Turface on bromeliads?

Tapla? I am getting ready to pot up some bromeliads. They are bare root and it looks like they came from a sandy peat kind of soil... I was considering using turface (for weight and drainage) and wondered if it would need amendments, like broken up sphagnum or chunky orchid bark (with charcoal), or perlite, or would you use it straight? I poured water through and then poured the medium in my hand and it was damp, crumbly, and fluffy, so that was the coolest.

I think unscreened Turface will hold too much water. Screened Turface might be ok, but remember that it holds much more water than it appears to hold. I would really like to see you build a mix of equal parts of

screened Turface
crushed granite (grower size) or #2 cherrystone
and uncomposted pine or fir bark (1/8-1/4)

because I'm quite sure you'll be very happy with it. Once you have the ingredients to make the basic soil, you can +/- the Turface and granite to fine tune the water retention of the soil for every individual plant you pot/repot.

If you decide to grow in a soil with Turface or Turface/granite as its base, we'll need to talk a little about supplying good nutrition. I'm up for it if you are. ;o)

Al

I was just reading at the other forum where I can read all the posts. I know you prefer foliage pro, I was looking for a good price to try it. I have the broms now, and no granite and too big of bark mix :)... Help. How do you find the bark fines? All I can find are shredded splinters that last only a year on the surface, let alone under ground, lol. Ok, so maybe I'll just throw them in my usual soil mix until I can gather the rest of the materials.

I would love to learn more science in potting mediums/nutrient programs. I am very interested... I would also like your advice on how to find the right kind of bark for the 511 mix. I want to try these soils on begonias who hate wet feet, and aroids who love a crumbly mix of this and that....

Ok, for the time being, they are "planted" in sheets of damp newspaper and sphagnum moss, lol. Did I lose you? Sorry, I am actually very excited to try a different potting soil. I find that I am always trying to fluff up my peat mixes, so anything that keeps a crumble to it sounds interesting. I looked for mulch today, but nobody had anything out, and I'm not sure that mulch is the right product. I know there is a place that sells composting mulch, but it is slivery and shaggy looking rather than nuggets of any size. Does the turface MVP need screening? It looks pretty uniform, and it smokes when I watered it, lol. Oh, well, sorry if I drove you nuts...

To avoid confusion, lets stay focused on the gritty soil mix for this discussion. If you want more information on the 5:1:1 mix, be sure to read the stickies at the top of the container gardening forum. The science re how water behaves in soils and it's effect on plants can be had there as well. Of course, you can always just pop up with other specific questions when you have them.

The bark is sometimes difficult to find at first. For the gritty mix, I buy 4 cu ft bags of pre-screened fir bark from an orchid supply place just NW of CHI. I bought 15 bags this summer, which will last a good long while. Apparently, there is a bark product (fir) you can buy at pet stores called 'Repti Bark' or something like that. I haven't looked at to see if the particle size is appropriate, but others say it works well. By the pictures, it LOOKS like it could be exactly what I use, but again, I can't tell. Size is important.

Those are the main ingredients and I've found they're well worth looking for. BTW - the Turface 'smokes' because it's such a hot commodity. ;o)

In the picture below, the product I use for the gritty mix (1/8 - 1/4" fir bark) is at 12. The other 3 products at the perimeter would all be acceptable (pine bark) if the fines are screened out. The soil in the middle is the 5:1:1 mix when it's dry.

Al

What is the role of the pine or fir bark in the gritty mix? In my search for tiny bark, I found some rubber mulch that was very small and made me curious if it could perform the same function. If the bark is used to create air spaces as well as provide a semi porous surface.... Well, does it do more than that?

The bark is just filler and a nutrient sink. It has about the same water retention properties as what equal volumes of Turface and granite mixed together have. If you prefer, you can grow in some variation of equal parts (by volume) of Turface:crushed granite. You'll just need to fertilize a little more frequently is all, which is no problem if you're fertilizing @ low doses each time you water.

Skip the rubber mulch, please. Even if the size was appropriate, you wouldn't gain anything by using it that you can't get with Turface & grit. Personally, I have reservations about using it as mulch, and those reservations increase considerably as I consider it as part of a soil.

