Philosophy 102

Without exception everyone I've talked to loved the TT Wife. The last person I talked to said that her second one wasn't as good.

A Breath is good. But my favorite still is the first one. I can't believe that anyone could have kept me interested for this long . . .

Oh good! I was worried that A Breath... was going to be the last one in the series and I could barely stand it. Hmm. I thought I preordered that from Amazon.com. I better check.

Speaking of which, does anyone know anyone who works at Amazon.com? My dd just applied for a job there and I'm not ashamed to say I'm doing a little networking for her. She's still working at Nordstrom, but it's not a career position at all and she needs to move on. She was excited to see a listing at Amazon looking for people who speak French. She has a certification in business French and was hoping to find a job that would use it.

Laurie, those guys make me put my hands on my hips! How bold! Possibly they know that the flat is empty on weekends. Perhaps having someone stay in it while you are gone? I am reminded of a recent news story about a woman who put a hidden camera in her house after being burglerized. She hooked it up to her computer at work so she could check on her house regularly. Shortly thereafter, she watched while two men broke into her home and began going through things. She called the police and then watched while they surrounded the house and arrested the men. Caught red handed! What a story!

The story about the woman who caught the burglars with her camera is a great story! Pix, "those guys make me put my hands on my hips" - I love those words. Such an image! There is a farm somewhere along the 5 freeway in southern Oregon with a big sign on the fence that says "You loot we shoot."

Since I'm not all that keen on guns (and thankfully it is less of an issue here in the UK) - I was thinking of big versions of those sticky rodent traps - I'm absolutely opposed to using them for catching mice and rats, but big boy rats are fair game! Wouldn't it be wonderful to see them trying to shake them off. My idea of vengenance is self induced embarassment which stops short of humiliation.

Those glue traps are horrible, horrible, horrible, because they struggle. I saw one of those once and would also never use them. Big boy rats though, would (hopefully) be smart enough to know they were caught and not struggle until their feet tore off. Problem is, if they were wearing shoes they could just take them off and get away barefoot. That would indeed slow them down on the burgling intentions and bring on plenty of embarrassment and discomfort especially if it were rainy and cold.

I'm not a gun person myself, and maybe the sticky traps would stick on their pants.

Portland, in my imagination I was thinking pants too - especially if they are those ubercool under the bum waistband type! But I also want their shoes, and as they step out of the shoes, socks and pants and as they step out of the pants they fall on their bum - shall I continue?

Let's hope they don't fall after they remove the stuck undies - can't imagine coming home to that.

In her book 'Animal, Vegetable, Miracle' Barbara Kingsolver writes "We spend hours bent to our crops as if enslaved, only now and then straightening our backs and wiping a hand across our sweaty brow, leaving it striped with mud like some child's idea of war paint. What is it about gardening that is so addicting? That longing is probably mixed up with our DNA. Agriculture is the oldest, most continuous livelihood in which humans have engaged."

She goes on to write about how cultivation of crops allowed humans to control and increase their food supply, hence allowing them to settle in one place instead of moving around to hunt. Humans became able to sustain their family groups through the seasons, and groupings and villages and cities emerged.

I find this a most fascinating explanation of our love of gardening and running soil through our hands. And when you can't resist that beautiful plant you just have to have, you can attribute that need to your DNA.

Portland cited: "She goes on to write about how cultivation of crops allowed humans to control and increase their food supply, hence allowing them to settle in one place instead of moving around to hunt."

Portland, this may just be the clinician in me, but I always see this argument as a chicken and egg one. I don't disagree with Kingsolver about discovering being able to increase food, and thus settle, but I wonder if the settling is the primary locus. Agriculture(gardening) allowed people to rationalize socialization in a way that hunting does not - collecting seed, cultivating land, sharing effort, developing market trading (in a barter sense) all took, and offered, a sense of community. It removes some of the risk of an increasing population. I wonder if the initial desire is not only increased food, but also increased social relationships.

I am thinking.......

I am clearly lacking in imagination when it comes to large glue traps and the target population LOL. Good luck keeping them away from your home, however you do it. Maybe the headmistress look will be effective at least for a time.

I definitely do have a "love of running the soil through my hands" I don't know if it is DNA or some other irresistible force. I think some people feel this way about other things, like hiking in the mountains or sailing on the sea, or music or art. I think it has something to do with discovery, experimentaition, and creativity that all have a pull on the human soul along with our desire to belong and feel rooted and connected to our environment and to the people we share our lives with.

