily basis. Now I am ready to go and plant some tomatoes, and other summer veggies, and I am really hoping that maybe I can have a good harvest to be able to can and process some for winter use.
Carminator, there's nothing wrong with the way you did your raised bed. Granted it cost you a little money to set it up, but you did everything right and it's done. Add a little homemade compost through the year and you're good to go. I"m sure worms have already found your raised bed. They make tunnels through the soil below, which allows water and air in, and leave behind worn castings, which are a fertilizer. There's really no good reason to work harder than you have to.
Msrobin is right, Carminator. Your raised bed probably cost up front. But the cost per year will go down as you use it year after year. So, it probably just seems like a lot right now. Labor is also a cost. If the time devoted to digging a garden can be better used elsewhere, than a raised bed is a good option. Another thing to remember is that the cost of produce is enough that a few hundred dollars on a raised bed can be recooped in a year or two.
That's exactly what I thought myself, right now a lot of $ is spent but in the longrun I really think it will be worth it. I still have to build 3 more raise beds. The only problem is my homecompost it is just taking forever to decompose, I do have worms on it but it just does not heat up at all, I am wondering if this is weather related or not?
As far as worms in my beds yes I am finaly seeing them, which really makes me happy. This winter I had very little bug problems, just a few catterpillars and aphids, did some picking and spraying with water mostly and just a little bt, so I think doing things the organic way is definetely more cost efficient.
This is an excellent thread! Thanks so much for starting it...
C - another cost effective method of bug control is birds - lol. Since putting out feeders, I have beautiful birds to look at and they eat a lot of bugs. Hornworms, look out!
Add more 'greens' and make the pile bigger, wet it down and turn it often. I'm lucky enough to have a steady supply of chicken manure and coffee grounds. Boy, does that heat things up and get it going. If you have a Starbucks or other coffee shop nearby, you can collect enough green within a few day's collections. Try to add more stuff to your pile. Most compost piles don't really get hot until at least 2x2 feet, a square yard being the most optimal. Keep it realitvely moist, too. Dry compost piles take longer to breakdown.
I was wondering if there was a way to suggest frugal/cost effective/cheap gardening as a seperate forum. There seems to be enough interest. I am sure that there is lots of people that have some information and want even more info about how to save money gardening. Do you think that it would be a good choice? Or would it come under frugal living? I am fairly new to the forums and don't want to ruffle any feathers.
Scientist announced today that they have found the gene that enables legumes to fix nitrogen and explains the role of microbes. This just reinforces what we've been discussing.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100301091552.htm
Dlbailey ~ regarding frugal/cost effective/cheap gardening: It may be suitable for the frugal forum or better yet the Sustainable Living forum or even its' own forum but in my opinion, I think it will attract more views and serve to educate far more gardeners right here. Many folks will come here with gardening questions and read the threads for answers. Not much gardening discussion on the Frugal forum and not as diverse a group of viewers on Sustainable Living forum. Of course ~ that is expressing my two cents. And that might be all it is worth.
That said, I have followed with interest and learned from this thread. Thanks much for the thread and the NPK link, very interesting.
Dl, I'd suggest just keeping it in this forum and "continuing" to a new thread as needed. Several forums have one thread which is more of a "chat thread" where ideas are kicked around and discussed, or projects shared and it seems to work. No specific topic, just a sharing of frugal gardening ideas.
Your suggestion to add more "greens' was great. I needed to hear that to get my compost going again.
I agree with Kelly, this is a wonderful thread!
Darned, I've got to learn to type faster. LOL! But Podster said it sooo much better. :) Maybe something like...Over the fence: frugal gardening ideas
And back to the topic, Twiggy, thanks for that link!
Edited to add: Oops, I plagerized (?) the "over the fence" phrase from Jayryunen on the Homesteading Forum...didn't do it intentionally.
And again to correct spelling...