Al

While I'm all for recycling, I have always "wondered" about that rubber mulch! The thought of using it in my garden or around my plants just didn't sit right. I found this information while googling: http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Rubber%20mulch.pdf

Plantladylin, that was an eye opener. I didn't know, I thought the rubber was inert, but that doesn't make sense. I don't think I want that in my soil (or environment).

Yeah, it's hard to know what to do with all the millions of old tires out there ... burn them and they give off toxic fumes, turn them into mulch and they end up leaching toxins into the soil. I remember years ago painting a couple of old tires, stacking them and using them as a planter in the yard. I've thought about it a lot the past few years and remember the days when there was only one car in a family ... nowadays I know people with four and five kids of driving age, the parents each have their own car and each child has his/her own vehicle as well!

I use a tractor tire as a composter, lol. I wouldn't mind doing the cut tire planter. Granny and Grandpa had portulaca growing in theirs.

I had thought about using tires as weedeater guards or for raised beds, lol.

As Turface is made from clay, it would not be a good medium for Bromeliads which are usually epiphytes and do best with organic growing mediums.

For a healthy growing medium for Bromeliads consider Coconut Coir (Coco Coir).

http://www.nurseriesonline.us/specialistNurseries/Bromeliads.html

I would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind why Turface might be unsuitable for Broms.

Sphagnum peat and coir have nearly identical water retention curves. They both retain about 90-95% of their volume in water at saturation and release it over approximately the same curve until they both lock water up so tightly it's unavailable for plant uptake at about 30-33% saturation. Coir actually has less loft than sphagnum peat, and therefore, less aeration. Because of this propensity, coir should be used in mixes at lower %s than peat. Because of the tendency to compact, in the greenhouse industry, coir is primarily used in containers in sub-irrigation (bottom-watering) situations. Many sources produce coir that is high in soluble salts, so this can also be a negative issue.

Using coir as the primary component of soils virtually eliminates the possibility of using lime or dolomitic lime as a Ca source because of coir's high pH (6.0-7.0). Gypsum should be used as a Ca source, which helps eliminate coir's low S content. All coir products are very high in K, very low in Ca, and have a potentially high Mn content, which can interfere with the uptake of Fe in soils with a high % or coir.

I have coir done some testing of coir and coconut husk chips with some loose controls in place. After very thoroughly leaching and rinsing the chips and coir, I made a 5:1:1 soil of pine bark:peat:perlite (which I know to be very productive) and a 5:1:1 mix of CHCs: coir:perlite. I planted 6 cuttings of snapdragon and 6 cuttings of Coleus (each from the same plant to help reduce genetic influences) in containers (same size/shape) of the different soils. I added dolomitic lime to the bark soil and gypsum to the CHC/coir soil. After the cuttings struck, I eliminated all but the three strongest in each of the 4 containers. I watered each container with a weak solution of MG 12-4-8 with STEM added at each watering, and watered on an 'as needed basis', not on a schedule. The only difference in the fertilizer regimen was the fact that I included a small amount of MgSO4 (Epsom salts) to provide MG (the dolomitic lime in the bark soil contained the MG, while the gypsum [CaSO4] in the CHC/coir soil did not. This difference was necessary because or the high pH of CHCs and coir.) for the CHC soil.

The results were startling. In both cases, the cuttings grown in the CHC/coir soil exhibited only about 1/2 the biomass at summers end as the plants in the bark mix.

I just find it very difficult for a solid case to be made (besides "It works for me") for the use of coir or CHC's. They're more expensive and more difficult to use effectively. The fact that some believe peat is in short supply (no where near true, btw) is easily offset by the effect of the carbon footprint of coir in its trek to the US from Sri Lanka or other exotic locales.

That's the view from here. YMMV

Al

Bromeliads grow on trees. Clay does not.

In their natural environment, Bromeliads grow on organic matter and they get nutrition from it.

Coco Coir also provides a good source of nutrients for Bromeliads. Turface does not.