Personally,, I think it's in our DNA, the love of soil. Some people just don't get it, and I don't think it can be taught. I certainly didn't learn it from my folks. But I do so love the smell of good clean, humusy soil. And I can almost breathe a sigh of relief when I get the roots of plants covered with dirt. I liken roots without dirt to being like a fish out of water.

Personally, I think that plants make us cultivate them just as they do with the birds, bees and any other creature dependant/ fond of plants. (that's my excuse and I am sticking to it) ;)

This message was edited Oct 19, 2009 9:06 PM

I have so many thoughts about this.

Plants are smart, and can behave in ways to make us and other creatures insure their continuation. Interesting book - The Botony of Desire by Michael Pollan. So those pretty little innocent looking flowers and sweet scents are very manipulative.

Our DNA is constantly evolving to keep us alive and procreating. Our own individual DNA will not change but that of future generations will look a bit different. Also true for other creatures, including bugs. It's easy to make that connection to early humans and the beginning of agriculture.

Humans are social animals, and certainly cultivation of crops fosters this. It is also easy to see how our DNA might have evolved to keep us safer and procreating more by instilling the desire for socialization and living in groups, and crop cultivation followed.

One day the caveman had a little trouble finding the green leaves that he and his woman liked to nibble on with the meat he had speared. So he was late returning to the cave. He was thinking they might have to find a new cave, closer to the forest where plants were abundant, but his woman was reluctant to move, since she had finally managed to get their cave just like she wanted it. And now she was carrying his offspring. When he got home she began scolding him for taking so long, and accused him of lying in the forest daydreaming, and chewing on those funny leaves that made him euphoric. The next day while gathering leaves he noticed tiny shoots underneath the mother plant. He wondered if he could move those little shoots close to their cave, to avoid the shrill nagging of the woman. Meanwhile, the woman was bored with her chores of preparing the food her man brought home, and she wanted to try new leaves but her man was happy with the same-old-same-old. How could she possibly manage to gather leaves and take care of her baby at the same time? The next day a man and his pregnant woman passed by their cave in their search for a new home, and the woman gave birth in the nearby meadow. So the woman carried to her some leaves and a little bit of the rabbit her man had speared. But she had an ulterior motive - she needed another woman to talk to. And so it goes.......

That was wonderful! So enjoyed it - more please.

so much to talk about here that relate to my hunt in wash the lst 5 days. I collected rocks with lichens to propagate on my rocks. my motive is to propagate a totally dry lichen on all of my rocks. so I too found the plant I wanted and my creator placed that in my psyche too do.
second kathy I too loved the tt wife! I bought it at half priced books and enjoyed the arrival naked without control of the time and place. what an adventure!

On page 501 in the new Dan Brown book there is an explanation of why we garden. I read it in two days and loved it. Love the cave story, similar to the Jean Auel books

So Willow, do tell about Dan Brown's version of why we garden. Love to hear it!

OK and I quote "But once we realize that we are truly created in the Creator's image, we will start to understand that we, too, must be Creators."

That's an awesome book and a lot of what is in it is actually true. Of course, a lot of it isn't true as well since it's a fiction book. Still, I've known about the Institute for Noetic Sciences for years, but had completely forgotten about it until that book. So I joined the society. They have great conferences and downloads of lectures that will keep me in MP3 files for a long time!
Willow, I remember well the quote from the book. It is, indeed, completely true for me.

So, Azorina, does that mean that our plants actually want us to groom them? Maybe that's why I always think they've perked up just a little after I've paid them some attention - pruning out of control stems, taking off dead flower heads, etc. Maybe they like it.

Loved the book the Botany of Desire.

Here's a link to the science behind Dan Brown's book:
http://www.noetic.org/about/godeeper.cfm

Hold on to your minds. They are about to be blown.

Pix that is certainly interesting. I signed up for the newsletter.

Something I've often thought about is what exactly happens on a cellular level when you begin a new relationship. Other than the obvious physical attraction and rush of hormones. I think it's amazing how someone else can 'get into' your brain, and you into theirs. It's a great privilege to have space in another person's brain and I don't think that is respected enough.

As far as plants wanting us to groom them - we ask a lot from our plants and they most certainly want something more in return than water, nutrients, appropriate soil, and light. Give them good vibes!

Pix and Port-(vaudeville team") You both have fastinating minds

Sounds like a new varietal Wine...

owwhhhohhhhwwwwohhhwww. I can answer that, Portland - the hormone Oxytocin - the empathy hormone. Most present during birth (all mammals), the mother is overwhelmed with it during the birth process and has a procession of uses like helping the mother to forget the pain of giving birth while creating the empathic response to the new baby and triggering appropriate levels of lactation. It also triggers the bonding instinct in the new infant through scent.