This message was edited Mar 10, 2010 7:39 PM
This message was edited Mar 10, 2010 7:43 PM
twiggy thank you for the link it is really great and just like you said it does reinforce the organic method.
dlbailey I know the compost pile is wet enough, so that is not the problem so maybe I do need to find more greens, I guess I'll have to look around for more cooffee grounds as well, I have been adding some dirt from the holes I made to plant my fruit trees as well hopefuly this will place some microbes in the pile. As far as making it bigger, well, I am making my compost in a biostack, and it is almost all the way to the top. I really can't have a open comost system first because of the dogs and second for the little kids, I am sure they would play in it.
Carminator, its company policy for Starbucks to give out used coffee grounds on demand. Most of the time they are happy to give it away. You shouldn't have problems getting some from them.
Don't worry about introducing microbes to your compost pile. There are already there. As disgusting as it sounds, the bacteria and fungus that breaks down produce is already on it long before it hits your store. Animals extrude both the anerobic and aerobic bacteria that excelerates manure breakdown. In fact, bacteria, mold, fungus and yeast is all around in the water, air and dirt. It will surely find its way to your compost pile. Some people like to add a package compost starter for extra insurance. I never found it nessecary.
You can add unsulphured molasses to feed the microbes and get everything going a little faster. Make sure it is unsulphured to not damage the microbes. It also gives extra calcium and potassium. Blackstrap has the most nutrients.
I've read that a handful of even the cheapest dry dogfood scattered when you add a new layer of stuff to the compost will jumpstart the microbes. I think it said the protein is what really boosts the population.
Dlb is right. Just think about how fast something will go bad sitting on the counter and much more so if it's been cut open. I just keep topping up my compost pots with wet coffee grounds, peelings and egg shells. It decomposes very fast. In warm weather the insects are attracted and speed things up even more.
The pot most convenient for me to dash out to gets disturbed almost daily and I was blaming it on some kind of animal, maybe a possum. Anyway I finally caught on. It's a big mocking bird that comes almost daily and scratches around in the pot like a chicken in the dirt. I'm guessing he's finding worms since there aren't any flies this time of the year. He's welcome but I wish he wouldn't scatter coffee filters on the ground.
I agree with podster's assessment and msrobin. These rambling discussion threads are always a favorite.
Well, here is a little more rambling. I want to know if anyone has expereince with root knot nematode and not-till gardening. There was a terrible problem towards the end of the year in my garden. Pulled out the whole plants (roots and all) and threw them away. Left the ground bare all Fall and Winter and turned it over a few times to expose the nematodes to the air. Hoping that this took care of the problem. This year I am planting from seeds not starts to insure that none are reintroduced to the area. The problem is that I don't know what to do if this arises again in a no-till scenerio. I read that a good fungal mat will keep parasitic nematodes down. I'm sure over time things should balance out. Eventually, the nematodes should stop being a problem. Right? Our soil here is dry (understand they like moist soil) but sandy (they like this). Anyone in the Southeast and Southwest that does no-till? What do you do about nematodes? Here is a linkt o the no-till thread I started, if you want to confine the answers to there http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1080272/
One thing that is intregal to being cost-effective gardening is proper planning. I was thinking about this yesterday on my way home from the grocery store. In a few weeks, I will have to take out my cool season crops for my warm season ones. If I had started my compost pile a month or two earlier, I would have had it ready in time when I put in my cool season crops. Then, I could have planted the warm season within the cool season plants. Because of my poor planning, another bed had to be quickly planted with the same crops. The current bed will end up being a waste of time and money. Obviously, not a good use of resources.
My suggestion is to make a clear plan of what needs to be done and planted. Find out what your first and last frost dates and for those in hot regions the approximate time 80-90 degree weather arrives. Here are links to planting zone http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/ushzmap.html and heat-zone http://www.ahs.org/pdfs/05_heat_map.pdf maps. I also like Sunset Climate Zone Maps http://www.sunset.com/garden/climate-zones/ Weatherunderground, Weather.com and NOAA have weather records going back decades. Weatherunderground is the most navigable. This will give you a better idea of weather patterns in your area.