A good way to kill Bromeliads is to put them in a mineral soil.

Do you grow Bromeliads?

Since bromeliads grow on trees, is it then impossible to to grow them in containers? Coir, like peat is such a poor source of nutrients, and an unbalanced source at that, that it should be considered no source of nutrients in container culture. In fact, we should not depend on primary soil components of any container media as a source of nutrition because it breaks down so slowly that it cannot fill plant needs. Regardless of that fact, the grower needs to take responsibility for ensuring plants grown in container culture get the nutrients they need when they need them, and you cannot rely on the media alone to deliver those nutrients. Turface has excellent CEC compared to coir, and holds the nutrients supplied far longer than coir. Neither does it have some of the other problems associated with coir that I mentioned above. I've grown dozens of species of plants for extended periods in nothing but screened Turface. It's great for starting cuttings, and often I'll leave cuttings in the same starting medium for up to a year before repotting - often it's straight Turface, and they do fine.

Though I have no bromeliads now because I have my indoor growing area filled with about 75 tropical and subtropical trees and shrubs, I have grown them in the past, very successfully, in a mix of 1 part pine bark, one part screened Turface, and one part crushed granite.

What we grow containerized plants is very unimportant, as long as it holds air and water in the right proportions, provides anchorage for the plant, is durable and not phytotoxic. It also helps if the media or media ingredients don't bring with them inherent problems or issues to deal with, like coir does, but what we grow in is an individual choice we all have to make. Hopefully, as a result of our discourse, readers will be able to make a better informed choice.

Al

Metrosideros: As far as growing broms... I have another question about culture. My son wanted to help me water one day, so I said great, why don't you fill these cups. Well, now he wants to fill them daily. Is this going to hurt them or should I have him help some other way? He is five so some always splashes down on the potting medium, too :)...

I ended up planting them in a mix of miracle grow soil, perlite, a few bits of sphagnum, and orchid bark at this time. It is chunky but fast draining. The room they are in goes through high atmospheric humidity and then decreases a couple times a day. I am thinking of better ways to increase humidity, though. It was my understanding that the roots do less nutrient uptake compared to the leaves/cup. That was why I wondered about turface, more as an anchor. The 5 part bark, 1 part perlite, 1 part peat (ground brown or long fibered cut up?) sounds good, too, highly organic, very fast draining. The only coconut fiber I have is pot liners. I am not very familiar with it as a growing medium, but will keep my eyes open for it to see what it is like. Hmmmm, I wonder if the pot liners would be a good place to seed broms (if I ever get seeds).

Al, i am wondering something. Do you have trouble with quite a bit of turface coming through the holes when you water or is that just for the first couple times? I have some coleus cuttings struck in it just to see. I wondered if you used screen or something, or if it stopped after the first couple waterings.

I usually cover the drain holes with plastic fabric that you buy at hobby stores in 9x12 sheets. It's used for needlepoint projects. Small pieces of insect screening work about as well.

Al

Thank you, that makes sense :).

Hi Jsmom,

The pitcher of a Bromeliad should always have some water in it, if it is the type that has a pitcher. They can be watered freely, as long as they are well drained.

The bark, perlite, & peat growing medium sound alright. In their natural habitat Bromeliads anchor themselves on tree bark.

Be very careful about fertilizing; Bromeliads are very sensitive to fertilizer salts, and folks commonly kill them with too much care. If you feel you need to fertilize the Bromeliads at all, use something like Liquid Seaweed or other low analysis organic liquid fertilizer. Use a very low concentration of it (if the directions say use a tablespoon, use a teaspoon or less) and foliar feed them.

I grow Bromeliads at the base of trees (and in trees) in mossy organic soil (native to the area), and have never fertilized them. They are very successful.

Which species do you grow?