According to Professor Peter Fonagy (chair of the Psychoanalysis unit at UC London), it is the hormone that makes us want to understand the other's mind - and it is present in men, but seems to be less often triggered. It is the availability through scent that helps us as adults to form relationships of depth.

TaDah - I love a bit of pendantry.

Had that experience with my infant granddaughter 3 yrs ago when she and her sibs were with us for 4 mos during a family illness.........those hormones must have been on an all time rampage ( minus the lactation, LOL) because my heart was broken when the kids returned home....missed all three but the baby the most. She was 4 mos.- 8 mos. when they were here, went from a baby who couldn't sit up without support to a toddling around the furniture delight in that time....I bonded with her so much that I felt like my own baby had been ripped out of my arms when they went back home...Of course it also gave me a deeper understanding of how my son and daughter-in-law felt when the kids first had to come this way 4 mos prior. I do have to say... without the slightest of bias....I have the most perfect grandkids ever! Wish they were closer!

LFS - what I like thinking about is just think how those kids will remember that time, missed their parents but comforted by the gp - and the sadsweet combination hopefully giving them empathy for others. Nice. And how lovely you were available to them, must have been terribly hard on your son and daughter in law.

I was going to say scent also. That is what does it for me. I love the smell of dogs feet. And my nose is in the dog fur all the time. And some aftershave, I want to turn around and follow them down the street.

Laurie, thank you for the explanation to my wonderings. It all makes perfect sense. And it explains a lot of the differences between men and women. Wouldn't it be interesting if we could somehow trigger the oxytocin in the brains of our men.......

I know I know - it wouldn't be practical for men because their nature and calling is to spread their seed. But once the seed is spread, how about sticking around for the little sapling?

Most men do and some don't.

And some stay some of the time but not others.

And others like to spread the seed around to many yards.

LOL. By the same token our female oxytocin, which is apparently quite easy to trigger, is causing us to be a partner in these capers.

Think of the possibilities. Suddenly all the men involved in both sides of a battle have their oxytocin stimulated simultaneously and end up shaking hands.

You can trigger it in men, Portland - you can actually buy Oxytocin on line - and you just waft it under the noses of the choosen man.

edited for misspelling oxytocin

This message was edited Oct 24, 2009 9:17 AM

If only men had been created for relationships and companionship. The race of man would have had no Darwinian concepts, wars would be absent and the cave man would have out populated the planet before we genetically improved. Hence the rise of the insect world. Before the cultural time of laws and governments there was value in the Goliaths, Sampsons, and even Plato appreciated the Spartan ethics. I see no change in the progression of man beyond application of laws. Hence the warrior has value today in keeping the law intact.

Men have primitive brains. They are not evoling and someday will be extinct. So said some scientist

A woman only needs to bare a child to discover the Warrior within. Perhaps the female version operates a bit differently, but I would have killed anyone trying to mess with my son. That eventually subsided as he got older, but I still have residual Warrior responses.

Women are weak and unable to learn said some scientists in the 1800's. Now we know different. I think many of us are such that when we die a library will burn, a great novel will end, and much will be lost.

"When each of us dies a library will burn, a great novel will end, and much will be lost . . ." I LOVE that, Steve.

I always thought of what the artist, philosopher, scientist, good person, had in their mind at death is missed by all. Only to down load it and pass it on. Maybe the future of mass terabytes.

I looked up oxytocin online and what a riot - you can buy a spray that promises all sorts of things. More sales, more promotions, more raises, more love, more trust, more sex. All that in a little spray bottle. Who knew.

Yesterday I went to a friend's home for a retirement party. He is a physician who has been working so many hours for so many years, and married to a wonderful woman who retired from being a therapist last year. Over the past year he was diagnosed with prostate cancer and when I first met them and saw their garden, it was a tangled mess and looked so sad and abandoned. They had simply been too preoccupied with illness to think about the garden. They live out in the country near Sandy, Oregon and have a lot of land. Well yesterday the garden looked wonderful, with some plants still blooming and the apple orchard full of fruit. The horses came running to the fence begging for apples. The herb garden still looks good, with only a few plants giving in to the colder weather. We were all so happy to see this couple thriving, along with their garden. He is doing well with his treatment and the prognosis is excellent. They have been very busy restoring their garden to it's formerly well-tended state. Definitely a garden reflecting the love and happiness of this couple.