For example, the end of April is when lettuce and other cool season vegetable bolt in my area. Lettuce takes about 2 months to first harvest. So, I can plant around mid-January under row covers to get the most crop before the end of the season. Tomatoes set when nighttime temps are 55-65 and daytime is 75-90. This is mid-April to late May in my area. If I set out plants in late March to early April, also under row covers, then they will blossom when it is the best time for fruit set.
Of course weather patterns very year to year and everyone has their own micro-climate. This were garden journals and talking to fellow gardeners comes in handy.
http://www.organicguide.com/gardening/soil/maintaining-soil-fertility/
I found this article that explains establishing soil fertility through natural processes, such as no-till systems.
What I have to add may have already been said. I don't have time to read the whole thread right now. Hopefully tomorrow. But I go for the biggest bang for my buck.
I buy pretty much only organic, so I see what costs the most organically at the store. I've decided after a couple years of potatoes that given the amount of work and space, organic potatoes don't cost all that much. My own crops were not that huge in proportion to the amount of space they take up.
I find tomatoes to be easy to grow in abundance and I process and freeze most of them. We use a lot of canned tomato products, so now I just go out to my freezer. I got thru the year and only recently had to start purchasing canned tomato products. So hopefully next year I can put even more up.
Last year I started putting in artichokes from seeds. Most everything I do is from seed. This year I am going to put in asparagus crowns. This will be my first year for that.
So I go with what I know I can grow successfully and we eat a lot of. I try and attempt something new every year. This year I'm planning to attempt carrots.
Gwenda, I think you're going to love your asparagus beds. I have two and have to give some away. I can't wait for this years harvest. It always comes thru. Peace
Gwendalou
Have you seen the prices on greens!! We do organic too and the greens should be called gold ingots. I'm growing so many greens this year, not lettuce, but kale, collards, chard etc just because I can't deal with the prices anymore.
I grow a ton of lettuce. This year I'm also going to grow kale and chard because even tho we don't eat it, I want it to feed my chickens. So I'm going to be growing stuff just for them and then extras of stuff that we both eat, like lettuces, broccoli, etc.
Frank, I'm doing some reading on asparagus and am getting nervous about how much space they take up. The place I was going to put them is around the border of the potager. The border is 2 feet in depth. How far apart should I plant the crowns? Do they really get 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide? How much sun do they need? Parts of the border gets less sun than other parts.
How many little asparagus thingies do you get from each crown once the plant gets going?
I was reading yesterday that the 10 richest counties in the USA ring Washington DC. Evidently the produce vendors are going for their piece of the pie.
These Little Gems have been out for about 3 weeks. I've got 6 more in the GH that are doing better. Already the sun is too intense and I'll have to move these under a tree with dappled shade.
I don't even know what mine look like right now. They've been in the coldframe and its been raining since fri so I haven't been able to go out and check on them. I'm starting to get restive.
DC also has the highest infant and maternal mortality rates not just in the nation but in the world. I think its a screaming disgrace. Here in the capitol of the richest nation on earth! You wouldn't believe the level of hunger here as well. Dicken's England barely holds a candle to it. We live in a relatively upscale if old section just outside the city line, but just a couple blocks away families are on foodstamps and can bearly send their kids to school with shoes and the prices in their grocery store is just as bad and the quality is a scandel. It seems like they send the old stuff over there to get rid of it. What really bothers me is that most of them have no health insurance so women aren't seeing a doctor until they deliver, and children have actually died from abcessed teeth. I'm an RN and some of the skin conditions and cases of rickets and allsorts peventable diseases I've seen all because of poor nutrition... And one mealy tomatoe costs $5 and that idiot senator had the gall to stand up in congress and say noone in this country has died for lack of health insurance. It just makes me so mad. Sorry to get off topic.
Yehudith