How do you load a picture...? I can show you. The only ones I know for sure: a pineapple top I am rooting, earth star, and tillandsia cyanea x something. I got a mix of brom pups from someone who had lost their tags. It sounded like me (lost tags), and the price was fair :)... Well, actually, I don't usually lose the tags, but I find them missing, and in their place I find dinosaurs, soldiers, cars, etc. It's kind of funny. Kind of. I think I will just keep rain water for broms, ludisia discolor, and maybe cordylines (nothing special). The closest I can come to growing in trees would be to anchor them to sphagnum posts, or try the cork covered pvc thing I read about. My plant room is a jungle right now. I have plants drug all over the place, Today, half the plants got a good foliar shower and I will spray neem again this evening. I have been finding a few insects, so am figuring to spray about once a week until they are gone.

Go to the Browse prompt below and click on it. If you have a photo file on your computer you can download photos through that.

I can ID the more common types, and maybe help with their care.

You can grow some Bromeliads on logs, but it is probably easier to deal with in a container with a well drained organic medium.

I tried to get them all at once and the pic was way too dark, so here are the first 3...

Second 3....

4 on the end...

This is the pineapple (still looking rough, but rooting and starting to grow, earth stars and tillandsia.

The middle plant might be an Aechmea or Billbergia. The two outside ones might be Neoregelia.
The one on the right, maybe Neoregelia carolinae 'Tricolor', the Blushing Bromeliad.
They all have similar care needs. Basically, moist & organic.

Most of your Bromeliads are similar wet loving plants. They will need to bloom to get an accurate ID.

The Pineapple, Ananas comosus 'Cayenne', can handle a mineral type soil with added compost and humus. It should also be drier than the other Bromeliads. It is a terrestrial type.

The Earth Stars, Cryptanthus zonatus 'Zebrinus' & Cryptanthus bivittatus should have an organic based acidic soil with some humus mixed in. They are terrestrial as well.

Thank you. I am going to tape the name to the pots of the ones you id'd :). You can even identify which pineapple? I looked at 3 stores to find one that wasn't dead at the top center. I threw in in the windowsill for about a week, then plunked it in a pot and just watered down the leaves a little, not the soil. It is in full sun. That is pretty much all I've been doing, trickling water down the center til a little reaches the soil. It started new growth. That was mostly an experiment to show the kids how pineapples are propagated. The fruit had seeds in it, so that was odd. The last time I grew one, it got pretty big and I gave it to someone that lived in FL to put in their yard, lol.

Dave: I must know ... what is the name of that beautiful Brom in your photo here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=7276812 Love it!

Hi Lin! That is Vriesea fenestralis. Netted Vriesea.

I'm guessing vriesia, maybe fosteriana.

Oh, sorry, you answered while I was window shopping :)

It sure is gorgeous!

I really like Brom's, don't know why I don't grow more of them except the lack of space. My sister and Brother in Law in Fort Lauderdale have/had some gorgeous Brom's in their yard for a couple of years. I keep forgetting to ask if they are still there, my brother in law said they were tired of them and were going to throw them away ... a common practice at their house! They aren't into gardening and usually hire someone to change things out when they get tired of it. I was hoping they would wait until I could get down that way and take them off their hands! Someone ID'd them for me as Aechmea blanchetiana and I sure would love to have these babies! I've got to remember to ask my sister if they still have them. This photo was taken last Christmas.

Nice plants Lin!

They do get quite large.

3j'smom: One of your Brom's looks like one I have that is planted in a hollowed out coconut and it's really grown a lot the past couple of years. I like that Cryptanthus at the 12 O'clock position in your last photo. I have a few Cryptanthus all stuck in the same pot.

Dave, is that the same one? Wow, that is huge! Love your lil'doggie!

3j'smom: The Nereogelia on the far right in your first photo looks somewhat like one I have called 'Zoe', the color got a lot more intense when I moved it to a position where it got more sunlight.

Here's the Noid Bromeliad planted in the coconut

I would love to see both of your plant collections!!! The little black cryptanthus is the one Dave tagged as zebrinus. If it ever grows pups, I'll share with you :). Your coconut idea is really great. I am sensing another Kroger project with the kids, lol. Okay kids, this is a coconut, this is coconut milk, give me the shell please...

I was studying the neoregelia family and they are neat. I never really studied the vriesea's before, but they have a lot of pretty plants, too. Sigh... I want a greenhouse.